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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #3901
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Does Force of Negation have a place in this deck?
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    All variants are looking for creature removal either on countermagic or cards that also make Dreadnoughts happen; I don't see this card making the cut. Sideboard against Life from the Loam...maybe. This is also a time of substantial Snapcaster overuse (thanks to Hymn and CB boosting), so you're going to want Snare or Blast (you counter the spell that this new card would have, except they don't get a bonus 2/1). The issue with running Force of Negation SB is that it is worse than Misdirection-types.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I still think the real promise in UW Dreadnought is waiting for WotC to print a more realistically-costed Mastery of the Unseen effect turns top of deck [think E. Tutor] into an exploitable zone of value.


    ???

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Bleh, just lost a detailed reply to a misclick; so this one will be less in-depth.

    So we've got three cards to talk about so far: Trinket 2.0, omni-Fetch, and to a lesser extent the red 'Planeswalker Piper.'

    On Trinket 2.0:
    -Absurdly long stack lockout possible when stacking it with new Teferi and Vision Charm. Too much going on here to combine Standstill's manland optimization (new Teferi is designed for this specifically) with the tutor-heavy focus I prefer in UW (aka Manifest Destiny)
    -In terms of what Trinket 2.0 means to any build: massive boost vs Storm (covers how awful Plow is)
    -Only targets worth finding in U, W, or colorless = Ballista (not really maindeckable in our style) and Hex Parasite (this card has tutor and shenanigans written all over it; case and point Convalescent Care). If that doesn't have you excited enough, Hex and Delver are insects - I'm gonna let you guys figure this one out.
    -In terms of building like UR Dreadstill, but in the worse UW shell, Trinket 2.0 really only means that you go down to 2x Dreadnought and add 2x of this guy in. The nice thing in this build is more space to fit in new Teferi for lock-out manland attacks and blocks.
    -This card is worth $3 at best, but modern is cancer for pricing. Even for modern I don't think the pre-sale pricing is doing anything but tanking.

    On omni-Fetch:
    -monoU Delver thread can be closed now, even without Duals, you're able to play all basics (and Wasteland) in 2c.
    -in UW Dreadnought builds of any type, I think you're going to have a hard time justifying any copies of Tundra (maybe 1x is playable).
    -4x costs less than a Tundra, get your playset.

    On PW-Piper:
    -this card is dumb, and nowhere near competitive - which is to say that modern has everything it needs to jack up prices. So in the spirit of modern let's take this horrible idea and make it worse. Step 1 we need to ofc cancel the EoT exile trigger, add Sundial. Step 2 deck done.
    -buy your Sundials now if you lack your playset, they have all they need to jack up prices on a piece of tech that belongs to the Dreadnought family (Dreadnought-MUD-Tezz).
    -if you're looking to have fun with this for a weekly, you're ofc on UR and your PW of choice should probably be reasonably castable (and also cheap). Now Ugin, the Ineffable is probably too serious (and also like $6!), so I think we all know what this means: Chandra, Flamecaller - and don't worry guys, we're going to void all 3 exile triggers at the same time with Sundial c-c-c-combo. The most important thing is that Chandra, Shamecaller is like $2.50...well like it starts at $2.50.....but it'll probably cost extra to make it a Cersei alter for all those Game of Thrones fans.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Call me crazy but I don't actually like the new white Trinket Mage. I don't want to sacrifice him...I'm playing Swords to Plowshares so I want him to attack to make up for lifegain. His double-white cost is a little prohibitive as well, as I mentioned in another comment (somewhere...) We're also turning a 2 card/2-mana combo and turning it into a 2 card/5-mana combo. Do we need that kind of redundancy?

    I mean, I would love to have a Trinket Mage-style toolbox deck be viable, but I don't really see it being competitive. I think new Narset is about the best card for this archetype that has come along.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Eh, Narset doesn’t really do much. She’s a 3cmc Impulse that eats a Bolt. Are you combo’ing her with Geier Reach-type cards?

    The issue I have with Narset/new Teferi is that you topdeck them and they can’t take over a game, and you probably cut cards that likely had text against TNN. Cards like Search for Azcanta are cheaper and more able to take over a game on their own without board control requirements (particularly in an archetype that has to be much more selective about removal doubling as engine).

