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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #3981
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Edit: technically, pre-SCM Goyf could be added to the tier 0 list; what a horribly designed card. Effectively protection from red, and so good you basically had to run it to beat it, and the dumbest part was it couldn't even trade with itself in combat. Really though wtf, why was this card not */* or 1+*/*.
    Mark Rosewater in a 2008 interview for The Magic Show #79 - The Morningtide After: "When I made it, it was 3 mana and */*."
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNfxf8v3F4) Go to 06:41.

    Sam Stoddard mentions Tarmogoyf as being a developmental mistake, although Stoddard wasn't on the team when Tarmogoyf was being developed (Stoddard started at WOTC in 2012):
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...kes-2014-06-13

  2. #3982

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    There are some interesting cards in Throne of Eldraine that could be interesting in Stifle-Nought



    this one in a controlish approach to the deck can block fast opponent creatures like Delver of Secrets and be a slow but nice tutor in the mid-late game.



    this one in the Vision Charm lists could be added to make that instant spell even better in the deck, both to protect him and "level him up". Sometimes Vision Charm is waiting in our hand waiting to find a Phyrexian Dreadnought

    I was thinking to something like this

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Augur of Bolas or Narset, Parter of Veils
    3 Vantress Gargoyle
    2 Renegade Doppelganger or True-Name Nemesis or Scroll of Fate

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Preordain
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Vision Charm

    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    6 Snow-Covered Island

  3. #3983
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Fae of Wishes is too slow. Vantress Gargoyle isn't getting played without Scroll of Fate (ignore defender text), but the real issue with the card is that you still die to Goyf b/c Goyf will be a 5/6 vs your deck. In terms of deck structure, we're never playing Augur of Bolas, but beyond this you have too many not-spells to play Delver of Secrets. The threat package of Delver + Gargoyle + Dreadnought + up to 3x Scroll of Fate doesn't really seem like a great plan due to how passive it is (adds too much need to connect with Dreadnought); but the important thing here is that every card past this point is going to be an instant or sorcery. Just want to quickly revisit that initial point about Gargoyle - this list is still dying to Goyf decisively.

    In terms of UR builds, possible tools include:
    Bonecrusher Giant - I guess this flips Delver?
    Redcap Melee - kills Wrenn, has text which discourages interaction with Factory, but isn't very maindeck'able.

    For UB builds:
    Drown in the Loch - does everything you want, upgrade to card like Dimir Charm.
    Blacklance Paragon - Goyf killer, anti-burn, anti-PW, plays nicely with Standstill.

    For [probably] not-Dreadnought harder control:
    Lochmere Serpent - interesting concept for pitches to FoW yard hate which can be maindeck'd. Need a card like Collective Brutality to justify.
    Murderous Rider - removal & wincon, combo with JTMS -1 self.

    For UW builds:
    Dance of the Manse - oh this card is a lot worse than Noxious, but I'm loving the idea of Teferi +1 -> EoT x=3 bring back Nought x2 + 1x Standstill.
    Deafening Silence - easy sideboard choice
    Giant Killer - I mean...it's playable, but it's worthless vs lots of combo

    For any Nought build:
    The Magic Mirror - this sits in SB, playable only with Karn.
    Emry, Lurker of the Loch - this is basically an upgraded Hanna, Ship's Navigator. Best for UW (Karakas), but likely the most difficult card in the set to pass up b/c Scroll of Fate is a card.
    Witching Well - easy enough to understand, combo with Emry.
    Witch's Oven - this one is interesting with Nought, requiring lots of build-around. Definitely using Emry, but there needs to be a payoff to looping Noughts into +2 artifacts on board...

