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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4141

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by crispymelee View Post
    [color=purple]When is the correct window to hit them with the Waste, if Thespian's is a "Basic Land" copy when it attempts to copy Depths?
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31820&iddeck=274586
    The thing is that dark depth decks use wasteland too.
    Their gameplan is to play Thespian's Stage and make it unwastable as soon as they can copying Swamp, Forest or one of your basics. They also have mana acceleration to do it (like Mox Diamond). Yes, you can hit dark depth in response to the Thespian's Stage activation. But if you are a deck non giving them a fast clock, they can
    - wait to find a Wasteland to get rid of your Wasteland before playing Dark depth
    - or if they have also Vampire Hexmage on the field they sacrifice in response to your wastelanding in response to their activation
    - they crop rotation in response and find another Dark Depth and not loosing the Stage
    - some play 4 pithing needle, some even maindeck https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31934&iddeck=275947
    For these reasons I suggested a split between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter.
    NOTE: Thespian's Stage after copying a basic land, is a basic land (unwastable) with still the ability to copy somthing.

    Myself, I stopped playing magic in 2012 and started again this year. Last decks I was playing were these
    (miracle with counter-top, canadian threshold and maverik metagames)
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8557&iddeck=62434
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8185&iddeck=59700
    but now, most of those cards are not playable anymore (except maybe for the angel but the side)

    Some cards that COULD be interesting in your deck can be
    - Brazen Borrower because of its versatility
    - Psionic Blast kills planeswalker istant speed, most creatures and can kill opponent 1 turn faster
    - Ponder is a card your list need to be more agile and set up your plays and find lands (not to draw dreadnought when you don't want it for example of to hide 2 from the top a bomb you don't want to be discarded by thoughtseize ...)
    - Arcum's Astrolabe solves you the mana color problems
    - Mystic Sanctuary to fetch when you want a Stifle back (maybe you have a Nought) or a Swords to Plowshares back (if the manabase gets ok).

    (I would cut at least Verdicts and put them in the side)

    This is what I'll test next turnament, a modified versione of the deck I made 4-0 last month in a Turin turnament
    (was 4th time in a row I win the local weekly turnament with mono U even with different lists, sometimes with Standstill and Mishra, Bolas, or with Trinket)
    But I haven't found a build so far I like with the 12/12. But now there are new interesting cards.

    2 Mystic Sanctuary
    6 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Wasteland

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Augur of Bolas this card works
    2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Brazen Borrower

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain

    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    2 Misdirection

    4 Stifle
    2 Vapor Snag
    2 Dismember

    Sideboard

    2 Ghost Quarter
    2 Psionic Blast
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Walking Ballista
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Karakas
    Last edited by frustanani; 10-11-2019 at 06:36 AM.

  2. #4142

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by frustanani View Post
    Yes, you can hit dark depth in response to the Thespian's Stage activation. But if you are a deck non giving them a fast clock, they can
    - or if they have also Vampire Hexmage on the field they sacrifice in response to your wastelanding in response to their activation
    Few clarifying points here from a Lands/Depths player... as noted earlier, you shouldn't Wasteland the Dark Depths in response to a Thespian's Stage activation because then all you're doing is destroying the Dark Depths and your opponent keeps their Thespian's Stage. You should Wasteland after the Stage copy resolves while the trigger is on the stack to create the Marit Lage with their new Depths copy. That way you destroy both the Stage and the Depths.

    There is another bonus of doing it this way as well. Imagine like in your Vampire Hexmage scenario that your opponent has both Stage and Hexmage in play. If your opponent decides to first use their Stage to copy Dark Depths and you decide to Wasteland their Depths in response then yes, they are able to activate Hexmage and make a token. However, let's say that you wait and let the Stage ability resolve. Now they have a copied Depths with zero counters and so the trigger to make a Marit Lage goes on the stack. If you Wasteland at this point then your opponent's Hexmage is useless. They are allowed to sacrifice their Hexmage and target the Depths but it does not cause it to re-trigger since there is already an instance of it on the stack.

  3. #4143
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    There's a lot going on vs Depths, and a good amount of subgame openers. It might be a mana denial opener, might be a Standstill game, might be a Dreadnought game, or it might be a PW game. They might play Needle, but they have to care about Wasteland, Karakas, Teferi (even just the static), and Karn. On top of all this they have to care about Stifle and Plow while both sides are playing the discard vs permission & Brainstorm in response lottery.