    The cards that exploit Narset’s ability are going to be rather high variance alone, but at least new Teferi does everything a Standstill plan wants (go to UWx Landstill thread if you want to read up on this). The important thing about Trinket 2.0 is that he combos in enough directions that you’re already going, and advances a common plan (that other cards were already selected to combo with). There really isn’t any tempo de-railing to get this effect:
    -new Teferi in play, cast Dreadnought & phase it out
    -opponent can’t do anything about it on their turn
    -untap, hit them while they can’t do anything about it.

    Now add Trinket 2.0:
    -new Teferi in play, cast Trinket 2.0, find Dreadnought
    -next turn do the Dreadnought phasing thing
    -free attack step
    -their upkeep sac 3/3
    -free attack step #2 (a similar thing can be done with Sundial as opposed to new Teferi, but less absolute)

    At no point in this sequence did we ever deviate from doing our thing, this is just a free bonus for doing what we already were. This is how all new cards should be evaluated from Dreadnought’s side of things - is it still part of the linear plan [columnar] while interacting favorably in a primarily lateral direction. To compete Dreadnought decks generally have to be A + A + so many A’s instead of A + B.

  7. #3907
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I do really enjoy the fact that you can respond to the miracle trigger from Terminus and sac your dude to prevent a wipe. Nice.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I mean it's more than that in the context of new Teferi; when you can't cast outside sorc speed and you're trying to kill a creature going through your turn phased out, and they have Trinket 2.0 on your next upkeep, you are hard locked out of the game (minus creatures and lands). This isn't just Terminus, it's every non-creature spell for two attack steps - and this isn't even the reason the cards were chosen, this is just bonus.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I like new Teferi. City of Solitude lock <-- Huge for Combo (UW omni-tell?) Pick up their Chalice, Pick up our own Standstill play a card, put the Standstill back down! Sign me up! Just ordered 4x omni-fetches the card seems great. June is a busy month so I won't get a lot of paper games in, but I will run UW dreadnought with the new Teferi believe that.
    Last edited by Fallen_Empire; 05-28-2019 at 06:55 PM.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Fox - did you see this list of beauty?

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22118&d=349569&f=LE


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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire View Post
    Fox - did you see this list of beauty?

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22118&d=349569&f=LE

    That list is sick. I love the way Illusionary Mask lets you play Dreadnought through Chalice on 1 but Chalice on 1 also protects Dreadnought from Swords to Plowshares.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    List is pretty funny, but Moon kinda antagonizes the reason to play Dreadnought. I think you'd be hard pressed to say the list wouldn't just win more by cutting all the Dreadnought stuff and play Rabblemasters. You'll pick up some win % vs combo and DnT with access to non-legendary turbo tramplers though.

    One of the big issues with lists like these is that you basically have to play Sundial with 4x City of Traitors + Dreadnoughts; and this means you need Caverns (no Moon) or no Chalice. This construction leads you down the paths of either: blue (ability to play instant speed +/- further exploiting Sundial), white (Salvagers/Chalice/Cavern/stuff), or something artifact'y with UB.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Been thinking up some new ways to play Dreadnought, building around the card Arcum's Astrolabe. The advantage is card type artifact with 1 cmc which also cantrips; filling the role of Ponder (a card we generally can‘t run due to space limitations). The two cards that come to mind for me are Welder and Transmute Artifact. So we have a value loop here that does all the Dreadnought stuff too (tutors/recursion). Important plays here include suicide Dreadnoughts to flush Arcum‘s to yard and back, and even Arcum‘s sac to Transmute to tutor another Arcum‘s.

    The issue with Welder ofc is that decks with him in it usually autolose to Welder dying, and that‘s where Dreadnought slots in nicely. Unsure if there should be creatures slotted for #9-12...Yard reliants (SCM/Lavaman/Goblin Engineer/Arcanist) all seem suspect. The idea I‘m mulling in those slots is Karn, the Great Creator whose exile-wishing negates [maybe] the need to play more wincons, while also completing the Dreadnought looping (deploy from library/hand/GY/exile).

    Deck so far would be:
    4x Dreadnought*
    4x Goblin Welder

    3-4x Karn

    4x Arcum‘s Astrolabe

    4x FoW
    4x BS
    4x Stifle
    2x Transmute Artifact

    4x Vista
    4x Scalding Tarn
    2x Volc
    3x Snow-Island
    1x Snow-Mountain
    4x Wasteland**

    *option for 3x main, 1x side
    **option to sub in one GQ (if Crucible in board)

    Looking at 12-13x slots left. Other artifact targets I‘m considering are Torpor Orb/Ill. Mask and Cursed Scroll - probably want 3 slots dedicated to this. The last few slots I filled up with 4x Bolt, 4x counters (Izzet Charm/Snare split), and a Trickbind (or Tale's End).

