[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Yan]

I stifled the trigger

And still lost with a Dreadnought on board, even after they wasted their pump spell on it? :)

(hint: Vines does nothing to the Stifle on the TRIGGER)

[Mr. Safety]

If you're doing Depths + Dreadnought, the most important piece to maximize and build around is Vampire Hexmage as it provides maindeck PW killing and Chalice neutralization (just don't use Ill. Mask). I don't think it's good enough to build around, but it is the most unique gain of function.

You don't think Map + Depths + Stage is enough? I admit it can be slow, but Standstill slows games down already. I just figured it would get me out of unwinnable games by making either a 12/12 trampler or a 20/20 indestructible flyer. All of the tools to protect Marit Lage are in there: Stifle for Wastelands, Wasteland for Karakas/Maze of Ith, Force of Will/Daze/Stubborn Denial/Not of this World to protect the big threats. It can play a slow Standstill game with Factories and Standstill or play a fast Dreadnought with protection, or a fast Marit Lage with protection. Maybe what you mean is it's too greedy and there will be non-games when I don't draw the correct pieces? I figure Brainstorm and Standstill do a decent job of digging into combos, or Tolaria West/Map finding the pieces.

I think Stage copying Mishra's Factory is actually decent, too. It allows me to play 6 factories.

Sundial does not work with Dark Depths, the cheapest card would be Alpine Moon in a deck that had some way to pick up or kill its own enchantment.

I figured, I re-read the card and it doesn't stop state-based effects like DD entering with 10 ice counters. It would work with Dreadnought, but I can't live the dream and use it on both Dreadnought andDepths.

[Fallen_Empire]

And still lost with a Dreadnought on board, even after they wasted their pump spell on it? :)

(hint: Vines does nothing to the Stifle on the TRIGGER)

Play phyrexian dreadnought
Because sac'ing 12 power sucks, decide to cast Stifle to stifle the sac trigger.
In response to me playing Stifle, opponent casts Vines of Vastwood on the dreadnought, not to pump it, but to prevent me from targeting my own creature till end of turn, thus preventing the Stifle from doing anything.

[Mr. Safety]

Play phyrexian dreadnought
Because sac'ing 12 power sucks, decide to cast Stifle to stifle the sac trigger.
In response to me playing Stifle, opponent casts Vines of Vastwood on the dreadnought, not to pump it, but to prevent me from targeting my own creature till end of turn, thus preventing the Stifle from doing anything.

But Dreadnought isn't being targeted, his trigger is being targeted. The trigger is a separate entity on the stack. I don't think Vines works here, actually, but I am not a judge.

[Xod]

@Fallen_Empire: you got hussled 😁

But seriously the other fellas are right, vines prevents to target the creature from a spell or an equip. Stifle always targets an ability, not the card itself.

[Mr. Safety]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...57#post1054357


I am pretty serious about testing out this Depths/Dreadnought list. It's a weird combination of landstill with combos...and potentially absolute garbage. But it looks fun as hell, so I'm game to try it out. If anyone has any ideas for how to go about it, please, feel free to post.

[Yan]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...57#post1054357


I am pretty serious about testing out this Depths/Dreadnought list. It's a weird combination of landstill with combos...and potentially absolute garbage. But it looks fun as hell, so I'm game to try it out. If anyone has any ideas for how to go about it, please, feel free to post.

I actually like the idea of this. Not that I would play it over the regular UR versions, because I just like my bolts and lavamancers more. But I think it has potential and it looks fun too and you don't need to sell your kidney to get those Volcanic Islands.

[Xod]

and you don't need to sell your kidney to get those Volcanic Islands.

You got a bad market for selling kidneys, I get AT LEAST Underground Sea's for mine

[Mr. Safety]

I have done a few goldfish games, it's not looking good. I really need lotus petals, which take up valuable disruption slots. Maybe it's time to consider cutting daze for lotus petal.

I was also eyeballing cryptic serpent as another "delve" threat that enables Stubborn Denial. I'm convinced stub is a legit legacy card, and I'm trying to make it work, lol. With stubs I can probably afford to lose the dazes in the depths list. Honestly, i'm starting to question daze in this deck at all. It protects a t1 delver and pitches to force after that. It's probably a necessary evil though, admittedly.

I had plenty of opportunities to fetch both lands, I just didn't have enough mana. This is quite the puzzle. I'll get a list posted as soon as I play more than a handful of gamrs.

[Hopo]

Play phyrexian dreadnought
Because sac'ing 12 power sucks, decide to cast Stifle to stifle the sac trigger.
In response to me playing Stifle, opponent casts Vines of Vastwood on the dreadnought, not to pump it, but to prevent me from targeting my own creature till end of turn, thus preventing the Stifle from doing anything.