    The quicker their deck goes, the higher the variance. The slower they go, the more likely they are to have Crop Rot ravaged by Teferi static or start getting Strip Mine'd by Karn. There is an incredible amount of pressure on their hand to have a lot of things, and that's just for them to go off. They still have to play defense while all of this is happening, as we're also a combo deck. They can only withstand so many of their own 2-for-1 self (Mox, Hexmage, Stage/Depths, Crop Rot - that's around a third of their deck. If they start activating Reclaimer into Stifle we can bring that number up to around 24). All those Decays they're playing, well they can keep time walking themselves by drawing them - if I need them to tap out and use all their mana casting them, I'll give them a target.

    In your analysis of UW, you're putting too much importance on making a Dreadnought. The deck is built to never need to actually deploy one. If we're making Dreadnoughts vs Depths, it's primarily meant to dictate to an opponent how they will use their Decay. If we get into a Scroll game, it's bad for them; if we get to Scroll + Teferi (or Standstill) it's basically unwinnable, b/c Decay quickly turns into a completely dead card (to add to a growing pile of dead cards).

    When you advocate cutting Karn out of this picture, you suddenly have to try to win proactively. Forcing yourself into that situation [playing hard into Decay and Surgical], at the point of deck construction, is a far worse strategy than having a deck built to let Depths walk into all their 2-for-1's while we're sitting back drawing cards.

    On the other cards:
    -Brazen Borrower is fine. Probably not needed in UW, but it's fine.
    -Psy Blast is okay, but I'm not putting that in a maindeck and it's not really getting the most out of a SB slot.
    -Astrolabe is better in an E-Tutor build. There aren't enough slots to play 3-4x as the Dreadnought package is slot-intensive.
    -You can't afford to lose games b/c Mystic Sanctuary was in your opening hand. A single Tundra in hand is bad enough already.
    -Ponder means no Standstill, which means no Factory, which means Teferi is no longer playable, which means you're on UR Nought now. If I'm looking to play Standstill, I'm going to go from UR Dreadstill to just UW Standstill, and this gets us back to UW Dreadstill being the best user of Teferi (it covers the problems UW Standstill ran into). Yes, Ponder is good at finding lands, but it also means the deck doesn't have play to it, having bled off too many slots. The most important thing to understand about Ponder in Dreadnought is that it's going to pigeon-hole you towards playing a Dreadnought, which isn't exactly a winning plan. Consistency doesn't really help when the plan is underpowered.

  4. #4144

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    -Ponder means no Standstill, which means no Factory, which means Teferi is no longer playable, which means you're on UR Nought now.
    What's wrong in playing all ?
    I try to show you what I'm thinking about UW control with Dreadstill so that we understand better.
    Not these exactly 75 but something like this:

    1 Brazen Borrower
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Ponder (indeed with standstill)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Standstill
    2 Scroll of Fate
    3 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Psionic Blast
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    2 Daze
    1 Misdirection
    1 Force of Negation

    3 Mishra's Factory
    2 Wasteland
    1 Ghost Quarter
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Tundra
    1 Karakas
    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    Sideboard funny example:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Force of Negation
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Submerge
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Reins of Power
    1 Teferi's Response

    No more cc4 spells, No more WW mana Spells, but more blue lands, more istant spells, more manipulation
    More free counterspells to be more sure your spells resolve (which are stronger than avarage opponents' cards: Standstill, Scroll and Teferi).
    The only thing that is actually cutted is karn.
    It might be not top competitive (Dreadnought is ?!) but at least you can play the cards in your hand, which becomes an active hand.
    Playing spells and sharing them with the opponent is more fun than keeping cc4 bombs in your hand.

  5. #4145
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Verdict is an important effect which was allows us to sit around biding our time. Without it, you have forced yourself into being the beatdown and increased your reliance on Dreadnought connecting (especially since you're handing opponent life points with Plow). Your list isolates Dreadnought as absolutely integral to winning, which is a bad place to be - the opponent's wincon is killing 4 Noughts to the exclusion of all else (the rest of the creatures should be manageable).

    If this is your gameplan you immediately lose 2 slots as you have to go up to 4x Scroll due to the profound reliance on the Nought. You now have to pick cards that ensure sure Scroll can't ever be turned off. If we're stacking up your list against Depths, a turn 1 Needle on Scroll is either game over or -2 cards (FoW). You can make a Dreadnought with Stifle, but you're doing that into the 4x Decay deck now; so this is just a loss by default. Against a known entity, that can't change b/c of the nature of its construction, you just handed them the control role to the point that they are barely required to combo. This deck accounts for ~10% of the meta, and that 10% chunk of the meta is responsible for roughly 2 out of every 3 decks which has Decay (and it's the only significant competitor packing 3+ copies of Decay).