    Didn‘t really find a use for the off-color generation of Astrolabe, but maybe it‘s supposed to be for SB cards like EE/Canonist/Wear&Tear or off-color mainboard PWs like Wa6 or Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast. As far as walkers go Dack or Chandra or even new Saheeli might still be better choices? Another decent card to consider might be Rite of Undoing with the whole Astrolabe thing going on. Anyways interested in what you guys think of an Astrolabe/Welder/Dreadnought core, and best ways to take advantage of it.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    So, we're getting a Dreadnought-Vial which combines Aether Vial and Mastery of the Unseen into one card: Scroll of Fate (cmc taps to manifest card from hand, instant speed). Just by itself, it's a pretty good PW killer, discard punisher, and (if it resolved first) an anti-Counterbalance card. The cmc 3 is also highly favorable to harmonious deck building vs Chalice (only playing cmc 1, 3, 5 + proliferate mechanic) vs Chalice; though this is more of a UB configuration.

    Most important is the interaction with new Teferi (tap on their EoT, they have to take 12). Teferi noticeably causes positive feedback with Standstill (due to passive combo with manlands, higher land count, and ability to prevent opponent end of turn Standstill breaks) while pushing Scroll of Fate's not-casting [again Standstill] at instant speed.

    Less important would be friendliness towards Sol Land/Tomb/Chalice without distracting manabase with Cavern (this would actually be the first time Dreadnought made sense with Sol Lands). This card also has implications on possible UG builds (density of high quality morph/megamorph). This card is least helpful to UR Dreadstill, but is still a likely auto-include.

    UW benefits:
    -new Teferi
    -likely wrath friendly (this would allow for minimal creatures)
    -E Tutor
    -Standstill/manlands

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Just posting the new card for reference, I think I'll have to nab a set. I was just thinking the other day that I should trade/sell off my Dreadnoughts because I wasn't using them. That changed fast, lol.



    I really, really like that it makes good use of colorless lands. Even playing mono-blue the deck has always felt like a 2-color deck because of those lands. This is exactly the kind of effect that the deck could use. I was debating on swapping delver out with Retrofitter Foundry but those tokens die to W&6 the same as unflipped Delvers. Making 2/2 'tokens' is going to be much, much better.

    EDIT: Does this make Stratus Dancer playable in Legacy? Paying a total of 5 mana for a {edit: it isn't Negate, only does instant/sorcery} counterspell with legs is way overcosted in Legacy, but getting it down after playing a Scroll and then turning it face up for 1U seems pretty good. It doesn't matter how the morph happened, the wording on Dancer is 'whenever it is turned face up', so this works with Scroll. I'll probably nab a few and try it out.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Cards to think about with Scroll of Fate:
    -blue: Fathom Seer, Willbender, Stratus Dancer, Kheru Spellsnatcher, Mischievous Quanar, Riptide Survivor, Shorecrasher Elemental
    -green: Hooded Hydra (better with Mask), Sagu Mauler, Ainok Survivalist, Den Protector, Broodhatch Nantuko, Deathmist Raptor
    -black: Bane of the Living, Silumgar Assassin, Sultai Emissary, Ruthless Ripper, Qarsi High Priest

    Concepts to think about:
    -lands: Lotus Field (Stifle), Sol Lands, Safe Haven/Endless Sands
    -white: blinking as ramp (i.e. using Kaya/Aminatou/Eldrazi Displacer to ramp out non-creature permanents)
    -colorless: Karn (wish ability beats Surgical, allowing far fewer creatures beside Dreadnought)
    -blue: starting to get enough artifacts to look more seriously at keyword 'improvise' cards - particularly b/c of Astrolabe. There is also Frostwalk Bastion which can cast Astrolabe to allow much easier UXy color splashing while remaining on a Standstill plan
    -green: within the context of Lotus Field, Nissa, Vital Force is quite a bit easier to cast and is able to necro permanents when not going +1 mode. This color auto-includes Veil of Summer playset.

