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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4241
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    When every card combos with every other card in your deck, you have less need for Ponder. The issue with mono-U remains that it's not a functioning deck if the opponent can either lock-out Scroll or remove Dreadnought (either from the deck or from being relevant); building up <<< building sideways. Cantripping deliberately towards either of those two opens up loss to Narset/Leo, and there is no compensation in terms of alternate play patterns unlocked.
    Isn't building up Standstill and Ponder sideways? I don't understand your point.

    Also, i think relying too much on synergy opens you up to bigger variance. Ponder would go a long ways towards reducing variance.

    I'm not worried about Narser or Leovold, and Standstill suffers the same problem but with even more conditions.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    With mono-U it's about realizing the wincon is Scroll then Dreadnought; in some games the 'hardcast' and protect the queen plan is fine ofc. You're never really accounting for not having Scroll into they dealt with the hardcast Nought, and now you're down on cards which you can't recover. Ponder lets you double down re-finding this plan, but it's probably not going to work the second time if it didn't work the first time; with every following Nought, the hand shrinks and it becomes quite easy for the opponent to predict what you're capable of, and more importantly, what your tempo is.

    In my build Teferi works by himself, he makes Scroll/Nought better, he makes manlands [and by extension, Standstill] better. Standstill changes the tempo rules of the game and it covers the card disadvantage of Nought. Nought injects absurd amounts of tempo-warping into this shell and maximizes ability to exploit moments of weakness (which are potentially massive windows if Teferi is around). None of these things have to come together in a set sequence, nor is there only one endgame. All these gears grind in the same direction: destabilizing a game of legacy away from normal legacy tempo until the opponent's deck breaks, lacking the tools to operate at non-linear speed. Stifle and Wasteland dump more fuel on the tempo fire, you get the wrath reset button, and then Karn comes in to redefine the rules of the game and warp card evaluation. Now I could play Ponder, but everything is already doing the same thing, and I don't really care about linearly pursuing a proactive plan so much as derailing the opponent's plan in the most damaging sequence.

    Ponder definitely helps set mana up early on, but it doesn't threaten to increase power - the only way it really pays off is if you find a PW or a card that can end the game (like SnT). Your mono-U list has plenty of mana security already, so given how all-in you are on Dreadnought connections, something like Portent target them burying Decay is a far more potent effect than Ponder can grant (and it draws through Narset/Leo). Without Bolt/Standstill it is much more difficult to dictate how opponents must play at points in the game of your choosing.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    With mono-U it's about realizing the wincon is Scroll then Dreadnought; in some games the 'hardcast' and protect the queen plan is fine ofc. You're never really accounting for not having Scroll into they dealt with the hardcast Nought, and now you're down on cards which you can't recover. Ponder lets you double down re-finding this plan, but it's probably not going to work the second time if it didn't work the first time; with every following Nought, the hand shrinks and it becomes quite easy for the opponent to predict what you're capable of, and more importantly, what your tempo is.

    In my build Teferi works by himself, he makes Scroll/Nought better, he makes manlands [and by extension, Standstill] better. Standstill changes the tempo rules of the game and it covers the card disadvantage of Nought. Nought injects absurd amounts of tempo-warping into this shell and maximizes ability to exploit moments of weakness (which are potentially massive windows if Teferi is around). None of these things have to come together in a set sequence, nor is there only one endgame. All these gears grind in the same direction: destabilizing a game of legacy away from normal legacy tempo until the opponent's deck breaks, lacking the tools to operate at non-linear speed. Stifle and Wasteland dump more fuel on the tempo fire, you get the wrath reset button, and then Karn comes in to redefine the rules of the game and warp card evaluation. Now I could play Ponder, but everything is already doing the same thing, and I don't really care about linearly pursuing a proactive plan so much as derailing the opponent's plan in the most damaging sequence.

    Ponder definitely helps set mana up early on, but it doesn't threaten to increase power - the only way it really pays off is if you find a PW or a card that can end the game (like SnT). Your mono-U list has plenty of mana security already, so given how all-in you are on Dreadnought connections, something like Portent target them burying Decay is a far more potent effect than Ponder can grant (and it draws through Narset/Leo). Without Bolt/Standstill it is much more difficult to dictate how opponents must play at points in the game of your choosing.
    I was looking at Ponder from the other side of the coin. I'm not using it as a way to 're-find' the combo, I would be using it as a way to craft the correct hand to play + protect a threat (Scroll, Dreadnought, Delver) just like any other tempo deck. In games I had the nuts, well, I had the nuts. Those are easy games to pilot. Games where variance was a big issue could have been made significantly better, percentage-wise, with Ponder.