    There is nothing there to Ponder into that can play you out of a build-order loss to Depths. This is crucial to understanding the cost of Ponder - you can't use it to consistently assemble an underpowered plan and still succeed (see also Blade decks who are consistent, but more importantly consistently wrecked by comprehensively playing into Kcomm, Plague, and REB).

    This is where, despite the power of Teferi + Scoll, we recognize the structural flaws. Then we revert to UR, whose combo is counting to 20, with or without Dreadnought (b/c it can support aggressive creatures, like Delver, better - note that Delver is hurt by giving opponents life, because that is a resource that turns into draw steps). If you're not playing a wrath, your removal needs to be part of the count to 20 combo (Bolt) - if it isn't Bolt, you are losing games you shouldn't be.

    Now we've come full circle where UR Dreadstill is however good it is, but the walker that was made for us is in white. UW Standstill can't make forward progress with 3cmc Teferi until Terminus & Vial are combo-banned [this won't happen], or until they print a Port-proof [i.e. instant speed] wrath. It doesn't have much to do with which one is better (UW vs UR Dreadstill), because the game plans are fundamentally different. From the UW side it's about Dreadnought being the best Teferi shell. Your list moves away from that UW-colored assertion with every copy of Ponder it runs; every slot you lose to Ponder is a move away from manlands, which is a move away from Teferi's passive (conversely, we could also say this every copy is a move towards manlands and Teferi, but a move away from Dreadnought).

    In terms of what is fun in legacy, rewarding people for playing the lowest form of magic [value duders and kill spells] decidedly isn't. I'd rather they have 7 kill spells in their hand, an ever-dwindling land count that can't cast them, and EoT Dreadnoughts they can't do anything about b/c of a Teferi passive. Maybe next time they'll use a strategy that plays to win.

    ---
    Edit: on the Depths analysis the lack of Karn is more important than the Verdict. I can go into more detail about the build order loss your list has there, but the main thing to take away is that if the Depths player is competent they won't ever try to make a 20/20. They will win by default with 2/1 first strike and 3/4s. They win even harder if you ever put a Factory on board for them to copy. Your list's entire strategy against them would be to hope they fail to evaluate the situation and keep trying to make Lage.
    Last edited by Fox; 10-12-2019 at 12:02 AM.

  6. #4146
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I've got some more reps in with my mono-U, Scroll/Nought-reliant list, and began to suffer a series of crushing defeats the last few tries, amongst others from 3c Snow Control, UW Miracles, and Infect. The latter was probably due to my lack of experience with the matchup with a deck that is bad at being able to blocking early. All things considered, I can't shake the feeling that the Goddes of Luck is out to punish me a bit (last Friday, I had no less than six 7-card hands with zero lands during all my frantic mulliganing, and countered a whopping single Brainstorm off of a blind-flipped Counterbalance out of maybe ten such opportunities ;)) for whatever she thinks I deserve it for. I tested both Vantress Gargoyle (and quickly reached the conclusion that it's a trap card) and Brazen Borrower (a card that, afaict, it is absolutely justified getting excited about!). I don't think it's time for Stratus Dancer to be replaced, but for Brazen Borrower to be included. Not really sure what to cut yet (right now, I have two in the main over one Peordain and one Stratus Dancer).

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    2-2 today. Decks in room were Food Chain, Goblins, UW Vial stuff, 4c Delver, UR Delver, Grixis Delver, Moon Stompy, UB Shadow, and an unknown.

    -R1 vs Moon Stompy (2-0): game 1 on the draw, had a FoW for their Chalice and made a turn 2 Nought. Game 2 opponent mulls to 5, but gets their turn 1 Chalice to resolve followed by their turn 2 Chandra; I build to Karn and they are unable to ult Chandra sitting on 7 loyalty (Coating), they start losing lands and go on to concede. Game 2 Karn knocked out 3x Chalice x=1.
    -R2 vs 4c Delver (2-0): ran them out of resources, they died to something. Unless something interesting is happening in games of Delver, I'm mostly going to post the record. Both wins on the draw.
    -R3 vs Grixis Delver (1-2): lost die roll, won game 2. Opponent on Stifle, but their list doesn't have Wrenn. Their land-go play patterns negate any advantage they were trying to accrue by being on the play (I have no issue playing land-go), and they are able to win 2x on the play games which were navigated to topdeck wars - a statistically poor place for a Delver to be against my deck. While they didn't draw them, Arcanist is poorly positioned vs a Teferi-centric deck.
    -R4 vs UB Shadow (0-2): won the die roll, but variance happens sometimes; not concerned about this matchup. Pilot is solid player, no mistakes seen.

