@fox are u still on the same list ? (Page one) I will start to test your version vs ur Delver, sneak and show
Yep, same list. Keep Brazen Borrower in mind when playing Standstill (vs. UR Delver) and cut the Snare vs SnT.
D&T seems an awful matchup. They have four Wasteland and four Rishadan Port for our Factories, a load of must counter grindy cards like Aether Vial (nullifies Standstill) and Stoneforge Mystic (gets equipment that is great against Delver and Manifested cards), and eight ways to deal with Dreadnought (Plow and Flickerwisp). Not to mention maindeck Revoker on Scroll of Fate. What's the strategy? Is it to resolve an early Nought and just hope to ride it to the win by countering Plow and Wisp? Or are we trying to go long with Scroll of Fate?
DnT isn’t so bad, and SBing begins with -3 or -4 Standstill. I lean towards cutting Daze down to ~2x copies (you’re trying to win with TNN and Scroll). Looking at Rood’s list on first page, TNNs come in, Abrade comes in, EE in, and a Dismember in. Pierce is not amazing vs DnT, but SB lacks more than the second copy of Dismember to replace them with.
In terms of beating DnT, you can either abuse TNN or construct differently with maindeck Grim Lavamancers, SB 2x Sulfur Elemental (or 1/1 split with Staticaster), 2x Abrade, Torpor Orb.
In my limited experience against D&T, the most impactful cards were Grim Lavamancer and Torpor Orb. Torpor Orb t2 on the play is back-breaking. Quick Dreadnought can usually get there, t2-3 usually means you can race. I don't recommend going long, it just gives them time to spam tons of little dudes onto the battlefield. Pyroclasm is another decent card against them. Spell Snare is surprisingly good against their deck if you can keep them off an early Aether Vial.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Took Rood’s list with some sideboard changes to local Win A Dual. 3-2 10th place. Manifested a couple of Noughts. Manifesting cards with Scroll of Fate is surprisingly good, won me two games. One was Chalice on 1, which meant I was just manifesting all my Brainstorms and Stifles and beating down! Had fun.
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Only had 7 decks in the room but everyone agreed to 4 rounds, so some strange pairings in the last round. RUG Delver (Hootie and the ProFish), UR Landstill (~Dreadstill w/o Nought), StryfoPile, Goblins, Eldrazi Aggro, Jund, and manifest destiny.
Round 1 vs Hootie and the ProFish (2-1): game 1 opponent keeps a 1-lander (Fetch), but wins the die roll and so I don't auto-win off the Stifle and FoW in my hand. Game 2 I am able to get my mana establised and end up winning with a Nought off Scroll. Game 3 my mana is okay and opponent ends up running into a few Teferi to bounce his Delver (only threat), which ends up also eating 2x Bolt from his hand. A followup JVP duresses another Bolt, and after exhanges like these opponent has too little in hand to prevent Scroll from coming down. Scroll goes on to gobble up a pair of Stifles before deploying a Nought, which ends the game. In all 3 games opponent was the only one able to aggressively use Stifle and Wasteland, but my defensive Stifles were enough to duress blue cards from hand (they don't really have a choice b/c if I get lands, all their soft permission become dead cards).
Round 2 vs UR Landstill (2-0): game 1 I'm able to get to a mid-game where I resolve a Dreadnought on 11 life vs a Delver and win the race. Game 2 the opponent is a little stuck on lands and ends up staring down a Karn which wished up the Cursed Scroll machine gun and a Crucible before dying to 2x SCM (so gained 4 life as well). With the Factory/Wasteland dominance of Crucible and control of the Scroll, I end up getting there. This isn't a great matchup, but it's aided by being the reactive party in a Factory mirror (they have to expose Factory and try to get damage in early).
Round 3 vs Jund (2-0): game 1 they're spamming discard into Hymn, and are hitting my payoff cards, but their followup of Confidant -> BBE flip Goyf ends up dying to a Verdict and they can't recover. Game 2 they have the same discard-heavy opening but stumble on lands. I'm able to resolve Ashiok and [-1] which mills over 3 lands and a BBE, and they are forced to Decay (-1 turn due to lost card and tap out). The next turn I cast Crucible (boarded in) and my Factories bleed them out of resources for no gain; I think I recurred 4 Factory before Crucible duressed their next Decay.
Round 4 vs Goblins (2-0): game 1 I hit a Fetch with Stifle and that tempo leads to creating a window for a Dreadnought to get a hit in and then get protected from Cratermaker (Stifle). Game 2 I'm able to bounce their Vial with a Teferi and counter it on the back end; this leads to a grindy game where Scroll is able to stall them out with 2/2s after a brief period of racing (their 3/3 Chainwhirler vs my 2x2/2s swinging back). I topdeck Porphyry Nodes, which is picking off their 1/1 and 2/2 army, and have 2x Stifle for their 2x Ringleader triggers, and the 1-sided abyss [Nodes always chooses their 2/2s before mine] is able to end the game by default.
It was a big day for JVP surprisingly. It's been a couple years since I've gone [-3] on FoW in yard to enable alt-cast, followed by making a Nought. Also had a number of interesting spots where I'd put a Brainstorm on the stack and hold priority for Cursed Scroll activation (temporarily putting hand size to 1).
