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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4201
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    No. You’re all over the place. Stuffing that package in doesn’t seem good.
    I was thinking it was pretty straightforward. Make a 12/12 and protect it or make a 20/20 and protect it. I think you're right, it just seems like so much fun!
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for.
    Blessed by Roodgod himself. Going 4-0 next local confirmed

    @ DD, the more relevant one: That's an interesting idea. However. I feel like it pushes Dreadstill away from its greatest strength, which is its redundancy and commitment to a unified game plan; ideally everything in the list synergizes or at least supports everything else, either directly (Bolts on top of Nought which flip Delver) or indirectly (Small Teferi slowing the game down or enabling 1-way Standstills and additional draw, or Karn disabling problem artifacts and wishing for silver bullets).

    The DD package takes away either:
    - Factories which make Standstill asymmetrical in our favor or
    - Wastelands which help tempo do its thing and control restrict opponent's resources.
    - Increases our vulnerability to non-basic hate, which is something the deck is relatively good at handling I feel.

    While also pushing us towards cards that really don't do much to help everything else on the list, like ExMap.

    That being said, test it and let us know how it goes, cause it IS a pretty cool idea.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I was thinking it was pretty straightforward. Make a 12/12 and protect it or make a 20/20 and protect it. I think you're right, it just seems like so much fun!

    I think the issue may be that statement right there. It splits our gameplan and then when we commit to one or the other, the cards related to the other strategy become less helpful. But I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong on this.

    Dreadstill

    "Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    The issue is that you're going off in two completely different directions with tools that don't interact favorably. Both of your threats would each require 2-for-1s to create, and this isn't sustainable. Even if your threats were 1-card combos, we kind of already know that this doesn't work in legacy. Just look back at RUG Delver before Wrenn; the plan was dude into completely-unrelated dude into another unrelated dude. The only unifying thing between Delver, Goose, and Goyf is that they were efficient, but these were all essentially random 1-card combos (most creatures are, and are selected solely for an efficient rate or value). This hasn't worked for a number of years, until they were able to abandon the dude plan [if it wasn't working] and move all their eggs into the Wrenn basket.

    So Dreadnought + Depths is certainly very different, but they both die to the same thing. You've got piece A + B and then C + D, and you're never going to overcome the variance of drawing piece A *or* B + C *or* D when both are trading off into a 1 mana kill spell. While all that is going on, you still have to be able to create boardstates where you can actually play Standstill. None of your tech is uniting these plans with interchangeable pieces outside of the very loose idea that you can make a 20/20 while Standstill is in play.

    @crispymelee it's bad luck in the sense that those three decks can auto-lose, on the spot, to your strategy. They will always be behind the 8-ball, while your job is just to keep them behind that 8-ball, as they have to proactively have to try and aggro you out with whatever their deck's strategy is. What you counter definitely matters, particularly since you have multiple paths to victory against them. There's no easy answer, you have to look at your hand's plan, odds of drawing X plan off the top, how their deck works, and how modifying your sequence of forward velocity generation will cripple their strategy the most. The largest mistakes generally made in Dreadnought decks are misreading a situation and then wasting cards (making a Nought, SCM flashing back a meaningless Brainstorm, countering a pointless cantrip or another card that doesn't really matter, etc...). Against TurboKarn you ask whether or not [depends on hand] you can avoid countering any x=1 Chalice. The only card they have that matters is Karn b/c it's their only wincon; sometimes though Bridge will matter or Forge will matter. Even with Forge the only thing I really care about is the speed at which they can either find more Karns than I have counters, or can drop a Chalice x=5 to resolve a Karn. These decisions get easier once you have the tools to accurately assess and up-regulate their rate of life loss. After all that, there are still some games your hand is supposed to go after their mana rocks.

