Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
It's super early and loose but here is the list.
Main 61
19 Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
4 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
21 Spells
2 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
1 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
4 Daze
18 Lands
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
12 Spells
2 Duress
1 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
2 Artifacts
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
......
Otherwise the list is sweet. Shave a Lazav and a careful study.
The list started with 4 brainstorms. I needed a way to get creatures into the graveyard but not impact the strategy....
Otherwise the list is sweet. Shave a Lazav and a careful study.
I built a Grixis version of this deck and really liked have 4 faithless looting.
I'll try going down to 2 Careful Study and 3 Lazav.
What do you think of the sideboard?
I think it's better to just play out your threats and then have some incidental interactions with Lazav. Dreadnought can be played and then just sacrificed to it's own trigger, then you copy it for 1. Confidants will die from opponent's removal, so no real problem there (lol.) Careful Study just supercharges the interaction. I would try hard to get 4x Brainstorm/4x Careful Study in there, somehow. The weakest spot in your deck is actually Nimble Mongoose. He's outclassed by so many other threats. At least Bob draws you cards and Goyf gets huge.
I suggest:
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Brainstorm
+1 Careful Study
+2 Lands
I think your PW's are good (Veil gets your creatures in the graveyard as well) but with such a low land count you really need to be wary of too many 3 drops. With 2 more lands and the extra cantrips you should be able to hit 3 mana just fine, and also draw into your powerful cards more often. Speaking of powerful cards...no Force of Will? If you don't own forces I strongly suggest getting at least a 3rd Spell Pierce in the sideboard. Spell Snare is also very, very good in decks like this, especially on the draw.
Just some thoughts. I think Lazav is a 'cool card' trap, but hey, who am I to judge, I play some pretty janky shit.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Thank you for your comments, I appreciate the feedback.
I put a lot of thought into having nimble in the deck.
Because of how Lazav works I can copy a nimble for 1 mana in response of it targeted. The worst feel bad moment is when you final get a Dreadnought out to just have someone Plow it.
More times then not have I just copied nimble to protect the Lazav itself without having anything else in the yard.
I'll try a build with Nimble, but have the 1 mana shroud ability attached to a creature is super powerful.
Sorry didn't fully respond to all your comments.
I didn't include Force of Will as it's just bad to play that will Bob in the deck.
Have access to 4 Thoughtseize helps in that role of taking cards that I can't deal with.
I quite like the goose interaction...but I can see sideing some out a lot of games. It's fantastic vs miracles and catching people by surprise with Lazav but meh much of the other time. No fow is OK in the md imo but I would definitely put them in the board then.
That's reasonable, but I don't think it's a recipe for success when you have one conditional creature in order to accommodate another conditional creature (Goose for Lazav.) On top of that, you have yet another conditional creature with Dreadnought. It's very cool, but very conditional. I'm no expert on RUG Delver, but some lists have gravitated away from Mongoose and instead play Hooting Mandrills and even Bomat Courier. I don't advocate for high cost creatures, but there are at least a few players moving away from Goose because it's too anemic in the metagame.
What about Entomb? I could easily see that as a better way to set up Lazav than Careful Study. You could even pull off a Death's Shadow trick and play Reanimate (all your dudes are super cheap) to get them back. Entomb sets you up with any creature that you need (Goose, Dreadnought, toolbox) that could even be exploited out of the board (Reclamation Sage, Scavenging Ooze, etc.) Honestly, I think something like Shardless Agent would be very cool in here, especially without any real countermagic to speak of (besides Daze, really) so cascading should be really decent. You can set it up with Brainstorm or just get pure value.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
list looks cool, though I'd definitely be playing 4 Brainstorm
Probably Delver over Goyf? that way you can curve out better, and are less reliant on green. I like that Green gives you Mongoose, no other color gives a creature that will protect Lazav, but at the same time, green doesn't really give you much else. Red gives Izzet Charm for an instant speed and flexible discard outlet.