Underworld Breach has been banned, but Oko remains. Looks like we're living in an Oko world for a while yet.
On the dev side of things, not too much going on except for planning to take an UG list out this upcoming week. Will let you guys know how it goes!
@crispymelee what's the decklist you're gonna run?
Ran Rood's list through another league, going 3-2.
R1 v Mono Black win 2-1. G1 I fight through a Liliana with a Bolt after losing my Delver to its sacrifice ability, and then draw Scroll to manifest a Nought which gets there in one turn thanks to some Mishra's Factory beats earlier in the game. G2 he has T1 Unmask into Bob, which gets him all the cards he needs to frustrate my attempts to get a board, and I die to Bob and Regisaur. G3 he again has a T1 Bob, but I manage to get a Nought down with Stifle that, amazingly, doesn't die to anything, and I follow up with a Standstill the next turn. He flips Liliana's Triumph and casts it, but my Standstill draws me a Daze and I can Daze because his Chrome Mox is shut off by the Null Rod he boarded in for Scroll. Dreadnought wins the race easily from there.
R2 v Mon G Cloudpost win 2-0. Both games I have early StifleNought. In G2 he casts Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm but he's already on 4 life so he can't keep it going for long enough to draw into anything relevant.
R3 v Burn w 2-1. G1 I have a T2 StifleNought and race him successfully. G2 I have a T3 Scroll into Nought but on the draw it's not quick enough and he burns me out with Exquisite Firecraft, which I can't counter. G3 I keep a hand with no threats but double Stifle, FoW, Spell Pierce, Standstill, and two Islands. His first land is a fetch,which I stifle, and he proceeds to draw and discard for four turns while I draw lands and build up my mana. His second land is also a fetch, which also meets Stifle, followed by another four or so turns of draw discard. He finally draws a Mountain but I FoW his Goblin Guide and draw Phyrexian Dreadnought which I cast with my third Stifle, and which is good enough to race again.
R4 v Rg Painter. L 1-2. Mulligan to 5 first two games. Punted G2 by missing an attack with Factory which would have given me 1 turn lethal with Delver and TNN, but fortunately he tapped Ancient Tomb and gave me lethal anyway. G3 my Delver wouldn't flip so no pressure and he used Bomat Courier to cycle through his deck and drew the combo and I had no way to stop it.
R5 v Doomsday. L 1-2. Decent pressure G1 got me there, but G2 my FoW on his Doomsday got Veil'd and G3 I had lethal damage if he had a pass the turn Doomday pile (Nought off Scroll after his Doomsday took him to 9 life) but he had a pile that could win the same turn.
I think I might have sideboarded wrong for Painter. Do you leave Spell Pierce in or take it out?
@pandaman when it comes to Painter, it's going to depend on what you're trying to counter. Keeping in Pierce is going to keep Karn off the table, but it's not always going to be the best vs their REBs. The proactive Pierce can be dead rather quickly, and the reactive Pierce isn't really going to go live until they've already committed 3 mana to Grindstone. Even against SSG I like Daze more since it might hit a Welder or Magus, and will blank REBs turned on your lands. Since Karn is your best Pierce target (can't be recurred by Welder), you should have more than enough time to get a few draw steps into the game. Since you're probably not caring about the noncreature spells of the first three turns, I think it's fine to cut down to ~2x.
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Looks like CalebDMTG did a UG Dreadnought league (recorded on twitch, 2 day old video, from time of my post); the list was highly questionable. Pretty much unable to operate below 3 mana, still played Daze, and with all the structural problems it played 4 Ponder, 1 Preordain, and 4x Astro to....draw into the construction flaws quicker. It also built rather heavily into loss to yard hate. It's a pretty good example of how not to build the deck. I didn't watch the league, but I imagine it's going to highlight timing issues and lack of synergy quite well with this style of build.
Pretty much card for card what you had posted before. Differences are:
-1 Noxious
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Wasteland
+2 Astrolabe
+1 Academy Ruins
SB:
1x CoW
1x Cursed Scroll
1x EE
1x Liquimetal
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Tormod's
1x RiP
1x Karakas
3x Display of Dominance
2x Force of Vigor
2x Spell Pierce
///
Surgical
E.Tutor
Leyline/Void
Dreadnought
Tested the list in a Bant form (wack manabase, dropping Coatls for StP, Mirri's Guile in over Library bc I didn't have one at the time, some other minor tweaks I can't recall), and there just wasn't much to gain for such a varied manabase. Karakas out of the side and the Astrolabes just made more sense. The one time StP would have been relevant (vs Depths), never saw one after a few turns with Guile up and a Brainstorm + fetches . C'est la vie. The Ruins in place of Wasteland #4 was mostly just bc I lack a 4th Waste, but it was nice to have the option to recur artifacts. With Lotus Field in the list, the Astrolabes felt important since without them, we can't flip a Manifested Uro with Field on its own; felt bad to lose out on 1 mana trying to flip him with no Astrolabes (UUU or GGG + the missing color with no Astrolabe).
