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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4541
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Discuss.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Discuss.

    Discuss what?
    Is the aim to snipe an opposing Oko by turning it into a Dreadnought?
    Or are you going to try and do some token storm thing and get half rounded down Dreadnoughts for yourself?
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-14-2021 at 09:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Discuss what?
    Is the aim to snipe an opposing Oko by turning it into a Dreadnought?
    Or are you going to try and do some token storm thing and get half rounded down Dreadnoughts for yourself?
    This deck doesn't play enough lame creatures for the other side to turn their oko into.

    If this was used in merfolk over phantasmal image, then maybe. But i rather have another phantasmal image than this. At least with image, I can copy a silvergill. This one i'm hoping to get a silvergill

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Card is overpriced, currently around $8.50, when it should be worth about $1. It should be added to UW build over Snare, and trialed at 1-2x in UR (I'd probably start with SB here).

    The backup mode: mangle dude or PW spells through Veil and Leyline of Sanctity.
    The Stifle mode: target enemy dude, turn Dreadnought (or any card with Scroll) into said dude. Of note cycle Shark for 0 will create a clone. This also can be used to turn whatever into Factory.
    The defense mode: they target Nought with removal, response target Nought, activate Scroll (or cycle Shark or flip JVP), get copy-Nought -> sac OG Dreadnought.
    Anti-discard: hides in face down exile vs Duress/Seize. [anti-Depths]
    Pro-Standstill: dump to exile at instant speed on our turn; so 8 card hand size with Standstill.

    @KobeBryan incorrect. We play plenty of creatures with Factory and Scroll. Unlike other decks that would misuse this card, we can turn enemy spells suicidal or into Wasteland targets [or just ignore since Factory can't attack into Factory] or into 2/2's they can't unmanifest. We can also go Karn -> Liquimetal -> animate enemy PWs and start copying those. It's doing all this while being a 5th Stifle, albeit atypical. It is very much in line with Depths hate, the Standstill plan, and being able to neuter Oko. We also have the tools to pick these fights including Teferi passive if UW and a large number of instant speed creature generation to keep Ice-Fang from interrupting a sequence (JVP is another card that can go over Ice-Fang).

    @PirateKing the point of Dreadnought decks is not to make a 12/12, but rather for this to be a thing we can do. There is no need to play a multi-token-at-once do-nothing card (which is already requiring a 2-3 mana setup cost, likely in the same turn). No need to bend over backwards to make more Dreadnoughts; going all-in isn't the plan. We combo sideways, preferring cards that advance every plan the deck has, rather than piling up on one.

  5. #4545
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Discuss what?
    Is the aim to snipe an opposing Oko by turning it into a Dreadnought?
    Or are you going to try and do some token storm thing and get half rounded down Dreadnoughts for yourself?
    The big implication, at least for my approach as a mono-blue player, is to synergize it with Scroll of Fate and Dreadnought. It forces a sacrifice trigger for opponents when they play Uro/Oko so it basically 'counters' those creatures. With Scroll of Fate you can target a manifest token and opponents don't get their Uro/Arcanist/Oko/Emrakul/Griselbrand/Hullbreacher and instead get a creature that is easy to trade with your own manifest tokens. I think the biggest allure is that it's a trick that can be 'hidden' under a standstill: once opponent's are ready to crack a standstill with a decent threat you can still respond with this to make the threat useless.

    I'm not saying it's great, but it has potential. Dreadstill is known for trying obscure cards, just look at Vision Charm, Illusionary Mask, and Torpor Orb. What I like about this card is:

    1) It's blue 'removal' that *doesn't target*, useful for Emrakul, Marit Lage, and other problematic creatures. It even works on Progenitus. Big implications with Natural Order and any other creature-based combo decks.
    2) It has a potential upside with the possibility of copying a Dreadnought/Borrower
    3) It has the ability to hid under a Standstill so it limits your opponent's plays even further with Standstill on the battlefield.

    It may not be good enough, but I like to see new cards slotted into this deck. It's a pet deck that I'm always evaluating for improvements.

    EDIT: I want to make note of Fox's post above as well - you can activate a Factory and make a creature enter as a factory, then wasteland it, without targeting. I think this could be really useful.
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  6. #4546

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Card is overpriced, currently around $8.50, when it should be worth about $1. It should be added to UW build over Snare, and trialed at 1-2x in UR (I'd probably start with SB here).