    Some honorable mentions:
    Questing Beast - reasonable card to own if under $10
    Witch's Cottage - no point to this yet, but clearly an interesting Fetch target
    Once Upon a Time - looks like modern has already ruined price of this card, if price crashes consider spec'ing
    Clackbridge Troll - too expensive for legacy, but probably underpriced for standard implications [???]
    Wishclaw Talisman - janky, too much build-around at this time. would consider buying them if ~$1

    Notable mtg finance for playables:
    Blacklance ~1.50 (see price history of Glint-Sleeve Siphoner as they are likely to be used in similar amounts in standard as 2-drop anti-PW)
    Witching Well $0.25 (seems underpriced given Serum Visions is ~$4 card)
    Emry ~$7 (very likely overpriced, might pick up 2 though)
    Murderous Rider (overpriced, unlikely to be correctly priced until rotation)
    Bonecrusher Giant (overpriced, would not pay >$1 for this)

  4. #3984
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    For mono-blue I'm only adding in a couple of new cards: Scroll of Fate and Narset, Parter of Veils. The rest of this stuff is just blah, in my humble opinion.

    4x Delver
    4x Dreadnought
    2x Scroll of Fate
    2x (Open slot for threats)
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force
    1x Spell Snare
    2x Spell Pierce
    1x Torpor Orb
    3x Vapor Snag
    3x Dismember
    1x Open
    4x Wasteland
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Misty Rainforest
    7x Island
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  5. #3985
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I would not play any variant of this deck without 4x Scroll of Fate at the moment. I have it as a 4 of in my build and it's consistently the best card in my deck.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Brazen Borrower 1UU

    Creature — Faerie Rogue

    Flash

    Flying

    Bazen Borrower can block only creatures with flying.

    3/1

    Petty Theft 1U

    Instant — Adventure

    Return target nonland permanent an opponent controls to its owner’s hand.



    Yesss, I think we got our card! (non-red/white variants, that is).

    This replaces the necessary-evil Echoing Truth that's been floating in & out of my MD as an out to Marit Lage, Chalice & Bridge. I'll still keep an E Truth in the side for ANT Goblins but this is a lock for 1 (possibly 2) in the main for me. The extra 2-for-1 in builds w/o Standstill is just super sweet.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @Mr. Safety: I still don't understand why you think you need 6 creature removal (2 more than Shadow) when you can just ignore/overpower all but a handful of creatures (Thalia, Arcanist, Griselgoof, Painter & other odd combo or hate bears). The Snags are great for ML, but I'd play 1 Dismember tops & at least split 2/1 between Snag/ E Truth. And welcome our new friend, Clepto Faerie!

  8. #3988
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    @Mr. Safety: I still don't understand why you think you need 6 creature removal (2 more than Shadow) when you can just ignore/overpower all but a handful of creatures (Thalia, Arcanist, Griselgoof, Painter & other odd combo or hate bears). The Snags are great for ML, but I'd play 1 Dismember tops & at least split 2/1 between Snag/ E Truth. And welcome our new friend, Clepto Faerie!
    That is fair. I think the new bounce faerie will make its way on here, maybe putting the extra dismember to the board.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    I would not play any variant of this deck without 4x Scroll of Fate at the moment. I have it as a 4 of in my build and it's consistently the best card in my deck.
    Agreed. If you take fox's advice that a deck needs more win con's than just 12/12 beats, Scroll of Fate really opens up deck design in some interesting directions. I'm brewing up a nought urborg sol land ritual list, that is running 3-4x contamination. In addition to ophiomancer, the scroll of fate can recur 2/2's that can feed a contamination hard lock. I'm throwing in some discard, hexmage's and depths in for good measure as well. lol Scroll is amazing

  10. #3990
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Dreadstill is gaining 3 playable cards from Throne.

    The faerie like you guys mentioned is SUPER good with standstill since it has flash and can bounce stuff. It gives us unreal game vs depths g1 as well

    The Gargoyle seems really good in vision charm builds

    AND THIS!!! We can play it as a 1 of to tutor for then bounce with Daze
    http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/mysticsanctuary.html
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist




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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    That is some ugly art on Hushbringer - it's like someone pasted their picture on some fashion magazine backdrop.
    Card is unplayable sadly (easy to kill card type, no realistic ability to tutor, and worse than Scroll). Nice that they're already tagging more onto Torpor Orb effects, but we are still waiting for "activated abilities of creatures can't be activated" + "casting spells doesn't cause things to trigger" on top of Torpor text.

