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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #3841

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    That is exactly why I think Snare is great right now: Miracles and Grixis Control.
    But it is indeed a hit or miss, no doubt about it.

    There is enough bad match ups for both Pierce and Snare, so it is mostly just a preference. They hit some of the same cards but I like to have the one that answers snapcaster and strix in my main and the other on the side. Again, just a personal prefence based on roughly 10 years of DreadStill :D (could be more actually?)

  2. #3842

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Took UR Dreadnoughts & stuff to the local for another 4-0. I am now 8-0 since picking up the deck. 8-0 is the face I make to that

    More or less the same list as last time.

    Rd 1 - Grixis Delver. Dude is kind of new to the format. Trade blows but then I get a 12/12 and my blows just wreck him. Game 2 I land TNN and he lands TNN immediately after. I do the math wrong and figure I can win the race, so I drop standstill. This realization is hitting me just as I draw factory. He has wasteland but doesn't use it, so now I'm winning the race again. Long story short - I won the race.

    Rd 2 - Esper blade. Game 1 I aggro him out with factories and standstills. He can't seem to deal and doesn't get anything going on his end. Game 2 I keep a 1 lander and lose. Game 3 I'm not exactly sure, I think we trade around for a bit but he loses to my TNN in the end

    Rd 3 - Grixis Delver. This guy more experienced. Game 1 we're beating on each other and I'm slightly ahead when I go for the 12/12. He counters stifle, I daze, he forces. So all in all a 4-for-4. Both spent, but grim lavamancer is great in a creature stall. Game 2 he gets lavamancer down before I do. I can't kill it in time and he stops my 12/12 and a pryomancer seals the deal. Game 3 he bolts my early delver, I drop standstill with factory. He bolts factory and I draw 3. Then he starts aggroing me with a delver. I waste him off black mana, get to 3 mana and then play dreadnought stifle with daze and spell pierce to protect it. Pierce takes his pierce, daze hits his abrade, and Dreadnought wins the day. In retrospect should have wasted him again to make sure, and should not have been so aggressive under standstill.

    Rd 4 - Dredge. He kills me game 1. Game 2 I surgical bridges, lavaman holds off ichorids and I eventually get there with factory. Game 3 I have double surgical and he's on a mull to four. I stifle colosseum and ping him down with lavaman but that's it.

    Deck feels great. I Love lavamancer. I wish we had space for Ponder. Having sort of 3 different angles of attack (delver, standstill, dreadnought) makes it hard for them to defend adequately, but also we have to line up our strategy with their draw and our own... can be tricky and more cantrips would help but we don't really have the room.

    Would love some advice on sideboarding - what do you cut, for example, against Delver or against Control decks? I've been cutting forces for other countermagic and cutting Daze when I'm on the draw. Not really sure though. A general sideboard guide would be nice.

    Will likely be trying the deck out again tomorrow, let's see if we can go for the 12-0!!
    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

  3. #3843
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Hey guys was reading back on the Snare debate. I have played with 4 copies for a while now in the main It’s in a very good spot because of Grixis and Miracles both being tier S. I used to play Lavamancer MD he’s alright if you see alot of D&T or Shadow. I personally like Yan board the pierces instead. Im rather surprised by the lack of love for MD TNN. Ive run 3-4 copies now for a while and win most matches with him. He’s just another linear approach we can take with zero drawback really. My secondary enabler for a while has been Torpor Orb.. great card to dump Nought on. Glad to see new people taking interest... between this deck and Dragon combo I’ve been rolling my local meta as of late. Standstill is sooo strong right now!
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  4. #3844

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I used to play TNN in the main, but decided to switch it with lavaman. Could see both ways being correct depending on the meta. Though Lavaman is quite a lot better with standstill, so you have another 1-drop to follow up with a still. One possible way to go would be to just ditch the Dreadnoghts all together, but then it would be another deck. They do shine in some matchups, so I won’t be trying that anytime soon.