    I'm not all-in on Dreadnought connecting, although that is certainly the fastest way to win. I would rather start with a t1 Delver and a fistful of counterspells, honestly. What I really missed, truly, was hard removal that didn't cost me life (Bolt, Fatal Push, StP, etc. instead of Dismember.) I also ran into card shortages (as you say) that weren't recovered by Standstill (which is lousy when behind.)

    Also, don't forget, I certainly made misplays that I didn't recognize as such. Ponder is a less skill-testing card than Standstill, which may help me learn how to play blue before diving into the deep end of this unique deck. I also read comments like 'just pound their face in, you're a combo deck' which supports the idea of just playing Ponder to craft threat + protection. Others, like Rood, have said that Standstill without hard removal gets significantly worse.

    So long story short, I'm going to try Ponder for a little while with 3x Standstill in the sideboard. Standstill breaks open the blue matchups but tends to be a distraction from threat + protect plan.

    4x Delver
    4x Dreadnought
    4x Scroll of Fate
    2x Brazen Borrower
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Stifle
    4x Force of Will
    4x Daze
    1x Force of Negation
    2x Spell Snare
    1x Spell Pierce
    2x Vapor Snag
    2x Dismember
    7x Fetch
    7x Island
    4x Wasteland

    Sideboard
    3x Standstill
    2x Sower of Temptation
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    3x Misdirection
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post

    4x Delver
    4x Dreadnought
    4x Scroll of Fate
    2x Brazen Borrower
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Stifle
    4x Force of Will
    4x Daze
    1x Force of Negation
    2x Spell Snare
    1x Spell Pierce
    2x Vapor Snag
    2x Dismember
    7x Fetch
    7x Island
    4x Wasteland

    Sideboard
    3x Standstill
    2x Sower of Temptation
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    3x Misdirection
    @Mr. Safety I totally feel you re: Ponder. This was basically my experience earlier this year when I made the switch from U(b) Stiflenought to Rood's classic list (give or take a few cards). I had just gotten comfortable playing the blue tempo shell (and make no mistake: BS and Ponder are by no means easy cards to play optimally) and swapping Ponders for Standstills felt like kicking off the training wheels but then blindfolding yourself on top of it. I also felt that Standstill exacerbated the already-egregious play/draw dependence in a tempo-heavy format. I think by now I'd be more confident piloting Dreadstill, but I just have a ton of respect for its extremely variable role-assignment between tempo/control/combo. So if you're still just learning how to play blue, starting out with Standstill is ambitious to say the least. (but by all means, go for it if you're cool with losing a lot at first. It's a steep learning curve.)

    Meanwhile, a couple of notes on your updated list:

    Quick one: threat curve 4 | 4 | 6 (Delver; hardcast PDs; Scrolls + Bounce Faerie) calls for a 19th land.

    The other thing is that I can't help feeling that Mono-U is a slightly yet strictly worse Ponder list than a red or especially black splash would offer. My own UB list is really close to yours at this point, just that I have access to better removal (currently 2 F Push & 1 T Scorn out of the side, plus the super-flexible Drown in the Loch as a 1-of in the main [@Fox is right: we can't really afford potentially dead cards G1]; Plague Engineer would be another consideration) and MD discard, which is amazing for the information; while remaining fully Wasteland-proof. (Think of the evolution of Mono-U Omniscience decks that all started splashing a secondary color at some point cuz it essentially comes at no drawback)