    On Gargoyle, the card seems either like a trap or something can't be played alongside Delver. The new land is a great 1x though if you can find room (harder to get 3 other Island cards on board). In builds with multiple Scroll, I think you probably want to try and work in some spell that is card-positive to keep the 2/2 train rolling.

    On Brazen Borrower, any card that is V-Clique without a fail ability (ETB in an anti-ETB deck...) is always going to be fine. I think I'd still prefer Nimble Obstructionist though as it has text vs Storm (Borrower can't bounce anything to ruin an Infernal Tutor), and Obstructionist protects Factory under a Standstill. Outside of Depths matchup, Borrower can always bounce a Walker which is cool. More important to have Borrower if the deck can't kill a Containment Priest (mono-U), though this is only so effective. I think either Obstructionist or Borrower are fairly high risk maindeck choices against Delver. (if they counter the bounce aspect, you lose creature side to graveyard too right?)

    When I read a card like Borrower, I'm more interested in dumb stuff like Gilded Drake.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Just so everyone sees it, this card is belongs in the mono-blue version. I will probably get at least 3 in there, maybe a whole set. It replaces Vapor Snag while also providing a threat in a compact package. Sold.



    At this point, I don't think it's correct to play True Name Nemesis. Torpor Orb is good enough for maindeck play, which is a non-bo with TNN. The tempo, and card advantage, of Brazen Borrower is fantastic. It is also conveniently 2/3 mana to get around Chalice@1. Pretty happy about this. The 'only blocking flyers' clause is pretty much irrelevant; the only thing you really want to block in a pinch is Marit Lage anyways.
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  14. #3994
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    At this point, I don't think it's correct to play True Name Nemesis. Torpor Orb is good enough for maindeck play, which is a non-bo with TNN.
    Not to refute your points on the Faerie, but I just want to point out that Torpor Orb does not interact with TNN.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Not to refute your points on the Faerie, but I just want to point out that Torpor Orb does not interact with TNN.
    I think the bigger point is that TNN can't justify a slot in the face of Scroll. Any card at this cost has to provide an effect the deck wants, and having an alternate cost of helps qualify Borrower.

  16. #3996

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    One cool interaction I tried a while back was using Vision Charm to fuel Gurmag Angler, too.
    The Night HE Came Home.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Fueling delve like this turns these creatures into another self-2 for 1. A more powerful use in UB is combinations of Vision Charm and Darkblast to tutor targets to the yard for JVP while simultaneously flipping him into a the form that can cast a tutored card.

    With DRS banned, symmetry is less critical; but the key delve amount with uninteruptable priority is 5 (Charm + 4 mills), which favors Tasigur. It's not possible to get to 6 cards in yard without passing priority; again, no longer as relevant b/c of a ban.

    When discussing UB, Petal is notable as a better source of turbo delve mana. Additionally, Petal allows a card like Rite of Undoing to become much more playable with mechanically precise play: announce target Petal + opponent target, move to pay tapping Petal for color, move to delve getting second mana from Petal.

    The tldr: milling with V Charm solely for delve mana is a generally losing line. Note that UB does not have reach, translating to multiple turns for an opponent to punish this play pattern.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Got to play again today, but only went 1-2.

    R1 vs ANT: 2-0. Game 1 they died b/c they drew Daze against Teferi (max punish an Infernal Tutor). Game 2 just not really winnable for them, too many derpy white cards; they did get close with a Tendrils for 18 (vs 18 life), but I used StP on Factory and they lost.

    R2 vs Elves: 0-2. Don't see any removal either game, but I think both games were winnable with more yolo-ish play game 1 [turbo-Nought, no counter backup] and excessive slow-play in game 2 (here casting a turn 3 Ashiok instead of waiting for land #4 lost to Dwynen b/c Karakas was tapped down to cast and I had to FoW which destroyed my gameplan). I think this matchup is still pretty heavily skewed in my favor with absurd amounts of random hate (Keg, Ratchet, Canonist, Ashiok, Torpor, CP, and all the wishing + E-Tutors + recursion into StPs and Wraths). I could have brought in Humility as well, I just don't think it's particularly necessary.