    Edit. Basically what I want to say, is that I’m not sure that it is the Dreadnought part of the deck that makes it competitive right now, but rather that ”Delver plan” followed with a standstill.
    Last edited by Yan; 10-21-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  5. #3845

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    That's an interesting point RE the dreadnoughts not being so good. I haven't played the deck as much as you guys but I find the dreadnoughts do shine in certain contexts.
    - When you are behind they give a good way to get back into the game if you can play into them. I've stolen a few games by just dropping dreadnought and then killing them even though they've got a strong board advantage
    - racing other decks. Dreadnought makes burn a virtual bye it seems like, and against combo t2 dreadnought with a daze/FoW backup is more or less game, much more pressure than t1 delver (though that is pretty good too)
    - puts fear into them. If they know they have to play around dreadnoughts, they might hold back removal, etc.

    that said, I should probably be boarding them out in more matches than I do, and leaning harder on the standstill part of the deck
    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

  6. #3846

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    That's an interesting point RE the dreadnoughts not being so good. I haven't played the deck as much as you guys but I find the dreadnoughts do shine in certain contexts.
    - When you are behind they give a good way to get back into the game if you can play into them. I've stolen a few games by just dropping dreadnought and then killing them even though they've got a strong board advantage
    - racing other decks. Dreadnought makes burn a virtual bye it seems like, and against combo t2 dreadnought with a daze/FoW backup is more or less game, much more pressure than t1 delver (though that is pretty good too)
    - puts fear into them. If they know they have to play around dreadnoughts, they might hold back removal, etc.

    that said, I should probably be boarding them out in more matches than I do, and leaning harder on the standstill part of the deck
    Sure, Dreadnought is great in quite a many matchups, but against many of the most popular decks, it’s just an easy 2 for 1 for your opponent. Unles it goes unanswered, then it’s obviously game. I would just argue that by replacing noughts with something like TNN/lavaman, you might end up with a somehow more consistent deck. This is mostly the reason that my Dreadnought count is currently at 3, with only 4 enablers. I’m personally not ready to drop them all, I just love the card and as you said, there is still a lot of matches that it is absolutely great in.

  7. #3847
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    It’s why I run 4 Nought 4 TNN each main. In the matchups Dreadnought kills (burn, stax, c0mbo, elves etc, UR Delver/RUG) TNN is ok but sorta mediocre. But in the matchups Noughts mediocre (Miracles, Grixis control, BuG Decay) TNN just dominates. It makes them both counteract their weaknesses together. Also your opponent is put into a difficult spot because you can’t hate out both with removal because TNN needs specific cards to deal with it. They compliment each other perfectly.

    Edit: I agree with the FeAr aspect. Fear the 12/12.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  8. #3848
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    It’s why I run 4 Nought 4 TNN each main. In the matchups Dreadnought kills (burn, stax, c0mbo, elves etc, UR Delver/RUG) TNN is ok but sorta mediocre. But in the matchups Noughts mediocre (Miracles, Grixis control, BuG Decay) TNN just dominates. It makes them both counteract their weaknesses together. Also your opponent is put into a difficult spot because you can’t hate out both with removal because TNN needs specific cards to deal with it. They compliment each other perfectly.

    Edit: I agree with the FeAr aspect. Fear the 12/12.
    You have a list? I'm quite intrigued..

  9. #3849

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Spell Snare can be very good here for both Diabolic Edict, Hymn and Assassin’s Trophy

  10. #3850
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    http://www.eternalcentral.com/legacychamps2018/ <- scroll to the bottom to see PDFs of all the 622 decks at EW.

    Going through the list quickly, I only saw 8 copies of Dreadnought. There was a UB Shadow/Dreadnought list around ~50/622 which was neither focused enough on either the Dreadnought or Shadow plan. Deck 233/622 is Dreadstill which looked to be a little on the budget side unfortunately (24 lands, 2 Volc, 2 Tarn [only], 5 U Fetch); otherwise maindeck looked fine (4 Delver, 4 Dread, 2 SCM, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Obstructionist - 2x TNN SB). Spice included MD singleton Fling and Trickbind. No Misdirection effects in the board, and -3 slots of space went to Blood Moon (not a card I'd ever really want in this deck's sideboard).