    So if I wanted to stick with mono-U and Ponder, I'd look for different avenues towards leveraging that as an advantage. First thing comes to mind would be a Counterbalance + Mystic Sanctuary Package, for example. The other route would be leaning heavier on Scroll shenanigans with Stratus Dancers, Vision Charms, Vantress Gargoyles, but I'm unsure what the right mix would be there.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Thanks for the response, I also agree that play/draw is a huge factor. As far as Ub Stifle-Nought, I'm tinkering with Death's Shadow. It's another big beater (which is what I want!) but also has access to discard and good removal. Standstill wouldn't be part of that equation, it would have to be BStorm/Ponder/Street Wraith for draw spells. I essentially shaved a few slots down to 3 to fit in the set of Stifle and replaced Gurmag/Tombstalker with 3x Dreadnought. Is it good? Probably not, but I can't help but tinker. I've been formulating a plan Shadow/Dreadnought, and it might be just bad. In theory it should be great due to having 7-8 free counterspells, 3-4 targeted discard, and a ton of cantrips/draw to smooth it out. I wouldn't be opposed to playing Standstill in the sideboard of a deck like that to shore up Grixis Control/Miracles/4C control matchups, but that remains to be seen.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Only six decks in the room today: UW[x?] miracles, Styrfo pile~4c WrennOko [no Delver, no white, has Grove/Pfire], Gobbos, RGw Lumberjack (basically Punishing Maverick w/ Depths combo and Wrenn), another Oko-soupy deck (unsure of colors), and manifest destiny.

    R1 vs Gobbos (2-1): Game 1 they have two Vials and on the draw I can't quite get Karn down followed by Verdict; could only cast 1 and no sequence was winning (meaningless to wrath into 2x Vial on 3 & 4). Game 2 I think I countered their Vial, anyways they use REBs to defend a Fetch and counter a Teferi, but Scroll comes down and Dreadnoughts overrun. Game 3 they don't have Vial and run into 3 Plows early, this is enough time to get Teferi and Karn online. A Dreadnought got a hit in before they kill it, and I follow up with Factory aggro and a Karn wish for Cursed Scroll is too much pressure on their life total to beat from behind.

    R2 vs StryfoPile (1-1): Game 1 they're on the play and get a Wrenn on turn 2, and it takes them like 30 minutes to kill me as I was able to check Wrenn with Factory/Standstill and some Karn wish Cursed Scroll. Game 2 opens with 5 turns of land-go and the game quickly develops into their Oko vs Mastery of the Unseen. They turn a JVP into an elk and try to Drown in the Loch him on a later turn, but Karakas says no. After this they will get a Dack and I manifest a Dreadnought, they spam like 3 cantrips and a Dack +1 (can't steal a face-down Nought) and last-ditch Oko +1 runs into Stifle. Opponent passes with an Oko with like 8 loyalty, a Dack with 4 loyalty and 17 life. They die to a 1-shot (Dreadnought + Factory x2 + pump from Factory #3). No time for game 3 and it's only a 3-rounder so I scoop him into the 2-0 bracket. This matchup seems fine between the mana denial, their softness to yard hate, and ability to take over the game with the mix of Azcanta, Standstill, Karn, Ashiok, Teferi/Factory and Mastery. Their deck runs into issues as it taps out into a strategy that has little problem assassinating PWs; just keep Snapcaster in check and you'll be fine. Playing against 4c stuff is just tedious, but [at first glance] their mutually-assured-destruction losing 2-3x slots to Oko isn't helping out too much vs our strategy (cost them at least 1x SCM and 1x Kcomm, and this doesn't do them many favors against Karn). The printing of Oko though does really put UW Dreadstill way ahead of UW Standstill, which can't really afford to change construction vs Wrenn (Snare main, Hydro SB) and also deal with Oko.

    R3 vs Lumberjack (1-2): Game 1 they do the Lumberjack into Titania thing and get 2x 5/3s in response to Plow Titania; I take a hit for 11 and then Verdict them. They never recover and Dreadnought kills them. Game 2 I think this was quite winnable but I got impatient with a Wasteland on their 1x Maze. Game 3 I get stuck on no white mana a turn too long and can't recover.

    Lost all 3 die rolls again today, but 1-1-1 record is fine. Twice today opponents fired off Wasteland into Azcanta and weren't punished by finding a Stifle [had the 5th mana], which was kinda funny. JVP did better today and even took over a game, but was still often being sided. For the UR players, keep track of Oko in your meta; the more you see of him, the less you should see of Hydro which maybe makes Chandra ToD a reasonable SB option again.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Played UR Dreadstill today with 4 scroll of faith.

    Went 4-1 in the Swiss, beating UB Omnitell, TES, Canadian Threshold and Mono Red Stompy and losing against an UR build. In the top4 I lost against the same Canadian Thres player where I won against in the Swiss.