If we're sticking to green, I'd probably go
4 Goose
3 Lazav
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fatal Push
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
A bit more aggressive than your list, with less draw, but StifleNought seems like a tempo-aggro deck, we don't want long drawn out games. can bring in library from the board and that kind of thing if you want though. I say this having never played a Dreadnought, though, so take it as you will.
what kind of results have you been having? It seems interesting to work on. I'm probably gonna start getting into the archetype broadly speaking, the dreadnoughts are in the mail
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
UR is the most common setup; just go back 2-3 pages and read some of the lists, they are still relevant. For me, the biggest roadblock to UR was the Volcanics. UW lets me play shocklands but have Swords to Plowshares (for a 2-card combo of 'gain 12 life') and Stoneforge Mystic (jitte and bskull both recover life totals fast.)list looks cool, though I'd definitely be playing 4 Brainstorm
Probably Delver over Goyf? that way you can curve out better, and are less reliant on green. I like that Green gives you Mongoose, no other color gives a creature that will protect Lazav, but at the same time, green doesn't really give you much else. Red gives Izzet Charm for an instant speed and flexible discard outlet.
If we're sticking to green, I'd probably go
4 Goose
3 Lazav
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fatal Push
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
A bit more aggressive than your list, with less draw, but StifleNought seems like a tempo-aggro deck, we don't want long drawn out games. can bring in library from the board and that kind of thing if you want though. I say this having never played a Dreadnought, though, so take it as you will.
what kind of results have you been having? It seems interesting to work on. I'm probably gonna start getting into the archetype broadly speaking, the dreadnoughts are in the mail
Regarding Lazav and the BUG setup...it's all-in on the graveyard, but not nearly as powerful as Reanimator variants or dredge. Goose, Goyf, and Lazav are all hosed together. Delver is a decent idea to diversify, but are you just a bad Team America without Force of Will at that point? In my experience, Dreadnought is challenging to make work already. Force of Will is really important to get a fast Nought and protect it (along with Daze/Spell Pierce for cheap counterspells.) That's why the backup plan is usually Standstill and Mishra's Factory; they approach from a completely different angle (Nought is for the short game, Factory/Standstill is for the long game.) This is what gives StifleNought decks their unique appeal: a control deck that can grind out games OR win turn 3-4 with a fat 12/12 trampler.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
list looks cool, though I'd definitely be playing 4 Brainstorm
Probably Delver over Goyf? that way you can curve out better, and are less reliant on green. I like that Green gives you Mongoose, no other color gives a creature that will protect Lazav, but at the same time, green doesn't really give you much else. Red gives Izzet Charm for an instant speed and flexible discard outlet.
If we're sticking to green, I'd probably go
4 Goose
3 Lazav
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fatal Push
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
A bit more aggressive than your list, with less draw, but StifleNought seems like a tempo-aggro deck, we don't want long drawn out games. can bring in library from the board and that kind of thing if you want though. I say this having never played a Dreadnought, though, so take it as you will.
what kind of results have you been having? It seems interesting to work on. I'm probably gonna start getting into the archetype broadly speaking, the dreadnoughts are in the mail
Thank you for your feedback.
I'll give your list a try. The idea behind this deck was to do build around Lazav and take full advantage of the ability. Unfortunately delver isn't a great target to copy as it will just be a 1/1 every time I copy it. For the most part Lazav ends up being Goys 5,6 and 7 in most games. The main goal is not to combo off but that deck has many ways to do it. Based on some feedback yesterday here is my updated list I ran last night.
BUG Lazav:
Maindeck (61)
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
3 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
1 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
4 Daze
2 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Duress
1 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
Illusionary Mask is bugged on Mtgo FYI. If a creature comes into play face down as a morph and gets bolted as a 2/2 it should flip, however on mtgo it goes to the graveyard. :(
Played to a 5-2 record in the Finnish legacy nationals. 109 players. Sadly my engine started a bit too late and I starded the tournament with a 0-2 record.
7 fetch lands
3 Volcanic
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Delver
3 Dreadnought
3 Lavamancer
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Bolt
2 Vapor Snag
4 Stifle
SB:
3 Surgical
3 REB
3 Abrade
2 TNN
2 Pierce
2 Fluster
R1, Turbo Depths, 0-2
Never saw any snags and he comboes through double wastelands two times.
R2, Turbo Depths, 1-2
Never saw any snags and he comboes through double wastelands two times. (deja vu, huh!) I manage to steal one with delver beats.