    Of note, both round 3 & 4 opponents were running Bitterblossom. Perhaps associate underpowered [no-Wrenn] Delver shells with this card again, despite Plague Engineer being a card. No changes at this time seem needed. JVP did fine today, forcing opponents into forced play patterns. I cut him down to 1x in post-board games vs Delver.

    Round 3 opponent didn't much like seeing my Karn at first. When I asked him to guess what I was tutoring (vs his on-board Delver) he had the disgusted retort of Lattice, but we both got a chuckle out of the Cursed Scroll I went for. Sadly they had exactly FoN (instead of FoW) in hand with <5 lands.

  8. #4148
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Excited to finally post up results and contribute some data and impressions. Here 's the list and SB I took to the event


    Went 2-3-1 today in my first tournament in a literal decade. All things considered, that's 1 more win than I was hoping to earn so I'm pleased with how I did. The losses I took I felt were fair and the opponents were obviously skilled and experienced with their lists. Areas that need the most improvement:
    - Sideboarding. It felt like I wasn't using enough of my SB to make a significant impact on a given matchup.
    - Rules familiarity. Rust was a factor, but as they say in Melee, "no johns". Thankfully, the group at the LGS was a great group a guys and were more than helpful in bringing me up to speed.
    - Meta/Matchup knowledge. Obviously things change in 10 years. Got a lot to read up on but I'm sure the games will get easier and I'll have a more concrete plan against more matchups moving forward.

    Round 1 vs Bomberman (0-2), 0-1 overall: I'm on the draw, and I have no idea what my opponent was playing. Island -> go. Was happy to see him run out Ancient Tomb -> LED t1; had a FoW waiting for it. Didn't expect a second LED to follow immediately after. He goes Chalice on 1 t1, drops a second Ancient Tomb for Chalice on 2 t2, and I'm effectively locked out until he goes nuts with Salvager, LED, and Ballista with.

    +1 Needle, +1 Engineered Explosives; -1 Karn, -1 Supreme Verdict - in hindsight, I could have put in RiP and E.Tutor to stop the combo shenanigans, -2(?) Standstill

    I felt safe taking out a Verdict not having really seen any critters G1, and G2 is a bit slower. Unfortunately he gets Cavern of Souls naming Humans, and I'm unable to stop his Mentor hitting the table and running me over with Monks.

    Round 2 vs Jund Midrange (2-0), 1-1 overall: G1 I get an incredible hand on the play. By t3, I've wasted one of his Bayous, and a Dreadnought gets in for the win swiftly.

    I faked sideboarding for the match, putting in 3 and taking out the same 3. The game ended too quickly for me to really see anything, but I didn't see anything that concerned me enough to change out the MB.

    G2 looks really shakey. All both of us hit are lands until the 5th turn or so. Early disruption took a Scroll and while I Mana Leaked the first Veil Lilliana, I had nothing for the second and the W6 that followed. StP answers his Plague Engineer and leave both his PWs open to Factory beats, keeping them off their ults. I'm able to buy enough time to land Karn. A Scroll fetch and a couple turns later, Dreadnought and a Manifested Scroll carry the day.

    Round 3 vs Red Stompy (2-0), 2-1 overall: The fastest match of my day. I have a Force for his t1 Chrome Mox attempt, and while he manages to stick a second, his t3 Blood Moon also meets a Force. A "hardcasted" Nought is enough to carry the game.

    same as Rd2, I simply took out the 4 cards I "sided" in

    G2 is unfortunate for him; he keeps a risky one-lander, and is unable to find land for 4 consecutive turns; Moxes are unable to resolve. By the time he starts to build a mana base, Karn and Scroll are active and he falls to a Manifested Nought.