    The backup mode: mangle dude or PW spells through Veil and Leyline of Sanctity.
    The Stifle mode: target enemy dude, turn Dreadnought (or any card with Scroll) into said dude. Of note cycle Shark for 0 will create a clone. This also can be used to turn whatever into Factory.
    The defense mode: they target Nought with removal, response target Nought, activate Scroll (or cycle Shark or flip JVP), get copy-Nought -> sac OG Dreadnought.
    Anti-discard: hides in face down exile vs Duress/Seize. [anti-Depths]
    Pro-Standstill: dump to exile at instant speed on our turn; so 8 card hand size with Standstill.

    @KobeBryan incorrect. We play plenty of creatures with Factory and Scroll. Unlike other decks that would misuse this card, we can turn enemy spells suicidal or into Wasteland targets [or just ignore since Factory can't attack into Factory] or into 2/2's they can't unmanifest. We can also go Karn -> Liquimetal -> animate enemy PWs and start copying those. It's doing all this while being a 5th Stifle, albeit atypical. It is very much in line with Depths hate, the Standstill plan, and being able to neuter Oko. We also have the tools to pick these fights including Teferi passive if UW and a large number of instant speed creature generation to keep Ice-Fang from interrupting a sequence (JVP is another card that can go over Ice-Fang).
    • Backup mode: how often do we have a dreadnought in play and arenít winning? It does seem decent with factory/scroll.
    • Stifle mode: paying 4 mana and 2 cards for a spark double that can easily be blown out seems pretty bad. Opportunity cost would be something like stifle bird which is not dazeable or card disadvantage.
    • Defense mode: this seems great as a decay answer but requires a decent mana investment.
    • Discard/standstill: no argument there, this is great.
    • Manifest: if you turn a (non-token) creature into a manifest why canít they unmanifest? It should copy the manifest ability right? Canít they just pay the mana cost to get it back? I need a judge to explain what happens with a Marit Lage token though.

  7. #4547
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    [*]Backup mode: how often do we have a dreadnought in play and arenít winning? It does seem decent with factory/scroll.
    If you haven't gotten a lot of time in with Dreadstill, its certainly possible to lose with a Dreadnought in play. It's actually pretty fragile against most of Legacy's removal. It's niche, but sniping a Snapcaster Mage that would flashback a Swords to Plowshares is nice. Having a way to recover from a removal by copying a Dreadnought (and sacrificing the original) seems like a really good way to overpower removal.

    [*]Defense mode: this seems great as a decay answer but requires a decent mana investment.
    It's 2 mana, which is the same as Trickbind, which has gone in/out of the deck over time. The deck plays in the ballpark of 21-24 lands, it's not hard making land drops and making it happen. Hiding it under a standstill is fine, the deck plays a lot of draw/go and most of our counterspells don't cost mana. If you have it already in exile due to the foretold cost, I find it hard to believe a player would waste an Abrupt Decay when known information tells them it would be risky.

    [*]Manifest: if you turn a (non-token) creature into a manifest why canít they unmanifest? It should copy the manifest ability right? Canít they just pay the mana cost to get it back? I need a judge to explain what happens with a Marit Lage token though.
    Yes, they can then flip it over if it is an actual creature card for its mana cost. Marit Lage doesn't work and PW's wouldn't work. One of the common uses for Scroll of Fate is turning dead Daze's and extra lands into 2/2 tokens; non-creature cards can't be flipped. For creatures like Arcanist they will still get their dude, unless you deal with it additionally (Wasteland/Factory trick) but what are the odds a Reanimator player will be able to hardcast Griselbrand or a Show and Tell player able to hardcast Emrakul? Marit lage is a non-bo because it's a token.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @Reeplcheep
    -A classic response to Dreadnought is specifically a PW (JTMS, Teferi, Lilly, Oko, etc); we are very interested in Stubborn Denial-types that punish egregiously high-cmc sorcery speed answers.
    -This card by definition can't be blown-out. You use this card upfront, and they have to do something about it. If they don't it gets real bad real quick with uncounterable options (Scroll, Shark'nado, JVP flip). All of this is assuming an opponent can even respond [Teferi passive]. Understand that spamming this card on EoT + cycle for 0 is incredibly abusive as it's risk free. The idea of target a thing, then turn a hardcast Dreadnought into that thing is not a primary plan.
    -You can't unmanifest PWs, and if a creature enters face-down it cannot use ETB clause nor "as it enters" clauses.

    Rules get real messy when you turn a token into a manifest. My gut feeling is that a token "ceases to exist" since it's not a legitimate game object; so it's just a 2/2 that will have no template to un-manifest to. Now none of this token-manifest theory matters unless some card attempts to turn it face-up...but even these effects will say "turn a face-down card." The rule you care about is "Put that card onto the battlefield face down as a 2/2 creature. Turn it face up any time for its mana cost if it's a creature card.

  9. #4549

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I am coming around to the card. However the ďThis turnĒ clause means you can certainly get blown out.