    Deck went great, but the losses where mostly because in those games I had to close it with a Nought, but couldn't find any and couldn't protect my delvers long enough. Fun to play, will definitely play it again.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    /snip tourney report
    Nice work, sounds like they were hard games.

    @ UR: Do you feel that Lavaman is just the safer option to run MB as a 2x in UR builds over Chandra TOD? I like the idea of being able to build resources into bigger and bigger threats over time but that could just be the UW player in me; planning on trying out my UR list this Tuesday since I couldn't play last week.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Played UR Dreadstill today with 4 scroll of faith.

    Went 4-1 in the Swiss, beating UB Omnitell, TES, Canadian Threshold and Mono Red Stompy and losing against an UR build. In the top4 I lost against the same Canadian Thres player where I won against in the Swiss.

    Deck went great, but the losses where mostly because in those games I had to close it with a Nought, but couldn't find any and couldn't protect my delvers long enough. Fun to play, will definitely play it again.
    Great work! Love seeing the number of people picking up the archetype and trying it out.
    Dreadstill

    "Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Played UR Dreadstill today with 4 scroll of faith.

    Went 4-1 in the Swiss, beating UB Omnitell, TES, Canadian Threshold and Mono Red Stompy and losing against an UR build. In the top4 I lost against the same Canadian Thres player where I won against in the Swiss.

    Deck went great, but the losses where mostly because in those games I had to close it with a Nought, but couldn't find any and couldn't protect my delvers long enough. Fun to play, will definitely play it again.
    Were u on a list close to mine? Threshold is kinda a tricky matchup...it's definitely not a slam dunk
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @crispymelee I‘d defer to Rood on what‘s best at this time in UR. I personally prefer to run Lavamancer, but I can see why you wouldn‘t if your meta has Plague Engineer overuse (Delver/Snap/Grim all human wizard). Chandra is a card that isn‘t really a maindeck option as you‘d be too slow with Scrolls (she comes in when Dreadnoughts are worse). If you‘re looking at a maindeck walker in UR, I would think it would have to be Karn taking slots from Scroll due to its maindeck applications against LED, Astro, Vial, and Chalice.



    A quick guide for how to assess WrennOko:
    -as a loose rule there are 4 linear Gears/speeds at which they can be played. Gear 1 = RUG Delver (6x 1-drop threat, Stifle probable). Gear 2 = Grixis Delver/NBC RUG (think Dreadhorde). Gear 3 = 4c Snow WrennOko (Snapcasters). Gear 4 = Stryfo Pile (P. Fire).
    -Wrenn/Oko numbers will loosely be 5, 6, 7, or 8. These numbers correlate to the Gear (i.e. Gear 1 runs 5, Gear 4 runs 8). At Gears 3 and 4 some of those 7-8 slots will be JTMS (Gear 3), or JTMS/Dack (Gear 4).

    Once you have identified the Gear, you should know everything their deck will have around Wrenn/Oko. For example Gear 1 being the fastest is the only one which will have Stifle/Wasteland/Daze. Gear 2 will have Dreadhorde and no Stifle; discard x4 and at least 1x Plague Engi [if Grixis]. Gear 3 will have Wasteland [2x], Astro, Snap, roughly 1x Kcomm + 2x Decay (though it should be 1x Decay, 2x Trophy given how bad their Depths matchup is), 2x Plague Engi. If Gear 4 expect Dack, 1x Decay, 2x Trophy, no Wasteland, and basically the same stuff as Gear 3 [minus Astro]. Expect 1-2x Drown in the Loch from Gears 3 and 4.

    Having reduced the opponent‘s strategy to the correct Gear, you also know they‘re basically powerless to play any cards that are off-Gear (because netdecking) - correctly assessing their Gear allows you to mostly remove player skill* from their equation. All you really need to know at that point is they have the generically good [Gear-appropriate] cards which are going to be played conventionally [aka predictably]. No matter the gear, their main objective is to win off the back of a 1-card combo of Wrenn or Oko, punctuated by the occasional Goyf.

    *if you know what they can draw, how they have to play their cards, and identify the linear speed their deck is trying to operate at, then everything they do becomes a forced move + luck of the topdeck. The opportunity for them to augment raw power win % with win % from skill (beyond the point of not punting) is fairly low. This is not commentary such a pilot‘s skill level, rather that past a set point [competent] it doesn‘t count for much.