    On Doomsday, your opponent is fairly suicidal if they're trying to win with an ETB-tapped Wasteland target which also needs to resolve the whole trigger that looks for something to hide. If they get through all that, then they have to resolve the activated ability. It gets worse for them: I don't even think they can even cast a spell off a hideaway land vs a Teferi onboard.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @crispymelee /analysis

    On Doomsday, your opponent is fairly suicidal if they're trying to win with an ETB-tapped Wasteland target which also needs to resolve the whole trigger that looks for something to hide. If they get through all that, then they have to resolve the activated ability. It gets worse for them: I don't even think they can even cast a spell off a hideaway land vs a Teferi onboard.
    Totally agree with the analysis and thanks for the insight. Each of these games has been a lot of learning. It's like I tell my students/players, "you should learn more from losses than wins". My tools to asses the game state are still rusty

    I hadn't considered that interaction. Just checked via " chat.magicjudges.org ", and yea, my opponent shouldn't have been able to cast the Jace in the 3rd game. :( #themoreyouknow
    Dreadstill

    "Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3x Scroll of Fate
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    2x Dismember
    2x Vapor Snag
    2x Spell Snare
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Standstill
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Misty Rainforest
    6x Island
    4x Wasteland
    4x Mishra’s Factory
    One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol. Depths was just a kooky idea I wanted to feel out. Level heads here have satisfied my curiosity that it's not a good idea.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The issue is that you're going off in two completely different directions with tools that don't interact favorably. Both of your threats would each require 2-for-1s to create, and this isn't sustainable. Even if your threats were 1-card combos, we kind of already know that this doesn't work in legacy. Just look back at RUG Delver before Wrenn; the plan was dude into completely-unrelated dude into another unrelated dude. The only unifying thing between Delver, Goose, and Goyf is that they were efficient, but these were all essentially random 1-card combos (most creatures are, and are selected solely for an efficient rate or value). This hasn't worked for a number of years, until they were able to abandon the dude plan [if it wasn't working] and move all their eggs into the Wrenn basket.
    hm, but there have been such hybrid combo decks before:
    Like
    Bomberman + Painter/Grindstone hybrid.
    Reanimator Depths
    Tinfins Depths

    Granted, at least the Tinfins variant attacks with completely different strategies.

    And you are saying that the Delver, Goose, Goyf plan in Canadia Threshold hasn't work for years?
    I remember this deck being viable with this strategy even 10 years ago.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    They can Entomb for Vampire and have high redundancy with the reanimation spells ie. Cast Vampire, countered. Exhume it back, or Shallow Grave it back at instant speed. Living Wish glues both halves together as well. Exactly like how Karn glues both Bomberman and Painter halves together. Both combo don't die to the same hate either. For instance Bomberman dies to Chalice (granted solved with Karn) but Grindstone ignores it. Both halves might die to StP though, but Karn can get a servant back.

    I think this is the kind of interactions that we should look for when brewing a Two-card Monte type of deck.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryBacon View Post
    They can Entomb for Vampire and have high redundancy with the reanimation spells ie. Cast Vampire, countered. Exhume it back, or Shallow Grave it back at instant speed. Living Wish glues both halves together as well. Exactly like how Karn glues both Bomberman and Painter halves together. Both combo don't die to the same hate either. For instance Bomberman dies to Chalice (granted solved with Karn) but Grindstone ignores it. Both halves might die to StP though, but Karn can get a servant back.

    I think this is the kind of interactions that we should look for when brewing a Two-card Monte type of deck.
    I tend to agree; there isn't any real overlap with the cards that support Dreadnought/Depths. Cards have only one use rather than supporting both plans.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I tend to agree; there isn't any real overlap with the cards that support Dreadnought/Depths. Cards have only one use rather than supporting both plans.
    Not only that, but another reason to put Depths and ReAnimator together, for example, is that Graveyard hate does nothing to stop the Depths plan and the same in the Bomberman case, where Gravehate does nothing to stop Grindstone.