    Say your t3 is this into sharkstill EOT to copy an arcanist. If they daze this you just got set back 3 (arguably 5!) mana.
    Alternatively if you this into activate scroll and scroll activation gets stifled you just got double time walked.

    Thanks for explaining the token interaction since most of the morph rules refer to permanents not cards.

    Edit: this card is not 2 mana. This is the Wishclaw/demonic tutor/grim tutor thing all over again. TES (and uro) has shown us that 2 mana upfront then 1 mana on the critical turn is much better than 3 mana. However vintage shows us that itís still not better than 2 mana on the critical turn.

  10. #4550
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Face-down stuff goes back to OG phasing rules, where the battlefield acts like a coin (one half phased in, one half phased out, still the same zone; and this idea of doing a zone change in every sense, with the understanding that you're staying in the same zone). This is why tokens did, and still should, be exiled on phase-out. The face-down side of cards originally "lived" in the phased-out zone, operating on this same concept that the battlefield is two half-zones. Sufficed to say, it gets messy quick, and I doubt face-down rules account for this scenario since the phased-out zone was disappeared by a wall of rules. The tldr would be that OG rules dictate a token ceases to exist as a template to be turned face-up; so even if an effect says "turn face-down creature face-up," it would just stay as a 2/2 nothing.

    On the 'blowout' scenario, you're describing a 1-for-1, which is still winning as our deck did not 2-for-1 itself. If we cast this card and they discard Stifle on Scroll they're down a mana and a card. If they Daze, we let it go, untap and no longer play around Daze. If we cast the card, then cycle Shark for 0 and they Stifle the 0/0, we still draw a card; it's still a 1-for-1.

    Edit: there is also this question of if Marit Lage ceases to exist face-down...can we even make a 2/2 manifest token...or does it have to be a card...so they can only try make a Lage into manifest, but fail and they get nothing at all. Rules unclear here. The closest we've ever come to this is Ixidron, but notice the non-token wording.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Is Face Down even a copiable attribute? Would the opponent's creature enter as a facedown 2/2 or just as a 2/2? Ixidron is different. It takes creature cards on the battlefield (nontoken) and turns them face down, instead of turning things into copies of an existing 2/2 face down creature.

    Either way, I do agree this card looks very appealing with Scroll of Fate, opening up many different interactive lines of play.

    Edit: Comp rules confirm that Face Down status is not a copiable attribute. The other creatures enter as a copy of the Manifested token, but they are Face Up 2/2s. Marit Lage will not be face down.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is Face Down even a copiable attribute? Would the opponent's creature enter as a facedown 2/2 or just as a 2/2? Ixidron is different. It takes creature cards on the battlefield (nontoken) and turns them face down, instead of turning things into copies of an existing 2/2 face down creature.

    Either way, I do agree this card looks very appealing with Scroll of Fate, opening up many different interactive lines of play.
    I mean that's the question right. We have a legal target, and we know you can't copy unknown information (the face-down thing). So at best you get a 2/2 with no text if a token is being hit....but given that phased-out zone hated hard on tokens, and OG morph had face-down sides living in phased-out zone...the token should cease to exist, and it probably takes the vanilla 2/2 body with it. While you can take away the zone, nothing ever changed with all the rules of the zone.

    There's also a foggy rules question where if a creature enters as a face-up manifest, meaning there is nothing face-down to flip into, are you again stuck with a vanilla 2/2 with no text?

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    See edit above. Face Down is not copiable.
    https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Face_down
    https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr706/

    This interaction already would have come up in the past with any cards that create token copies of other creatures, e.g. Cackling Counterpart on a Morph or Manifest. The interaction is the same. The copy is a Face Up vanilla 2/2 with no text. It is already Face Up, so it cannot be morphed or otherwise turned face up, even if the original card had a morph cost.

    So yes, this + Scroll of Fate is pretty much a non-targetting Frogify vs Marit Lage, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Progenitus, Oko, Karn, Uro...


    Relevant Rules
    706.2 When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original objectís characteristics [...]. The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty).

    Face down, tapped, exerted, and some other card statuses are beyond the text printed on the object and not copiable values.

    707.2a If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability that doesnít list any characteristics for that object, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost. A permanent that enters the battlefield face down also has these characteristics unless otherwise specified by the effect that put it onto the battlefield face down or allowed it to be cast face down. These values are the copiable values of that objectís characteristics.