    Round 4/5 vs Ichorid (1-2 and 0-2), 2-3 overall: Gonna group games 4/5 together since they went very similarly. I'm completely unversed in this matchup. That being said, I was able to take g2 from the first Ichorid player. Ashiok, EE, and CPriest were critical for slowing him down enough for my Nought to get in. G1 was within reach (he took himself down to 2 life between Cephalid Colosseum, City of Brass, and Mana Confluence and I had a Factory with activation mana), but I was unable to find either a Karn -> EE or a Verdict to clear his board. Rd 5 is a complete blowout.

    + 1 RiP, +1 Grafdigger's, +1 Tormod's, +1 Ashiok's, +1 Containment Priest, +1 E.Tutor; -1 Karn, -3 Standstill, -2 Spell Snare

    Round 6 vs Jeskai Control (1-1 on time), 2-3-1 overall: G1 is taken by me on the play, winning a counter spell war over an early Stifle targeting my Nought. He's unable to find StP in time.

    +1 E.Tutor, -1 Standstill

    We finish up G2, but with only 8 minutes left on the clock. Both of us played Land-> go for 4 turns straight, and my Factory beats on him to whole time. With him at 2 life left he hits draw first, and uses Accumulated Knowledge + Mystic Sanctuary to pull ahead (didn't realize it had Island typing). I don't have enough counters to deal with Narset, Small Teferi, AND JtMS.

    Highlights & Lowlights:
    + everyone loved to watch the deck. Looking at the results posted here over the past 6 months, no one ran anything close to this list so everyone got a kick out of seeing Noughts hit the board via Manifest.
    + Mana Leak. I took the feedback to heart; with the manabase being what it is, I went with a 1U permission instead of UU. It made a difference, and there was never a situation where I looked at it and wanted/needed a CS, except vs the Jeskai Control list.
    matchup and indecision/lack of a plan led to a lot of unforced errors.
    + Scroll of Fate. As good as advertised if not better. That being said, I was happy with 2x MB and the 3rd in the Side. It's an incredible tool to diversify and deepen threats we can play; UR versions should certainly run 3x minimum in the main.
    + Dreadstill as an archetype. Having finally gotten to play this list live, I can honestly say I love it. Being able to play a control role while still having meaningful, game-ending threats was fantastic. No game felt completely out of reach for me which wasn't something I could say when I piloted Landstill.
    + paper Magic. I'd forgotten how much fun it is to swing cardboard at other players. Looking forward to my next tournament.
    - First time playing vs Ichorid x2; not salty in the least. My opponents played well and were cool guys. Just a bummer not really being sure how to approach the matchup.
    - Spell Snare. Total times used: 0. Mana Leak ended up being more useful as it stopped a Liliana from hitting the table and a Trinisphere the game after. Everytime I had one, I ended up wishing it was a Pierce

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Not too bad for first time with the deck. On your 3x non-FoW counters, I wouldn't run Pierce over Snare. I quite like FoN x2 + Snare in this shell.

    Against Bomberman: don't cut Karn or Verdict. Forcing LED is best reserved vs Storm and Dredge. Try to avoid FoW on Chalice (depends on your hand; i.e. do you have Karn or Teferi + do you have Plow or Dreadnought/Stifle). Their only outlets to win are 4x Karn (highest priority to FoW), Salvagers, and Mentor (try and deal with these with Nought race or white cards). If you have a Karn line, you can pretty much let any Mytsic Forge resolve; also can be fine to let it resolve into a followup Teferi -3 (this will force them into predicted play pattern of -4 mana next turn). With your SB I like +1 EE, beyond that I'd mostly be looking at Crypt/Needle/E Tutor. I don't think the yard hate really matters that much (Karn can wish for all of it back), so an approach of +1 Nought, +1 Scroll, +1 EE also works. In terms of what to cut, I'd take out any Spell Snare for sure, and probably all counterspells not called FoW/FoN. Remaining cuts can come out of trimming SCM and Standstill. This is one of those matchups where you'd really want Humility registered in SB (this is where you could swap out a Verdict).

    Against Jund: minimal boarding seems fine. Just remember that they're a P-Fire deck (at least historically), so I'd bring in an Ashiok. Bringing in Crucible is probably fine. One thing to remember with Ashiok is that -1 self cannot be countered by Veil of Summer (they still lose GY). I would trim a Standstill and FoW.

    Against Moon Stompy: probably avoid FoW vs Chrome Mox (you have Teferi and Karn), remember that you can also Stifle the imprint. There's no hard and fast rules beyond this, you have to weigh every lock piece/creature/Blood Moon against your plan. For SB I'd bring in E-Tutor and EE, trim an SCM and a Standstill.