    Here, if you make a 12/12 or a 20/20, StP defeats either. The only "advantage" is see here is the fact that Scroll could give you Edict-protection, but that is hardly a big thing.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    On the other hand, Dark Depths makes a go-big impression of Mishra's Factory under Standstill. It's definitely 3 cards I've considered together as a way of forcing a reaction from the opponent (possibly drawing permission off Standstill) but I didn't initially thought of Dreadstill as a shell for it. Not of this World is permission for both plans. Sadly, Vision Charm does not protect lands from Wasteland.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryBacon View Post
    I think this is the kind of interactions that we should look for when brewing a Two-card Monte type of deck.
    Oh, I'd love to see the old Dreadnought + Pandemonium deck again :-D

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol. Depths was just a kooky idea I wanted to feel out. Level heads here have satisfied my curiosity that it's not a good idea.
    I like how that looks for a MonoU list. Best of luck on your event!

    Also, keep the ideas coming. "Innovation" and "radical" ideas are just "bad" ideas that ended up working out.

    @ Canadian thresh: i think that list an example of deck design that's opposite of what we're are trying to do. We're trying to win based on a list that has an effect greater than the sum of its parts. Individually, a lot of our cards aren't "great" (Standstill, Dreadnought), but we run stuff that has incredible synergy with them (Scroll, Factory, Wastelands, Stifle). Thresh (Mongoose + Goyf + Delver + spells) on the other hand tries to win based on the sheer quality of individual cards, that had very limited synergy.

    Both can work. One is just a lot less elegant than the other
    Dreadstill

    "Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol.
    List looks clean & classy, @Mr. Safety. ˇBest of luck this weekend!

    I've been reunited with my Legacy cards after the summer & back on UB Stiflenought this month (Ponders no Standstills/Factories, 2 Baby Jaces & 3 MD Thoughtseize; all creature removal in the SB except for 1 Drown in the Loch and 1 Brazen Bouncer). Been doing alright after some rusty punting the first night back in action. Deck still feels legit, my play/focus can be improved. And this is the first time I get to play with Scrolls, finally: What a game changer! Weird play patterns that take some getting used to, though. W6 Delver MU feels pretty decent and as long as there's a good amount of combo around, I'm happy. If Miracles & 4CC should make some kind of comeback with Okos & Mystic Sanctuary I might well switch to Rood's Dreadstill list. (@Rood: Also great seeing you shine on the Brainstorm MtG videos: It's been hard to find good footage of recent Dreadnought action and those are just golden.)

    Loving all the traffic on this thread, and it's good to see new folks coming to the archetype and engaging. (Please don't move this to Discord, level of convo here is so much better.)

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    And you are saying that the Delver, Goose, Goyf plan in Canadia Threshold hasn't work for years?
    I remember this deck being viable with this strategy even 10 years ago.
    Their strategy has largely been unplayable since Strix/DRS [Shardless] existed at the same time as CB/SDT in UWr [miracles]. You could add on their rather questionable matchup against Grixis Delver, plus the fact that Grixis Delver had better matchups vs the rest of the field. RUG Delver is, by virtue of its strategy, a dead deck - it can only improve by WotC printing 1-card combos that are upgrades compared to what it was running. Their deck got nothing since 2012 (until Wrenn came along), and the rest of the format got better; this is what I mean by their deck being less than competitive during that time span. Playing dude into dude into dude is a recipe for failure, particularly when your 1-card combos are getting outclassed.

    @Mr. Safety just get that Volc and get some Bolts in there; it's so close to complete!