SB, I'd love to have more gy-hate. At the moment, it's a generic Karn-board with green options.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/566748583?t=02h20m33s - start of the DreadUro construction and discussion. 1st match at 2h45 The list it looked like he ended up taking:
1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Snow Island
1x Snow Forest
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Bauble
3x Scroll of Fate
3x Torpor Orb
4x Astrolabe
3x Dreadnought
3x Uro
3x Emry
3x Daze
4x FoW
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
Bending over backwards to beat DnT isn‘t a broadly viable strategy in legacy. There‘s no need to play non-engine answers to DnT, given how one-dimensional Cavern/Vial makes a deck. If you really want to get DnT, you have maindeck Grim Lavamancers and SB Torpor Orb. If you want to take out Mentor at the same time, you add SB Sulfur Elementals.
Plague Engineer takes you into UB, which begins to lack a plan for winning outside of 2x Dreadnought hits. You can look at UB Shadow and see this idea of using Plague Engineer [vs DnT] not really pan out, because the plan behind it still doesn‘t line up that well. You also are now in colors that just kinda lose to Oko, and Plague on Elk isn‘t exactly a great place to be. The inability to contest artifacts in UB is also problematic, so the DnT matchup isn‘t really improving.
@pandaman is using UR Nought with Standstill; there is no [competitive] black version. Black is a color that lets you play off-the-table to maximize board wipes, so it‘s highly unlikely that UB Dreadstill can outperform UB Standstill (since the Dreadnought version kinda has to play into its own wraths...and you don‘t really get to play wraths if you‘re picking up lands with Daze). You can play Delver/Confidant + no Standstill as UB Nought, but it‘s not as winning as UR or UW Dreadstill (and these are more-winning presentations than non-Dreadnought Standstill in those colors). Also a UB tempo version would have a really hard time getting to 20dmg through something as simple as Surgical target Dreadnought.
Against DnT (or any deck abusing Vials), you're probably going to want to look at boarding out some number of Standstills first. They just abuse it better than us.
G2, FoW (and FoN if you run it) and Daze can stay in if you're on the play; on the draw, you'll likely cut the Dazes for some secondary counter (Pierce, Mystical Dispute, Spell Snare) and keep in your Forces to stop the T1 Vial. I like to keep in the Dreads if only because theyre a magnet for removal and help clear the way for Delvers and TNN. EE if you have them in the board is a nice option for Moms, Givers, and Vials. Rood's right in that we just have to get in a threat early, and try to protect and ride it.
A few observations I have made trying UB Dreadnought:
1) I liked Dark Confidant over Standstill, which is much better against D&T and provides another threat/blocker.
2) Brazen Borrower is a fantastic card against D&T and most matchups in general. I like them maindeck as disruption, outs to Marit Lage, and pure tempo by bouncing something and then being a 3/1 flyer.
3) Oko is tough, but there are some interactions that UR and UW don't have access to: Thoughtseize, Toxic Deluge, and Shadow + Stubborn Denial. You are weak to Oko if you don't plan for it, but the rest of their deck (meaning Miracles, 4C Piles) aren't unmanageable.
4) I highly recommend playing Force of Negation in the maindeck, probably x2, in any version of Dreadstill. It's additional interaction t0 for Vials and lets you get your Force count up for Oko.
5) You can combo finish with Rite of Consumption (which I am testing ATM now that I have gone bust on Bazaar Trademage testing in other decks.) One hit from a 9/9 or 10/10 shadow (or Dreadnought) and finish with Rite of Consumption. It's similar to the Berserk plan that BUG Shadow was doing but allows you to stay in UB. It can also make it so you don't lose to your own Confidants (something I have done more times than I care to admit.)
6) Somehow, everyone always forgets about Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle as answers to Oko. No they aren't ideal, but honestly, what is ideal against a PW that powerful? Some decks can just ignore it (TES, Eldrazi) and others can just answer it with Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment. The rest of us need something less than perfect to deal with it, but that doesn't mean you'll always auto-lose to Oko.
There isn't a known list that has been putting up results, but I'll be damned if it isn't a fun deck to pilot. Once you let go of Standstill a lot of other options open up that might be less powerful in certain situations but are better overall against a broad metagame.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
They did it, fam: Looks like we finally got that mythical 2-drop we always wished for.
Heavenly Whale
(look it up; I don't know how to post images here)
card advantage + beatdown in one. Bye bye JVP; bye for now, Bob.
I could not be happier with this. Not least because imo a floating Whale juuust dodges the undignified goofiness of a Sharknado or the new Troll Dolltm Pet Dragon. This is a huge boost for a pure tempo build w/ neither Standstills nor Scrolls. This is my starting point:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2896227#paper
It's just Stifle Delver with Dreadnought as the top-end threat. The Nivmagus / Flusterstorm package is not essential; mainboard the TNNs otherwise. Depending on meta & preference, the Bolts could just as well be Swords (with T3feri & Disenchant out of the board), Thoughtseize/Push/Drown (w SB Engineered Explosives, Bitterblossom) or even Dismembers with some # of Veil & Oko in the side.
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