    Against Dredge: boarding looks correct, but you need to bring in E-Tutor as well. I like the cuts. Remember to Stifle the Narcomoeba & Cephalid when not threatening Nought. Trimming Teferi seems fine if you're not seeing more green cards than Golgari Grave Troll (Teferi stops Force of Vigor ideas from the board).

    Against UWx: Ashiok Ashiok Ashiok. Fluster is fine to bring in (cuts likely come from FoW), and RiP should pretty much come in every time you see SCM + REB. Side out 1x Plow and can trim a Standstill or 2nd copy of Plow (depends on their creature set). AK or not, UWx should be treated like a GY combo deck. Don't bring in bad cards (Grafdigger's), but do prioritize Karn -> wish Tormod's, which should generally be high on the list of plays you want to make. Kill red mana and keep them off of WW as best you can.

    Edit: really important to point out that any legacy deck that runs Karn almost certainly has a garbage matchup against an opposing Karn. Other Karn decks are turbo-linear and failed [at the point of deck construction] to have any reliable way to deal with an opposing Karn.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    /snip
    Thank you for all the pointers; they will definitely be helpful. Unsurprisingly, the decks I did the best against were the ones I had experience playing with.

    Of note was significant shift in the expected meta; it had been stable over the past 3 months in a roughly 40/40/20 split of Combo/Midrange/Linear Aggro & Control, yesterday saw a doubling of the of decks I'm broadly labeling "control" from September to October (17% -> 36%), taken almost entirely from the Midrange population. (~34% -> 15%).

    In the past, redundant & linear decks like Burn and Goblins gave Control fits; with CB/Top essentially a non-factor, I'm thinking I want to aim for a UR list to take to the next event.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    I've got some more reps in with my mono-U, Scroll/Nought-reliant list, and began to suffer a series of crushing defeats the last few tries, amongst others from 3c Snow Control, UW Miracles, and Infect. The latter was probably due to my lack of experience with the matchup with a deck that is bad at being able to blocking early. All things considered, I can't shake the feeling that the Goddes of Luck is out to punish me a bit (last Friday, I had no less than six 7-card hands with zero lands during all my frantic mulliganing, and countered a whopping single Brainstorm off of a blind-flipped Counterbalance out of maybe ten such opportunities ;)) for whatever she thinks I deserve it for. I tested both Vantress Gargoyle (and quickly reached the conclusion that it's a trap card) and Brazen Borrower (a card that, afaict, it is absolutely justified getting excited about!). I don't think it's time for Stratus Dancer to be replaced, but for Brazen Borrower to be included. Not really sure what to cut yet (right now, I have two in the main over one Peordain and one Stratus Dancer).
    How many Gargoyles were you playing? I am trying to figure out how many to play, as I see it as a good threat but not necessarily a build around. What about it makes do you think its a trap card?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I had two in the mainboard, and kept drawing those two copies ALL. THE. TIME. It was so annoying that I, at one point, publicly and jokingly complained to spectators of our round about its magically magentic nature ("wie Hundescheiße am Schuh"), and they would get amused whenever I drew, ponder-shuffle-drew, or mulliganed into yet another copy of Vantress Gargoyle.

    Most of the time, it was a 5/4 Artifact susceptible to critter removal, and just sat there as a symmetrical, poor Millstone knock-off. I attacked exactly once with it all night, and that was due to a Vision Charm conditional mode that's a pretty deperate move in itself in my book. I think it's pretty clear that Gargoyle is a high variance card, but the bottom of its potential range of effectiveness is way too low.

  13. #4153
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    I had two in the mainboard, and kept drawing those two copies ALL. THE. TIME. It was so annoying that I, at one point, publicly and jokingly complained to spectators of our round about its magically magentic nature ("wie Hundescheiße am Schuh"), and they would get amused whenever I drew, ponder-shuffle-drew, or mulliganed into yet another copy of Vantress Gargoyle.

    Most of the time, it was a 5/4 Artifact susceptible to critter removal, and just sat there as a symmetrical, poor Millstone knock-off. I attacked exactly once with it all night, and that was due to a Vision Charm conditional mode that's a pretty deperate move in itself in my book. I think it's pretty clear that Gargoyle is a high variance card, but the bottom of its potential range of effectiveness is way too low.
    Thanks for the insight, because I've been retooling my deck to get Standstill back in (to synergize with Scroll) and I was really wondering if Vision Charm was worth any slots. I was also thinking that I would want only 2 copies of Gargoyle, but in order to make Standstill work I would need the Factories again. Adding a bad card (Vision Charm) to make a mediocre card better (Gargoyle) doesn't seem like a recipe for success. However, with only Brainstorm as the cantrip Delver doesn't flip nearly as often as when playing a Ponder shell. I think the Scrolls are fantastic with Standstill and ok with Delver/Ponder (no extra cards from Standstill to feed it.)

