I am skeptical as well, especially since t1 Delver is really strong. I might end up cutting 2x Gargoyle/2x Charm to get the Delvers back in. It makes the deck a little more heavy on threats (14), which should be fine. That still gives me 24 instants/sorceries to feed delver synergies. It might be correct to just play 4 Delver/4 Dread/4 Scroll. That gives me a threat on each point of the curve. (I'm counting Dreadnougt as a 2 drop.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
One thing that is interesting about Gargoyle, in itself, is that it has 5 power. Which means, in the magical christmas-land of convenient math, 12 ('naught) + 5 (Gargoyle) + 3 (Bolt) has your opponent dead. Of course, that is a great deal of contingent things, two of which "need" Scroll to pull off, but it's not impossible, per se.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
This thread has been moving a lot faster than I expected but it’s basically as Fox said. Once you get Scroll in play you don’t need as many lands. We are mostly free/1-2 cmc besides It, and you also need juice for it. So you make lands into 2/2s as much as you can and use the gas from the draw to apply more pressure or interact. (I play 4 force will 2 force negation 4 daze as my disruption suite)
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I acknowledge this is true, but what does Fathom Seer leave on the table when your Scroll of Fate isn't there, or has been dealt with? Stifle-Nought is a strong enough combo to stand on its own, and even Stratus Dancer doesn't suck after flipping, but Seer... I can't really see it.
This hint now makes me think, if playing Chalice on our own is a good idea. What do you think about a core like this:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Myr Superion
X Trinket Mage
4 Scroll of Fate
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
The benefits of Mask are: plays well with Chalice and does not disturb Trinket Mage (unlike Orb).
I think Trinket Mage has been too slow for legacy since late 2011. The thing about stompy shells is that they really can't handle their own variance, and this will become a more pressing problem if you're running 4x Mask on top of 4x Scroll. When we start reaching for cards like Myr Superion (which could also have been Lupine Prototype), it's best to remember that playing Goyf alongside Dreadnought disappeared in late 2011 as well. Power without protection (Sol Lands) and power without a plan (Goyf) are not the best launching point for Dreadnought.
My list runs green for Sylvan Safekeeper, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library and a small Crop Rotation package in the sideboard.
Thanks for your insights. Myr Superion was just an idea, because it can be "cast" off Mask and Scroll and is colorless (for Stompy shell). Lupine Prototype still suffers the same problem (can't attack/block most of the time).
I am sorry, I am not too deep into the metagame in order to know, when and why certain cards (here Goyf and Trinket Mage) have disappeared from consideration.
I also know that blue Standstill variants are discussed here, but just wanted to provide some thoughts for a Stompy shell.
Also, I don't understand your last sentence. Power = Naught, protection = Sol lands (???), plan = Goyf?
The protection should come from the usual lock pieces (Spheres, Chalice).
I really have no clue if this is feasible or if it suffers from even more variance than other stompy shells, but I probably give it try.
With Sol Lands you can't really react to what your opponent is doing, you're just putting stuff on table and hoping it's good enough. When this is your game plan, we have to ask why we don't take 16 slots (Mask/Scroll/Nought/Myr) and make it 8x slots of Rabblemaster/Warboss + 8x "must-counter" cards. Dreadnought in this shell isn't enabling a novel axis of interaction, but you would have chosen a build order loss vs Null Rod effects. This is a significant problem with Null Rod on a GSZ bear and other Chalice decks (already fairly immune to your Chalice) having 4x Karn. The Sol Lands, and cards they enable, have a very hard time protecting themselves from problems like these.
Goyf builds have a 2cmc sorc-speed guy that you kinda can't ever play into open mana ~ removal (moreso if they're on SCM). Goyf is also really bad against Storm; you're just asking to die to a turn 1 discard spell if you then tap out into them. This is the "no plan" aspect of Goyf: congrats on having an efficient threat that isn't going to work and doesn't become better in the setting of Dreadnought tech. This isn't just a Goyf issue, it's any card that looks like it. We'll see if Gargoyle can play differently in the setting of Vision Charm, but I think we've got the same problem of it being a dubious 2 mana play, and waiting for 3 mana (Vision Charm to protect) has a conflict with wanting to use 3 mana on Scroll. Reversing the play pattern [i.e. no play on turn 2, Scroll in Gargoyle face-down on turn 3] is pretty risky, going all-in on combat damage in the PW-phase of the game while Daze and Wasteland are dying in your hand, but can at least be turned into 2/2s.
The no-text efficient beater really only performs in legacy if you can forego playing it because you have a Standstill-type card in your hand (ignore removal Snap-removal) - for most generic beater [Goyf] decks that Standstill-type card is Wrenn and Six.
Great analysis on the Null Rod effects issue.
However it's hard for me to follow why a Goyf-like beater is only good if you play Standstill or Wrenn & Six instead in order to ignore removal.
You want to say it's better to first stabilize the board (Standstill or recurring Wastelands) before throwing out the finishers?
Then, it doesn't explain why Goyf is bad in this deck, because you play Standstill... and it doesn't even require Vision Charm to do anything.
Goyf builds were always 3 color because going UG is suspect. The reason he fell out of favor is 3c mana bases are very suspect because of our mana base of 7 colorless lands. Its explosive but the manabase ran like 18-19 nonbasics (similiar to RUG) but only 13 colored sources. So its alot easier to get mana restricted.
I do think Goyf and Scroll could be fun tho. You would have to go something probably like (3 Factory 3 Waste 7 fetch 5 duals 2 islands.) if you run Goyf over Gargoyle and go 3c you also have zero need for vision charms
Ways that Goyf works are:
1- Goyf, opponent loses turn killing it. Next Arcanist, opponent loses turn killing it. Then JTMS or Wrenn, opponent loses the game. (you can change the card names to Strix/SCM/SFM/etc, but this is the idea behind every tap out and jam value pile that has ever existed).
2- Goyf is highest cmc threat in a low mana environment (this stopped working for RUG Delver ~5 years ago).
3- Goyf is in the deck, but the power resides in a different not-creature 2 drop payoff.
When you start stacking up 2-drop sorc-speed threats, you're not just stranding Delver/Wasteland/Daze, but you're also very likely actively reducing Delver's flip-rate. Goyf ends up pricing you into a really questionable zero-tempo quagmire, and when your fix is making 12/12s [with cards that don't really have text for of from Goyf] you're not actually getting yourself out of that situation. You'd be using Goyf to make a non-harmonious bad deck [bad = tier 2ish trading consistency for power], but the real problem is that the deck would be *worse* than existing tier 1-1.5 decks. Playing bad decks is fine, playing worse decks not so much.
I'm getting familiarized with the comp rules on phasing and manifest to prepare, but I have a question on phasing I can't seem to find the answer to (should it ever come up):
Can I phase out my Winter Orb with Vision Charm during my untap step so I can untap my lands? As I understand it, phasing happens before the untap step but Vision Charm lets me phase an artifact out at instant speed. I'm not sure if these abilities 'stack' like normal and I can phase out Winter Orb before Orb prevents my lands from untapping.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The first part of every untap step is phasing in your things, then you move to the untapping (which means Winter Orb is on again, so only 1 land untaps). Doing the Winter Orb trick while advancing a gameplan largely falls under Metallic Rebuke. There is no priority to cast Vision Charm during the untap step.
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