    R3 vs Hootie and the ProFish (anemic build of RUG with Delver stranded by himself as the only 1cmc threat + Wrenn + Goyf + Hootie + TNN, also they ran Stifle): 1-2. They drew good hands all games, but this kinda doesn't matter b/c it really is not that hard to kill their things and win by default. If you draw and cast a Verdict, they just kind of die on the spot in the face of RiP, and they kinda have to murder their hand to stop a Nought -> Plow-self in this setting (at which point you say okay, and Stifle the Nought). Games 1 and 3 I had to keep opening hands with 2x Nought (sided 1 or 2 out in G3 so...), and G2 was won pretty easily after a mull. Porphry Nodes did a pretty huge amount of work to ravage their resources g2 as they tried to protect a TNN over 3 turns (kind of a losing line against a deck that can gain 12 out of nowhere) while I sat on a castable Verdict which I ended up pitching to FoN.

    This isn't 1912~Titanic~nbc RUG [whichever name you prefer], so who knows, but I think uncounterable Wrath + StPs + Nodes [postboard] with the ability to instantly gain massive quantities of life grants a lot of time to do whatever while I can blank Wrenn with manlands and/or RiP. In the background of all this Teferi + FoN/FoW really just chews through their hand. I dunno, I just found myself really not caring about opponent's TNN (Hootie and the ProFish, not Titanic) and even less about their Winter Orb.

    Difficult to evaluate though; other than bringing in Winter Orb, which is really just a build-order loss (that should have been Cindervines), I think my opponent played optimally...but this is a sample size where they got TNN and Wrenn in every game against a Wasteland/Stifle deck. The opponent uh...nearly lost every game they won against pretty mediocre opening hands & draws (and dodging mana denial). I don't even think opponent could have chosen his topdecks and greatly changed how close they came to losing [b/c they don't have 2-3x Cindervines in their 75...well 73 as they have a 13 card sideboard due to Karakas/Crop Rot]. Unfortunately it'll be a probably be a few weeks before I play again and run by this matchup again by chance.

    In terms of my SB across these three matchups, there were:
    -4 neutral cards (3 Karn must-haves and Humility for SnT)
    -2 unused (never reached for Cursed Scroll nor Mastery)
    -9 which I used heavily

    The two unused ones today are too useful in durdlefests [matchup not encountered] to cut. The most redundant effects (Keg + Bomb) are kinda hard to choose one to cut, and meanwhile Porphyry Nodes really solidified its place in the board today. I'd like another wish-able yard hate in the board, but I think it's fine as is. I doubt Deafening Silence will find its way into the board (once released); it's probably sitting in line behind something like Silent Gravestone. On the maindeck side of things JVP was doing just okay again, so I might replace one with an Emry when she comes out just to see how she does.

    Really fun, thought-provoking matches today and the RUG pilot didn't have any egregious misplays I could see (this is the same guy I've seen punt pretty hard with Hymn and CB, so it's nice to see improvement concomitant with not playing either of those crutches). My list seems to be covering all the bases it needs to at this time, so minimal changes moving forwards as RUG Delver is ascending in the meta and pushing out Hymn and CB for me, while having a game plan that doesn't seem that great vs my deck (moreso if they're playing Arcanist into Teferi). The pushing out of DnT tracks pretty linearly with getting rolled by Verdict.

  19. #3999
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Not to refute your points on the Faerie, but I just want to point out that Torpor Orb does not interact with TNN.
    So it enters and the clause where you pick a player still happens? I misunderstood that interaction.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    So it enters and the clause where you pick a player still happens? I misunderstood that interaction.
    Correct. TNN has no triggered ability ("When", "Whenever"), but a static (?) ability ("As"), which doesn't use the stack. You also cannot Stifle TNN for that reason.
    Same on other cards like Pithing Needle or Meddling Mage.

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