    If you manifest a card with Scroll of Fate, the copiable values of that creature are just "2/2", "0 cmc", "no text", "no creature types", "no name". Face down is not among them. Marit Lage enters with the copiable values: it becomes a Face Up 0 cmc colorless 2/2 creature with no abilities, no text, no name, and no creature types.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    This makes the card even better. I think I'll nab some copies, if only to tool around with.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I think maybe today was last day of spoilers, so here's what I'm seeing:
    Dreadstill
    -Mystic Reflection: discussed in above posts, now down to $3.99 which is a reasonable price for the 2x we will try.
    StifleNought
    -Tales of the Ancestors more of a card for StifleNought since they can only dump hand and lack CA. Easy to see how this dodges discard with foretell and then turns into a draw 2+
    -Ascendant Spirit almost good enough to drop Delver in Dreadstill. MonoU really shouldn't be played, but this card is quite a bit better than whatever the next best thing is after Delver. Would never play Pteramander anyways, and this card drives that point home.
    Near misses for Karn
    -Maskwood Nexus: this card is almost a good enough 1x in SB for Karn (assembly worker generator); never paying more than 50 cents for this lol.
    -Cosmos Elixir: again the Karn wish stuff, pretty easy to get over 20 with Plow in deck. Not good enough for a slot, but again it was close.
    ---
    On the not-legacy spec stuff...
    -Cosmic Intervention for legacy it's a bad Sevinne's, but seems like a card modern might use. Price looks to be around $4, happier at picking them up for $1-2 in case modern ramps price.
    -Rise of the Dread Marn: I feel like costing 1 mana after you ante up the foretell cost leads to pretty easy line of wrath -> make an army. It's at $1, so it's the card I'll spec a bit on.
    -Frost Augur: listed at 25 cents, Scrying Sheets listed at $27. Seems like a pretty low risk spec.
    -Invasion of the Giants: so it Preordains, then you get a free shock trigger with Stomp/Bonecrusher Giant reveal from hand, then you get a 4/3 for . Feels like something modern would do taking a 25 cent card to like $3.
    -Kaya, the Inexorable technically UBw Landstill could run a copy, but you read the ult and can see how it this could easily overwhelm standard. Probably a reasonable spec around $10 for ~2-4 copies. Probably fine to wait a week or so after release to see if it drops further.
    -Sarulf, Realm Eater currently under $2, wouldn't really spec on it, but it's a good price to pick it the only 1-2 you'd ever want.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Mono-blue also gets Bind the Monster, which is at least an upgrade from Vapor Snag. After getting Scroll of Fate and Brazen Borrower the deck gets much closer to U/Colorless with every new card rather than U/X/Colorless. Mono-blue already plays like a 2-color deck because of so many colorless lands, which has always been my reasoning for avoiding a splash color (other than I can't afford Volcanic Islands, lol.)

    The card that actually seems pretty good is Dream Devourer. The potential with Standstill seems really good. Once black is splashed it also gives decent removal with Fatal Push/Eliminate and opens up cards like Dark Confidant and Death's Shadow (which would be the delver sub.) Deathnought wasn't ever truly as good as I wanted it to be, but I'll be damned if I don't try it again some time soon.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    The problem with Bind the Monster is that you're still taking damage, just like you would with Dismember. You also pick up losing to Chalice, losing to Pyroblast, and losing to FoV. Also, Dismember gets HullyB passive off the field.

  18. #4558

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The problem with Bind the Monster is that you're still taking damage, just like you would with Dismember. You also pick up losing to Chalice, losing to Pyroblast, and losing to FoV. Also, Dismember gets HullyB passive off the field.
    You take a lot less damage dealing with the normal threats of legacy though. Delver, noble, swift spear, goblin lackey, arcanist, dryad arbor, elvish reclaimer...

    It is also considerably better vs things dismember would rather not or canít kill. Uro, Hogaak, stitcherís supplier, vet explorer, goyf, big kotr, etc.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Look at those threats again @Reeplcheep. You're putting a blue enchant on board and giving it a free attack's worth of damage. They all play Pyroblast or FoV or Decay.

    I can't stress this enough though: you cannot play this card vs untappers, even the single Scryb Ranger of Maverick. Just take the loss on Dismember, and be happy with killing TKS and HullyB through Chalice.

  20. #4560

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Look at those threats again @Reeplcheep. You're putting a blue enchant on board and giving it a free attack's worth of damage. They all play Pyroblast or FoV or Decay.

    I can't stress this enough though: you cannot play this card vs untappers, even the single Scryb Ranger of Maverick. Just take the loss on Dismember, and be happy with killing TKS and HullyB through Chalice.
    Maverick isnít playing that anyways; elves sure. Complaining about decay/fow/pyro in your monoU dreadnought deck seems silly. Uro is the most played creature in the format which should be reason enough to play it. Not to mention game 1 bolt to the face is more common than pyro.

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