    Other observations:
    -quite a bit of EldraziPost (good matchup for us)
    -a fair amount of Pox; not too surprising since Sinkhole -> Assassin Trophy will probably merge Pox into slow Depths genre.
    -lots of Grixis Delver type decks with YP and BitterB. Not sure why this deck is being played with exactly 4x 1-drop threats; it seems like a strictly worse deck than Grixis Jammy Jams ["Control"] while doing pretty much the same thing.
    -Mishra's Factory had a ton of copies at EW [the UW versions of non-Dreadnought Landstill without Wasteland would have been very poorly positioned at EW]
    -Best Decklist goes to Daniel Miller 399/622 (seriously, look at it, it's a thing of beauty)
    -Joe Brennan gets award for playing most spicy maindeck card outside Dreadnought archetype with 2x Abeyance in the main of miracles. Joe Hosking gets runner-up prize for 1x Kjeldoran Outpost in main of DnT.

    Teferi's Realm should really be in the sideboard if you're expecting Chalice at the density observed in EW metagame. I don't have time to test, but I think Expansion // Explosion is well worth testing right now.

  11. #3851

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Small 3-round tournament last night. Went 3-0. I was testing some sideboard options and had 15 1-offs there, but didn’t really need any of them. Main deck same as before.

    2-0 against Elves. First game locked him with lavamancer. Second game he was mana skrewed.
    2-0 against Lands. First game I start with delver. He gambles and I suspect loam. Against all sensible thinking, I drop standstill next turn. I have a wasteland to slow his combo for one turn and that is enough time to finish him with factories and a bolt. Second game he comboes fast and I have vapor snag. Double delver takes it home.
    1-0-1 against grixis control. I play turn 2 standstill on the draw on an empty board. I fail to find a factory so we keep going draw-go-discard for 15-20 turns. He finally breaks it and I proceed to win from there by countering everything and resolving standstills after another and bolting face. No time to finish game 2 but I was slightly ahead, me with lavamancer and him with empty hand and board, though his deck probably top decks slightly better than mine.

    Still not sure about the dreadnoughts, if they are really needed.

  12. #3852
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Nice work on the 3-0 @Yan. As far as the Dreadnoughts go, they are there for linear strategies (Lands, Elves, DnT, combo, stompy). Any time we reduce the deck to UR cards with Standstill, serious questions will arise around Delver and Stifle (then by extension, Wasteland). The four paths you end up going down are:
    -turn into UR Delver
    -turn into a blue moon-ish deck (too slow to compete vs yard combo, too little life total pressure to leverage Bolt)
    -go straight to UW Standstill (which goes straight to miracles b/c UW can't beat Counterbalance unless they play it)
    -cut Wasteland for Grove, add Dack/P-Fire and turn into Thieves as we add black for Kcomm (pseudo-Czech)

    In every case, you're losing Stifle and the mana-denial focus. You're also notably worse against DnT and 12-post (meta-dependent considerations), which previously were pretty close to byes. The question comes down to how much you want to play Stifle-centric magic, b/c by itself (no goldfishing application) Stifle will cause you to lose games without substantially more cantrips (-4 Standstill, +4 Ponder -> now you're URx Delver w/o manlands).

  13. #3853
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I find this deck smashes Grixis and Miracles because of the Standstill engine.. I tested about 6 matches vs Grixis with my friend and I won both sets 2-1. He just couldn't find an answer to Standstill. Also True Name is powerful against them since Edict doesn't hit it with Factory out. I think Standstills insane in the meta right now. One of the real reasons I love playing this deck.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  14. #3854

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    I find this deck smashes Grixis and Miracles because of the Standstill engine.. I tested about 6 matches vs Grixis with my friend and I won both sets 2-1. He just couldn't find an answer to Standstill. Also True Name is powerful against them since Edict doesn't hit it with Factory out. I think Standstills insane in the meta right now. One of the real reasons I love playing this deck.
    I totally agree with this, as it is also shown in my reports. Counterbalance has never really been a problem either, because it’s almost impossible to resolve it against this deck. I think my record against blue control decks in tournament play is pretty much X-0 with the current list. I just side out all the dreadnoughts and put in TNN and ride to victory with the CA from standstills (other bad cards come out too of course). That is probably also the reason why I feel that Dreadnoughts are quite underwhelming for me, because all kinds of blue control decks are very popular in the areas I play in. I do think they are great against a lot of other decks and I won’t cut them permanently for that reason anytime soon, but I might do some testing with a similar list without the noughties.