You should pay more attention to reading and playing. This has been said many times already but you just keep repeating your wrong interpretation. Vines prevents targeting the creature. Stifle does not target permanents.

Play nought. Ability triggers.
Play Stifle, targeting the trigger.
Opponent responds by casting Vines targeting nought.
Vines resolves, nought has shroud'ish.
Stifle resolves, trigger is countered.
You have a nought.

This time your opponent got you good. Next time you know better and can even explain this to your opponent or even better, call a judge.

[Mr. Safety]

In testing, I feel that even with Lotus Petals the Depths idea is fairly weak. I started to go deep by adding Elvish Spirit Guide and Crop Rotation...but at that point it needs to be dedicated to the combo with disruption (8 discard, 3 Pithing Needles) and there just isn't enough room to squeeze in everything to make it work. Duress is infinitely better than Daze at protecting during the combo turn. To be reliable it actually isn't really that compact of a combo. To really streamline it, I would need 4x Depths/Stage, have to give up on Wasteland/Factories, and at that point Standstill is probably just a worse Sylvan Library. If I was getting decent results, even while slow, I would stick to it and work on it. For now I'll let it incubate and go back to Delver.

Definitely want to try out Cryptic Serpent though, in my attempt to make Stubborn Denial a legacy card. I have been disappointed with Spell Pierce (moved to sideboard) but Denial can play that role early game and be a hard counter once Dreadnought/Serpent are on the table. I think I need at least 2 Serpents, maybe 3, to pull off 2x Stub.

[Hopo]

In testing, I feel that even with Lotus Petals the Depths idea is fairly weak. I started to go deep by adding Elvish Spirit Guide and Crop Rotation..

If you explore the green splash a bit further, dreadnought really benefits from Blossoming Defense or Vines of Vastwood especially against Abrupt Decay. That is one more angle to try in my to-do-list.

[Mr. Safety]

If you explore the green splash a bit further, dreadnought really benefits from Blossoming Defense or Vines of Vastwood especially against Abrupt Decay. That is one more angle to try in my to-do-list.

I don't think it's viable to splash a color and maintain the colorless land base (Factory/Wasteland) unless I'm getting a more reliable payoff (Tarmogoyf really.) In order to accomplish mana stability I would have to add lands, and that cuts down on business, which makes Standstill worse.

EDIT: Seriously debating Search for Azcanta in this deck. It's another great t2 play that can really help smooth out games. Will try 1 instead of a Dismember, and if it's good enough, I'll drop something else for a 2nd copy.

[Fox]

Not too surprised by the Depths/Dreadnought experiment, you're two/three plans don't really overlap. I think the result was predictable based on just Depths/Standstill not being the greatest way to begin deckbuilding, and this is before adding Dreadnoughts. When you're mashing a second strategy into Dreadnought, there's a requisite amount of synergy you need to achieve before going further in deck design. This process generally starts by dropping or heavily downplaying the Standstill plan.

Any time we're looking at UG, you have to compare suggestions to the raw power level of possible strategies which don't yet exist at legacy-viable costs. Options include:
-2 mana instant: sac a dude, draw cards equal to power or toughness. Does not yet exist.
-my deck operates without untap steps, I play Stasis, and I'm gonna start phasing things out. Here you'd need skip untap steps on a better card, does not yet exist.
-highly specialized Ill. Mask deck. Too complex to summarize quickly, the main point though is that the cards which would make this deck operate quick enough for legacy do not yet exist.

If the point of green is protecting effects on an in-play Dreadnought, you have to compare those directly to staying blue with Vision Charm or Not of this World or Apostle's Blessing. The simplest scenario above defines what green needs to provide vs opponent trying to kill Dreadnought: drawing 12 cards. Looking into green for the Crop Rot and potentially ESG stuff, I think the target land has to say "T: counter targeted triggered ability generated by a creature," or that land could just be....let's call it "Torpor Vale." Green just isn't there yet...

[Fallen_Empire]

-highly specialized Ill. Mask deck. Too complex to summarize quickly, the main point though is that the cards which would make this deck operate quick enough for legacy do not yet exist.

I'm really interested and am appreciative of the nuance involved with the Mask/Nought trickery. Your knowledge and experience shouldn't be lost if you have real anecdotal tips and tricks. I'll be waiting until you share your secret knowledge... Regretfully, you may be correct about the cards not existing but the allure is still too great to turn away... the 75 isn't settled, I'll continue to tinker and brew...

There aren't that many vaults of knowledge to draw upon when it comes to stiflenought in 2018. We're two deep worldwide, maybe three with Mr. Safety
Oracle Fox - You are like the Marcel Griaule of the 12/12 community. An expert in the ways of the Mask. Respect for taking the time to observe the intricacies of the obscure.