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol. Depths was just a kooky idea I wanted to feel out. Level heads here have satisfied my curiosity that it's not a good idea.
    Looks very close to what I'm on without the bolts. GL my dude, let us know how you make out. I am on 3 Misdirection sideboard for the Depths matchups (Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn) I suggest it to you as well. It's also pretty good vs the 4c control and grixis lists.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Looks very close to what I'm on without the bolts. GL my dude, let us know how you make out. I am on 3 Misdirection sideboard for the Depths matchups (Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn) I suggest it to you as well. It's also pretty good vs the 4c control and grixis lists.
    I know Misdirection can be a pseudo-counter vs other counters and have only recently noticed that Willbender can redirect Grindstone hilariously. Are there any other matchups where they would be particularly helpful? High Tide perhaps or some other combo?
    Dreadstill

    "Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by crispymelee View Post
    I know Misdirection can be a pseudo-counter vs other counters and have only recently noticed that Willbender can redirect Grindstone hilariously. Are there any other matchups where they would be particularly helpful? High Tide perhaps or some other combo?
    Burn is a blowout. Death Shadow they are pretty good (Fatal Push, Thoughtseize counters).
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Care to share your UR Dreadnought build Rood?

    EDIT: nvm, looked at the first page :-)
    Last edited by Xod; 10-25-2019 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Looks very close to what I'm on without the bolts. GL my dude, let us know how you make out. I am on 3 Misdirection sideboard for the Depths matchups (Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn) I suggest it to you as well. It's also pretty good vs the 4c control and grixis lists.
    I'm on 2 Misdirection for Depths/discard strategies sideboard along with maindeck 2x Vapor Snag and 2x sideboard Echoing Truth for Depths. You bring up a great point: what should the sideboard look like?

    Here it is currently:

    2x Ratchet Bomb (Death and Taxes, Goblins, Elves, basically Engineered Explosives replacement because mono-blue)
    2x Sower of Temptation (Show and Tell, Eldrazi Post, Lands, Depths, mid-range Tarmogoyf decks)
    2x Misdirection (Depths, Burn, Grixis/4C control, anything with discard really)
    2x Blue Elemental Blast (RUG Delver, Moon Stompy, Burn, Sneak/Show)
    2x Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Depths, Lands, Dredge, Storm)
    2x Echoing Truth (Depths, Lands, Reanimator, Storm, Death and Taxes, Moon Stompy, Ensnaring Bridge decks, utility bounce for odd decks)
    2x Pithing Needle (Depths, RUG Delver, Miracles, Lands, Reanimator, Show and Tell)
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Miracles, Grixis/4C Control, Lands, grindy decks. This could be where Misdirection #3 goes, its a flex spot

    @Fox: Volcanic is priority #1 for me atm. I don't have the cash for it, but I'm hoping to trade for it if possible or if I spike the event (fingers crossed) I should be well on my way to buying one.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'm on 2 Misdirection for Depths/discard strategies sideboard along with maindeck 2x Vapor Snag and 2x sideboard Echoing Truth for Depths. You bring up a great point: what should the sideboard look like?

    Here it is currently:

    2x Ratchet Bomb (Death and Taxes, Goblins, Elves, basically Engineered Explosives replacement because mono-blue)
    2x Sower of Temptation (Show and Tell, Eldrazi Post, Lands, Depths, mid-range Tarmogoyf decks)
    2x Misdirection (Depths, Burn, Grixis/4C control, anything with discard really)
    2x Blue Elemental Blast (RUG Delver, Moon Stompy, Burn, Sneak/Show)
    2x Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Depths, Lands, Dredge, Storm)
    2x Echoing Truth (Depths, Lands, Reanimator, Storm, Death and Taxes, Moon Stompy, Ensnaring Bridge decks, utility bounce for odd decks)
    2x Pithing Needle (Depths, RUG Delver, Miracles, Lands, Reanimator, Show and Tell)
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Miracles, Grixis/4C Control, Lands, grindy decks. This could be where Misdirection #3 goes, its a flex spot

    @Fox: Volcanic is priority #1 for me atm. I don't have the cash for it, but I'm hoping to trade for it if possible or if I spike the event (fingers crossed) I should be well on my way to buying one.
    I'd shave a needle and a blue blast for the 3rd Misdirection effect and an extra copy of Surgical or Cage (Matchups are kinda hard.)
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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