    So my thoughts are these:

    1) Play Delver + Ponder, no Standstill, don't cap out on Scroll (2-3) because you won't have extra cards to feed it. Delver needs Ponder to flip consistently. With Delver, Vantress Gargoyle isn't needed because you have Delver/Dreadnought/Scroll/Factory for threats.

    2) Play full set of Scroll + Standstill to feed it. Factories are a must, Gargoyle becomes a little better as a late game threat because the pressure doesn't come from Delver but rather from Standstill + Scroll/Factory.

    I am thinking of going with the 2nd option, which is contradictory to my other list (Ponder, 18 lands, no Standstills/Factories) but I feel like in order to really make Scroll busted it needs Standstill.

    Here is my new list that I think has a lot more potential, because it takes full advantage of Scroll.

    2x Vantress Gargoyle
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4x Scroll of Fate
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    3x Dismember
    2x Vapor Snag
    1x Spell Snare
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Standstill
    4x Mishra’s Factory
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Misty Rainforest
    7x Island
    4x Wasteland
    Sideboard
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Sower of Temptation
    1x Misdirection
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Tormod’s Crypt
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Echoing Truth
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    No Winter Orbs (factories are too important) and 22 lands lets me play PW's (Narset/Jace). Vapor Snag is to have a turn 1 play that can bounce a creature into a t2 Standstill. I always flooded a ton with 4 Standstills, but with Scroll that flood turns directly into threats.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Thanks for the insight, because I've been retooling my deck to get Standstill back in (to synergize with Scroll) and I was really wondering if Vision Charm was worth any slots. I was also thinking that I would want only 2 copies of Gargoyle, but in order to make Standstill work I would need the Factories again. Adding a bad card (Vision Charm) to make a mediocre card better (Gargoyle) doesn't seem like a recipe for success. However, with only Brainstorm as the cantrip Delver doesn't flip nearly as often as when playing a Ponder shell. I think the Scrolls are fantastic with Standstill and ok with Delver/Ponder (no extra cards from Standstill to feed it.)

    So my thoughts are these:

    1) Play Delver + Ponder, no Standstill, don't cap out on Scroll (2-3) because you won't have extra cards to feed it. Delver needs Ponder to flip consistently. With Delver, Vantress Gargoyle isn't needed because you have Delver/Dreadnought/Scroll/Factory for threats.

    2) Play full set of Scroll + Standstill to feed it. Factories are a must, Gargoyle becomes a little better as a late game threat because the pressure doesn't come from Delver but rather from Standstill + Scroll/Factory.

    I am thinking of going with the 2nd option, which is contradictory to my other list (Ponder, 18 lands, no Standstills/Factories) but I feel like in order to really make Scroll busted it needs Standstill.

    Here is my new list that I think has a lot more potential, because it takes full advantage of Scroll.

    2x Vantress Gargoyle
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4x Scroll of Fate
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    3x Dismember
    2x Vapor Snag
    1x Spell Snare
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Standstill
    4x Mishra’s Factory
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Misty Rainforest
    7x Island
    4x Wasteland
    Sideboard
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Sower of Temptation
    1x Misdirection
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Tormod’s Crypt
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Echoing Truth
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    No Winter Orbs (factories are too important) and 22 lands lets me play PW's (Narset/Jace). Vapor Snag is to have a turn 1 play that can bounce a creature into a t2 Standstill. I always flooded a ton with 4 Standstills, but with Scroll that flood turns directly into threats.
    - Re: Vision Charm; I think if you're running at least 2-3 Scrolls, it may be redundant. Between 4 Stifles, a Scroll Karn could wish for in the SB, and 2 scrolls MB, I never found myself wishing for more Dreadnought enablers. If my experience on Sunday was anything to go by, you'd be saving a Factory in the red zone more often with Charm, than blinking/enabling our big boy.

    - I think you're totally right in wanting to get Standstills back in to pair with Scroll. Of the 6 games I won, in 4 I got to drop Scroll -> Standstill. Even when I wasn't Manifesting Dreadnoughts, a steady stream of Bears is no joke.