[frustanani]

Has nobody ever tried
Phyrexian Dreadnought + Torpor Orb + Whir of Invention ?
I think one of the best ways to protect a 12/12 creature to play it istant speed.
Another very good protection for the big 12/12 is Spellskite

------ Different argument of discussion ------

If I would mix another strategy with the Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle,
it would probabely be Painter's Servant + Grindstone
Because they share the nice possibility of using:
Whir of Invention &/or Reverse Engineer &/or Spellskite &/or Vision Charm

Maybe a deck like that could be viable ?

1 Seat of The Synod
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
7 Island
4 Chrome Mox (the second and third can be played without imprinting ... they still work with Improvise mechanics)

2 Torpor Orb
4 Relic of Progenitus &/or Retrofitter Foundry
3 Grindstone

1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation or Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp
2 Spellskite
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Painter's Servant

3 Force of Will
2 Vision Charm
2 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Reverse Engineer
3 Whir of Invention

Note that Torpor Orb does NOT stop Painter's Servant (It says "As..." and not "When...")

[Mr. Safety]

Not too surprised by the Depths/Dreadnought experiment, you're two/three plans don't really overlap. I think the result was predictable based on just Depths/Standstill not being the greatest way to begin deckbuilding, and this is before adding Dreadnoughts. When you're mashing a second strategy into Dreadnought, there's a requisite amount of synergy you need to achieve before going further in deck design. This process generally starts by dropping or heavily downplaying the Standstill plan.

Any time we're looking at UG, you have to compare suggestions to the raw power level of possible strategies which don't yet exist at legacy-viable costs. Options include:
-2 mana instant: sac a dude, draw cards equal to power or toughness. Does not yet exist.
-my deck operates without untap steps, I play Stasis, and I'm gonna start phasing things out. Here you'd need skip untap steps on a better card, does not yet exist.
-highly specialized Ill. Mask deck. Too complex to summarize quickly, the main point though is that the cards which would make this deck operate quick enough for legacy do not yet exist.

If the point of green is protecting effects on an in-play Dreadnought, you have to compare those directly to staying blue with Vision Charm or Not of this World or Apostle's Blessing. The simplest scenario above defines what green needs to provide vs opponent trying to kill Dreadnought: drawing 12 cards. Looking into green for the Crop Rot and potentially ESG stuff, I think the target land has to say "T: counter targeted triggered ability generated by a creature," or that land could just be....let's call it "Torpor Vale." Green just isn't there yet...

You're right, but I wanted to try, lol. I'm stubborn at innovation attempts. Everything you say makes sense, and I realized it was basically 'I wish I was still playing Depths'. So I rebuilt G/B Depths, lol.

More than anything else, the lack of Force of Will is what is holding back my progress with the deck. Every game I ripped into Force I was able to pull out either with Delver or Factories. I gotta get those other 3 copies. Once I get those I'll probably lose the fascination with trying so hard to make Stubborn Denial work. Cryptic Serpent is still a decent idea to test, but I don't think I could play more than 2 copies, and once I get those in what do I cut for Stubborn Denial? Spell Snare? Dismember? I'm not sure where to go with it at that point, I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there.

Putting Spell Pierce to the sideboard was also very helpful, and I finally dropped the Nimble Obstructionist plan. It's great at what it does, and maybe I'll work it in again, but Search for Azcanta in the few test games I've played has been incredible. It's too bad it doesn't get any of the threats, but the card advantage is impressive. I'm playing 2 copies ATM, but I could see -1 Search/+1 Nimble if I end up with awkward draws. It's quite possibly the best 5th copy of Standstill while having less inherent risk than Standsill.

[Fox]

@frustanini your list has lots of inconsistency (Chrome Mox ramps this problem up) and very little protection. Lower protection would be fine except all your realistic wincons (7 between Painter and Dreadnought) can't really compete vs Snapcaster + removal spell playsets. All these wincons require two cards, and your protective on-board pieces keep putting you further away from winning (slight exception for Torpor Orb). The result is an unhappy mix of inconsistency and negative CA.

Outside of Whir of Invention and Reverse Engineer these two strategies generally fail to intersect and play off eachother. Whir of Invention has to be compared quite directly to Aether Vial for purpose of instant speed, uncounterable, mana positive, and playing nicely with Reverse Engineer. I definitely think there is enough raw CA with Thoughtcast and Reverse Engineer (and Metallic Rebuke and the 4/4 hexproof) to create blue Ancient Tomb deck...I'm just not sure Dreadnought + Painter/Stone work together and also take advantage of the improvise mechanic. Walking Ballista is probably the preferred creature in an improvise deck.

[frustanani]

@frustanini your list has lots of inconsistency (Chrome Mox ramps this problem up) and very little protection. Lower protection would be fine except all your realistic wincons (7 between Painter and Dreadnought) can't really compete vs Snapcaster + removal spell playsets. All these wincons require two cards, and your protective on-board pieces keep putting you further away from winning (slight exception for Torpor Orb). The result is an unhappy mix of inconsistency and negative CA.