  15. #3855
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Torpor Orb has been great for me. Being able to blank Strix and Snapcaster Mage has been excellent. I think it should be a 1-of in most lists.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  16. #3856
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Torpor Orb has been great for me. Being able to blank Strix and Snapcaster Mage has been excellent. I think it should be a 1-of in most lists.
    It is incredible against Death and Taxes as well; it nullifies everything you care about.
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  17. #3857

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I believe you guys on Torpor Orb. Just, Dreadnoughts are currently a secondary plan for me at most, so I don`t see the point for me to run more enablers for it. If I was on 4 Noughts, I could see it being correct to play it over Trickbind and other things at the moment atleast.

  18. #3858
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    3-0-1 tonight. Changed my list due to the amount of team Tundra in the room:
    -1 Daze, +1 Snare main
    -big changes to SB to make room for 2x Magical Hack, 2x Expansion // Explosion, 3rd REB, and 2x TNN (since they're now like $15). Really dislike bleeding off 3 slots (TNN and REB#3) to account for Counterbalance but it's about 1 in 3 matchups...

    -R1 vs Maverick (2-0): Delver discards Plow, then Standstill into Dreadnought. G2 is another Delver -> Standstill opener vs Forest/Karakas (Wasteland Karakas). Opponent brought in ~2x Choke so quite happy to have Magical Hack coming in, even though I never had to use them.
    -R2 vs LED Dredge (2-0): I win die roll, play land and Force their LED. Play Ill. Mask turn 2 and pass; opponent finds 2 Narco but no Therapy, and Dreadnought comes down turn3 (along with animate Factory, Waste self exiling 4x Bridge). Game 2 I go Volc->Delver vs their mull to 6. They are on the manual discard plan (2 turns), they discard Troll and I proceed to flip Delver revealing Surgical on second attempt. I Surgical target Troll, they Street Wraith, I Stifle the draw and leave 3 Troll in their deck, and Delver gets there.
    -R3 vs UB Shadow [no Duals, Hymn build] (2-0): I win die roll and resolve Delver, and turn 2 opponent gets Hymn'd by Stifle [FoW]. By time they can get a Shadow down, they're at ~5 life. Game 2 they get a Last Hope, I get a Dreadnought, they take 10 falling to 3 life. They shock to 1 and deploy 2x 12/12s (mines shrunk to 10/11; tragic right); topdeck Bolt.
    -R4 vs UWr miracles: Intentional draw.

    ~11 decks in the room. 3x CB users (UWr, UW B2B, UW B2B Blade), R/G Lands, Dredge, Maverick, Shadow, SnS, Eldrazi Stompy, and unknown.

  19. #3859
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Yan View Post
    I believe you guys on Torpor Orb. Just, Dreadnoughts are currently a secondary plan for me at most, so I don`t see the point for me to run more enablers for it. If I was on 4 Noughts, I could see it being correct to play it over Trickbind and other things at the moment atleast.
    It's actually a really decent sideboard card, and I don't think you would ever want more than 2 total. I've played it main when D&T was prevalent at my local, and I've played it side to bring in against Miracles/Grixis control. For me it was always a question of whether to run my own Snaps or not.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  20. #3860

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @Mr.Safety
    I just don’t understand why I would bring it in against Miracles/Grixis control when I’m anyway boarding out Dreadnoughts. If some of you guys are leaving them in and leaning heavily on them in these matchups, I can see why you are having problems against these decks. Against DnT it sure sounds great.

    My point here is that I don’t try to make cards good in matchups that they aren’t good in. I want to side out bad cards and replace them with good ones. I banged my head against a wall for years by trying to make things work that couldn’t. Then I realized that Dreadnought is not the core of the deck; Delver and Standstill is. Noughts are just the spice that give you free wins sometimes

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