R3, Grixis Control, 2-1 (3-0)
Standstill is just too much ca. I lost game 2, because I didn't chump an Angler and played around edict: he killed me with double bolt. He was dead to TNN next turn, but well.
R4, UR Delver, 2-0
Steal the first game with delver and lavaman. Next one is easy with dreadnought, that he didn't see coming.
R5, Lands, 2-1
Scoop the first one early, TNN takes home the second. Third one is tight but I manage to overwhelm his mazes with 6-7 creatures.
R6, Infect, 2-0
Easy two games with this much removal and counters.
R7, The Rock, 2-0
Snares hit very well both games. Game two is very grindy and I had to fight through 2 resolved Lilianas without seeing any factories. But standstill was a house.
I wouldn't change anything and the list felt very solid. I tested everything for a very long time so I wasn't surprised. I honestly didn't think that the depths match up was that bad and maybe I just got unlucky. Sorry if someone wanted to read longer match descriptions, maybe I can open them up a bit more if someone wants.
Nice job Yan, 5-2 is pretty dang good, shame your car didn't start or you could have made it pretty far!
I played the deck for the first time tonight, managed to 4-0 our weekly here, so the beginner's luck was with me I suppose. Here is a list I kind of scrapped together, comments welcome:
2 Volc (that's all I have)
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Tarn (don't have all 4)
1 Misty
1 Mesa
2 Delta
4 Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver
2 Lavamancer
1 TNN
4 Bolt
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trickbind
1 Vision Charm
4 Standstill
SB
3 Surgical
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrade
2 Chandra, ToD
2 Misdirection
1 Fluster
1 Spell Snare
1 Teferi's Protection
I built the deck mostly choosing cards based on the fact that I wanted to play them
Rd 1 - Burn
Game 1 I get a turn 2 dreadnought and he can't race it. Game 2 he decides not to kill my delver and I drop a standstill, delver eventually gets there. This person was somewhat new to the format, so made some suboptimal plays.
Rd 2 - Sneak and Show
Game 1 he just takes me down. Game 2 we both mull to 5, and I just drop a standstill on turn 2 with nothing under it. But I draw a factory soon, he breaks it to cantrip. I draw into another standstill, drop a second factory; he's just buried and factories get there. Game 3 I delver him out.
Rd 3 - UR Delver
Game 1 he wins cuz delver is flying and grim lavamancer doesn't care about blockers. My dreadnought comes a turn too late and he clocks me out before it matters. Game 2 I land the Dreadnought on turn 3 with the uncounterable Trickbind and that's all she wrote. Game 3 is more grindy but again ends with stiflenought for the win.
Rd 4 - Dredge
Game 1 he mulls to 5 but it's God's Perfect 5 with LED, Faithless, 2 dredgers, and a land (or something silly like that). I'm dead. Game 2 I manage to slow him down a bit, stifle a colosseum, and make my lavaman kill himself to exile his bridges. Then I assemble the 12/12 and my boy takes over the game. Game 3 is similar, turn 2 he therapies me, and I have stifle + nought in hand. I brainstorm, see a second dreadnought. I hide the whole combo and he names dreadnought, takes the redundant one. Luckily the rest is safe, I put it out there. But he gets a 16/16 grave troll. So we stare each other down but I have lavaman who slowly burns him out and that's all she wrote.
8-3 in games, 4-0 in matches.
Some observations
- the deck is super fun, and everyone compliments it for just being a sweet deck. Plus you get to play vision charm.
- spell snare felt really weak, maybe that's just the matchups.
- I love how we can delver people but also can take the line of just dropping a 12/12 and making them deal with it
- izzet charm is a card I want to try out, seems very useful
- might move TNN to the board, I like Yan's idea on that, and 3 grim lavamancer sounds good in the MD as the card is amazing in a lot of fair matchups
- 8 colorless lands put colored mana at a real premium, wish there was some way to fix that but probably there isn't
Any tips appreciated! Thank you introducing me to a great deck and I look forward to seeing the Dread in people's faces as I bring them to Nought in the future!
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
Heh, car worked just fine :D it was my "personal gaming engine" that didn't start the way I wanted (=0-2 start) I'm old I guess.