    Interesting options created by this new card, but with the amount of slots this card can open up we can also start looking at revisiting classic Dreadstill structure (without Trinket/CB/SDT) where Dreadnoughts are largely played alone alongside wrath effects (historically EE). The UW color combination is, for the first time, posing to become the strongest Dreadstill color combo. As a rather rough draft:

    4x Dreadnought
    2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

    3x Teferi, Time Raveler
    2x either Karn or Narset or other PW

    4x BS
    4x FoW
    4x Stifle
    4x Plow
    4x specialized countermagic (FoN/Snare mix perhaps)
    2x Verdict
    2x E Tutor
    2x Standstill
    1x Search for Azcanta
    1x Porphyry Nodes
    1x Scroll of Fate

    4x Strand
    3x Vista
    2x Plains
    3x Island
    1x Karakas
    1x Tundra
    3x Wasteland
    3x Factory

    The whole E-Tutor bit is optional (and perhaps incomplete, as Cursed Scroll would be a fine addition), and JVP could just as easily be SCM. This should be a pretty fun list to try out; the main advantage ofc being Teferi on board, EoT face-down Dreadnought, attack for 12, bounce Dreadnought (draw a card) and repeat.

  17. #3917
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I think Scroll seems better than just a one-of though. Especially considering that it seemingly can help mitigate several "issues" at once. It gives dead draws some function, it gets you bodies under Standstill, and can protect 'Naught from Edicts.

    Now, that doesn't solve issues of Swords, Push or Decay, but at least it is one "less" thing to have to worry about.

    Also, one note on White as well, it would allow one to run a Hall of Heliod's Generosity, but I don't think recurring Standstill is idea. However, considering how "useful" Scroll might be, perhaps Academy Ruins could be considering in a Mono-Blue version, since it can get back both "halves" of the 'Naught-Scroll "combo."
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I think Scroll seems better than just a one-of though.
    I agree, I think for my mono-blue version it will be take 2-3 slots. It seems so strong at stabilizing and presenting inevitability. It will likely take the Nimble Obstructionist slots I was using (jank addict here.) I was maindecking a Narset, but that could easily go to the sideboard now.

    Especially considering that it seemingly can help mitigate several "issues" at once. It gives dead draws some function, it gets you bodies under Standstill, and can protect 'Naught from Edicts.
    I does a lot for a deck with few threats, not just from Edicts but even just Fatal Push and Swords to Plowshares becomes a problem. Sometimes this deck can gain the upper hand and slam a Standstill, but then it's relying on Factories to get there. Getting a 2/2 at a minimum every turn in the late game will be very good against Miracles. Dreadnought will shine in the combo matchups and sometimes just 'get em' but is a little weaker to mid-range decks with a lot of removal. This changes the equation in a big way; at least I think it will considering the inevitability it can provide. I think I could even cut 1x Factory and include 1x Academy Ruins, which was a big no-no before because of the need for Factories as threats.

    Rough list for testing:

    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x Snapcaster Mage
    2x Scroll of Fate

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    4x Stifle
    3x Vapor Snag
    2x Dismember
    2x Spell Snare
    4x Standstill

    4x Wasteland
    3x Mishra's Factory
    1x Academy Ruins
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Scalding Tarn
    6x Island

    Sideboard
    2x Misdirection
    2x Sower of Temptation
    1x Vendilion Clique
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Echoing Truth
    2x Hydroblast
    2x Spell Pierce
    1x Dismember
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  19. #3919
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I does a lot for a deck with few threats, not just from Edicts but even just Fatal Push and Swords to Plowshares becomes a problem. Sometimes this deck can gain the upper hand and slam a Standstill, but then it's relying on Factories to get there. Getting a 2/2 at a minimum every turn in the late game will be very good against Miracles. Dreadnought will shine in the combo matchups and sometimes just 'get em' but is a little weaker to mid-range decks with a lot of removal. This changes the equation in a big way; at least I think it will.
    Well, if we did, hypothetically, go the Black route, there is also the option of including some jank like Cabal Therapist. You could Scroll it in, if need be, you can made any card you draw into a bad Therapy, clearing the way for 'Naught. You could even try some number of Unearth. There are definitely advantages for staying Mono-Blue, different advantages for going with White or Black.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @Mr.Safety & @H one of the main advantages of white is getting away with few copies, and if you add Karn into the mix you can stack extra copies in the board. The issue with white has primarily been bad timing (playing threats so you can’t really use Wrath-effects).

    When it comes to redundancy, a single copy of Mastery of the Unseen and Noxious Revival (which I’d rank higher than any Volrath’s Stronghold land) could easily be added, and would likely be more resilient than additional Scroll copies. With the free slots going to removal and Wrath-effects, you are pretty free to sit around and win on your own time. Then for any combo matchup you just bring in Surgicals/Canonist/C-Priest/RiP/etc... and keep doing your thing, forcing an opponent to deal with a battlefield you don’t really care about.

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