    - On Lands: I think you could safely cut down to 21 lands and use that slot for a singleton utility/bomb? Something like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, since you got Gargoyles going on? I'd probably cut a Wasteland. With 20, there was only a single game all day where I experienced any sort of mana issue that kept me from playing the game, and that's because I kept a very risky 1-lander with Brainstorm (read: my own fault).



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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Snap may actually be better then Vapor Snag. Since we have no way to abuse it can turn 2 bounce and deploy a SS.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  16. #4156
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Snap may actually be better then Vapor Snag. Since we have no way to abuse it can turn 2 bounce and deploy a SS.
    Snap would only be good if followed by a Standstill, otherwise it's an overcosted Unsummon. I don't have a lot of instant speed ways to take advantage of the spare 2 mana, maybe a timely Daze without bouncing lands. I think in most situations Vapor Snag's lower cost will be relevant. It doesn't come up very often, but that last point of life loss from Snag has actually won me some games.

    You've definitely got me thinking hard about these disruption slots, lol.
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  17. #4157
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by crispymelee View Post
    - Re: Vision Charm; I think if you're running at least 2-3 Scrolls, it may be redundant. Between 4 Stifles, a Scroll Karn could wish for in the SB, and 2 scrolls MB, I never found myself wishing for more Dreadnought enablers. If my experience on Sunday was anything to go by, you'd be saving a Factory in the red zone more often with Charm, than blinking/enabling our big boy.

    - I think you're totally right in wanting to get Standstills back in to pair with Scroll. Of the 6 games I won, in 4 I got to drop Scroll -> Standstill. Even when I wasn't Manifesting Dreadnoughts, a steady stream of Bears is no joke.

    - On Lands: I think you could safely cut down to 21 lands and use that slot for a singleton utility/bomb? Something like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, since you got Gargoyles going on? I'd probably cut a Wasteland. With 20, there was only a single game all day where I experienced any sort of mana issue that kept me from playing the game, and that's because I kept a very risky 1-lander with Brainstorm (read: my own fault).


    -I have the full set of Scrolls, they are too good to play less an 4. So I have 8 dreadnought enablers, which is penty.
    -I think Scroll makes Standstill playable, otherwise I don't think it's as good as Ponder. Just my small sample size of experience.
    -21 Lands is ok in most cases, and I wouldn't hesitate to even go to 20 with Ponder included. With Scroll, extra lands are actually great as 2/2's. I want 22 to feed Scroll and to help cast PW's/Sower out of the sideboard.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    So, my focus as UR is to count to 20 as fast and consistently as possible. Compared to UW, this suggests to me:

    1. Bigger emphasis on creatures and Noughts --> more enablers
    2. Need direct non-creature sources of damage. --> reach, ideally repeatable
    3. Need ways to force through #1 and #2. --> counters, redundancy

    So, using Rood's list as a starting point, came up with this.

    The biggest changes being in the manabase and the addition of The Royal Scions. What do you guys think of him as a supporting card in UR builds?
    + High initial Loyalty
    + He loots(ala Merfolk Looter)
    + Grants a neutered Sword of Vengeance (no Haste or Vigilance) to Factories and Delvers
    + Relevant Ult
    + Pitches to Force
    - Does nothing to control the board the turn he comes down.
    - takes up Scroll Slots/Ponder/Utility slots
    - Worst case scenario, 3 mana to loot or be a really bad thunder strike

    Given that I'm "only" running Brainstorm and Standstill, some other source of card draw/filtering seems nice. If he's ignored, he builds up to a nice ultimate. Possibly buys a turn or two of damage away from your face. His looting potentially fuels Lavaman, though I don't run have him in this current build since he feels like he ONLY provides reach with such a fragile body, which brings me to...

    Delver. Only 23 Instants seems low (Rood's base list has 24). At what point should I drop him and go for Lavaman or a different low-cost beater?

    As always, looking forward to hearing all you guys' thoughts on this.

  19. #4159
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    For 3 mana planeswalkers on UR im much higher on Narset and Mu Yanling for legacy. Scions imo is worse then baby Jace.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  20. #4160

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by crispymelee View Post
    So, my focus as UR is to count to 20 as fast and consistently as possible. Compared to UW, this suggests to me:

    1. Bigger emphasis on creatures and Noughts --> more enablers
    2. Need direct non-creature sources of damage. --> reach, ideally repeatable

    1 slot for Fling ?

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