Anyway, congrats on your finish! Your matchups seemed to have been on the easy side of things, but that's just good. Also SnT and dredge are one of those decks that Snare is completely dead against, so that's why they probably felt weak.
My version is obviously not leaning as much on Dreadnought as everyone elses, but I can see both sides of the argument. 3 is enough for me as I board them out a lot against most of the fair decks.
Snare is very good against some decks, dead in others. It's decent against Miracles, Grixis Control, Storm, Burn, Stoneblade. It's terrible against super linear decks that have alternative engines (D&T, Goblins, Dredge, Lands, Depths.) I've tried it a ton (considering I only have 1 Force) but it still just doesn't do a ton. I've always found Spell Pierce to be a better 1 mana counterspell.
I've done really well at weeklies with Dreadnoughts as well, even with my sub-optimal lists, mostly because of 2 reasons: people don't expect Dreadnought or Standstill, and the format is ill-equipped to deal with big tramplers.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I disagree with some of the decks you listed. Against DnT and Goblins, snare is still okay if you deal with their caverns. Atleast I have 15 other cards in my 75 that are worse than them, nothing spectacular though. Against Lands and Depthst, you can counter their tutors, loams, hexmages. Just delaying that loam for one turn can really make the difference in a tempo deck like this.
However, I do think they are quite bad (=other cards are better) against all the delver decks (not UR, but that's actually burn), SnT, dredge and elves, and some other not-so-played-decks. Against everything else, I think it's far above decent. I can see where your feeling comes though, as I think FoW is actually very crucial to this deck and when you try to replace them with something else, it just won't feel right. If I would have the same problem, I would probably just max out on misdirections and go all in on resolving dreadnought and protecting it at all cost.
There's a big difference between 'not dead/still ok' and 'good'. I agree that it can sometimes be ok (IF you deal with Cavern, IF they don't have an Aether Vial.) My first cut against Vial decks is usually Daze, followed by Spell Pierce, but Spell Snare isn't far behind. Force of Will at least counters a t1 Vial. This is one of the bigger reasons why splash colors are so important. Red gives you bolts, Abrade, Pyroclasm, and other options. White gives you Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, and Supreme Verdict.
Against the delver decks Spell Snare counters: Hymn to Tourach, Diabolic Edict, Bitterblossom, Snapcaster Mage, Young Pyromancer, and Tarmogoyf. I would feel a lot better keeping Spell Snare in against Delver than against anything playing Aether Vial.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Obviously there is FoW and wasteland to answer those things, that is the crucial thing that your version is missing half of, which is why I can understand that you don’t like Snare. I would never cut those two against vial/cavern before I’d cut snare, but I have 15 worse cards in the 75, so for me it’s a fine card to have.
For me, delver decks are UB Shadow, Grixis delver, RUG delver. Shadow might run some number of edicts (0-2). Grixis might have pyromancer (some don’t) and RUG has goyfs (some don’t).That is all. I stand by my claim that it is not worth it to run Snare against max 4 spells in opponents deck that they might not even have.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Pierce as a substitute for that Snare slot, if I want to hedge more against SnT and delver decks but as of now, I think those matchups are fine even with this setup and I’m better of having Snare main and Pierce in the sideboard. This is one of those things that can change though.
Totally agree. All I mean to say is that Spell Snare's performance is hit/miss based on matchup, and it's usefulness is really determined by the metagame. If Storm, Maverick, and Jund were a DTB's I'd be maindecking 2 copies, easy (regardless of Force of Will count) because of how good it is in those particular matchups. For now, in my local metagame, I can justify 1 Spell Snare main but that's about it. I don't have a lot of RUG Delver, people have jumped onto the Shadow bandwagon, which is as you say (Snare is bad against them.)
My correlation with Spell Pierce is in regards to the control matchups; Grixis and Miracles are both pretty soft to a Spell Snare (generally) because they have a bunch of juicy targets (Hymn, Snapcaster, Counterspell, Strix.) Spell Pierce also helps win counter wars, so you basically want both in those control matchups. I wasn't suggesting one over the other; Spell Pierce goes back and forth between main/side for me (again, that is because I only have 1 Force ATM.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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