Outside of Whir of Invention and Reverse Engineer these two strategies generally fail to intersect and play off eachother. Whir of Invention has to be compared quite directly to Aether Vial for purpose of instant speed, uncounterable, mana positive, and playing nicely with Reverse Engineer. I definitely think there is enough raw CA with Thoughtcast and Reverse Engineer (and Metallic Rebuke and the 4/4 hexproof) to create blue Ancient Tomb deck...I'm just not sure Dreadnought + Painter/Stone work together and also take advantage of the improvise mechanic. Walking Ballista is probably the preferred creature in an improvise deck.

The difference between Aether Vial and Whir of Invention is a lot
- with Vial you need the creature in hand (so 2 cards), with Whir in your deck
- if you topdeck Vial you do notting with it. Whir is an awesome topdeck
- Vial can put into play only creature. Whir in my list can take 23 cards.
- Whir makes you virtually play with more winning condition and allow you to win throught a Chalice of the Void@1

Ad for the protection issue. You may better read the list and compare it to other lists. Protection are more, and Spellskite can be played even before you play an important creature. Not to mention he is playable via Whir of Invention and protect one of your pieces from Abrupt Decay or Jace, The Mind Sculptor etc.
How many counters do you think you can play vs 4 Snapcaster Mage decks ? Don't you better play relic of progenitus (which can be a cantrip, while slowing nearly any decks around). Not only there are more protections, but also more threats.

For sure a list like the one I proposed is slower than usual lists.

Generally I think Phyrexian Dreadnought to be a week strategy. While Painter is stronger (don't pass throught combat phase, takes 1 turn to kill, don't need to play 2 cards in the same moment, can kill in response to remouvals etc.) and works perfectly with Whir of Invention. So why not abusing of that blue card to make Dreadnought strategy more solid and stable ?

Consistency also means:
- not dying from a Ensnaring Bridge
- not dying from a Chalice of the Void
- not dying from a Abrupt Decay
- not needing 4 cards in hand to play and protect something: Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle + Force of Will + a blue pitch
etc.

[Mr. Safety]

How many counters do you think you can play vs 4 Snapcaster Mage decks ? Don't you better play relic of progenitus (which can be a cantrip, while slowing nearly any decks around).

Spell Snare has proven it's value many times to me. I wouldn't play a list with less than 2 copies, especially considering the prevalence of 2 mana cards in the format. This deck tends to struggle slightly on the draw; Spell Snare really fills a strong role here.

Generally I think Phyrexian Dreadnought to be a week strategy.

I completely disagree. I was playing against Death's Shadow and I was literally holding off 2 Death's Shadows and a Gurmag Angler with one Dreadnought. If he attacks, he loses a creature and I crack back. Trample is fairly rare in legacy and it completely fucks up combat math. It demolishes strategies that depend on small blockers from Young Pyromancer or creatures that block infinitely like True Name Nemesis. I single Dreadnought swings the game absurdly in your favor against Death and Taxes. Along with Delver it's an efficient threat backed by Standstill and free countermagic. The notion that Dreadnought is a weak strategy is nonsense, and doesn't play out in practicality. The decks with bigger threats (Dark Depths and Eldrazi) get completely destroyed by Stifle/Trickbind/Torpor Orb. The decks with faster threats (Delver variants) can't handle a 12/12 trampler. The only really difficult matchup is Miracles, but even Terminus is foiled by Stifle/Trickbind (not saying this is a good matchup, but it isn't unwinnable either, and certainly doesn't negate the raw power of Dreadnought.)

Consistency also means:
- not dying from a Ensnaring Bridge
- not dying from a Chalice of the Void
- not dying from a Abrupt Decay
- not needing 4 cards in hand to play and protect something: Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle + Force of Will + a blue pitch
etc.

Consistency is:
-countering their first turn play and resolving a Standstill
-getting virtual card advantage with Standstill by slowing their game plan down
-drawing 3 cards and having access to free countermagic
-having a strong mana-denial package alongside card draw, cheap threats, and Brainstorm

If you play this deck and perpetually lose to Abrupt Decay, Chalice of the Void, or Ensnaring Bridge you really need to learn how to play around cards that beat you. Not only that, you need to look at your deck as 75, not 60. Misdirection, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Echoing Truth, and Abrade are just the short list of cards that address those issues. Oh yeah, and we have Brainstorm/Standstill to draw consistently into those sideboard cards. I'm not here to pick a fight, but your Painter list is fairly unique and doesn't really fall into the Dreadstill zone. I suggest going to the mono-blue Painter thread and getting some better feedback; the strategy is wildly different, even if some of the cards overlap.