    Knowing the ‘rule of Gears‘ won‘t change that you still have to brew/play in such a way that doesn‘t “die to Goyf,“ nor does it address the baseline power level of Wrenn/Oko; but understanding it will help make the best tempo-varying, multi-turn lines more obvious. With access to manlands and Scroll, we‘re much better set up to exploit opponents who are tapping out more often for cards we have the tools to 1-shot (assuming you can‘t ignore them and 1-shot the player).

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Not sure if anyone is interested, but this is where I landed for testing Death's Shadow with Dreadnought. Confidant replaces Standstill, Shadow replaces Delver. Brazen Borrower is there currently to fight the Chalice decks but I could see Scroll of Fate finding its way in here and Borrower to the board.


    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4x Death’s Shadow
    3x Dark Confidant
    2x Brazen Borrower
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Stifle
    2x Spell PIerce
    4x Force of Will
    1x Force of Negation
    2x Dismember
    2x Fatal Push
    4x Thoughtseize
    1x Torpor Orb
    1x Spell Snare

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Flooded Strand
    1x Marsh Flats
    3x Watery Grave
    2x Island
    1x Swamp
    4x Wasteland

    Sideboard

    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Grafdigger’s Cage
    2x Bitterblossom
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Diabolic Edict
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Darkblast
    1x Massacre


    EDIT: added sideboard.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Bobs tough if you're meta is full of W6. I think Shadows a fine deck any reason you cut Delver? Not a huge fan of delver-less tempo in that kinda shell.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Bobs tough if you're meta is full of W6. I think Shadows a fine deck any reason you cut Delver? Not a huge fan of delver-less tempo in that kinda shell.
    I would no longer call it a tempo deck (notice I also cut Dazes...) At this point, it's more of a combo/tempo deck. It can play a tempo plan but it's also very focused on getting a big threat that can close out games in a couple turns. It's basically dreadstill but Bob = Standstill and Shadow = Delver. I have also changed the deck slightly since this post, getting the land count up to 20 and incorporating more combo-esque elements.

    Thread link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...8-Death-Nought

    I think the concept of 'Bob dies to W6' is way overblown, honestly. Bob dies to every removal in the format except Snuff Out. Bob has always died to every removal in the format. Does that make it a bad card? I don't think so. W6 kill Bobs but nothing else in the deck (I'm not counting Borrower because I can play around it at instant speed.) I'm also playing a deck with 5 maindeck forces alongside 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Spell Pierce, with the added bonus of not having to tap out for Delver t1. I can handle that t2 W6 in multiple ways. Aside from that, what does that deck threaten me with? It can't handle a resolved Shadow or Dreadnought without a TNN, and Dreadnought even tramples over that little fucker too. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I think the sentiment of Bob being unplayable is hyperbole.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    3:1 last night at the local weekly with UB Stiflenought:

    current list:

    4 Delver
    4 PhD
    1 JVP
    1 Brazen Bouncer
    4 Scroll of Fate

    20 Tempo, Stifles
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Pierce
    1 Vision Charm
    1 Drown in the Loch
    1 Ghost Quarter

    4 WL
    4 Delta
    3 Strand
    1 Vista
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Swamp
    4 Islands

    1 Narset
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Inquisition of K
    1 Misdirection
    1 Mystical Dispute
    1 Snare
    1 E. E.
    1 E Truth
    1 Tyrant's Scorn
    2 Fatal Push
    1 Mind Harness
    1 Surgical
    1 Extirpate
    1 Cage



    The deck's been feeling decent over the past weeks, been hovering around 50:50 with several of the losses coming down identifiable punts and misplays on my part (In October I went 1-1-2, 2-1-1 and 1-2-1. Over this period I beat Bomberman, 4C Loam, BANT Miracles, Mono B Reanimator, plus 4C Delver in a bonus match; lost to 4C Control, Turbo Depths, Mono Red Stompy, and NBC RUG; with draws vs. 4C Delver, Grixis Midrange / Worldgorger, Stax, and ANT). Consistently interesting and tight matches, I feel especially confident about combo and, to a lesser degree, Delver MUs. Chalice also doesn't scare me anymore since Scroll of Fate.

    On to last night (bear with me, I've never tried writing one of these before):

    R1: 2:1 (LWW) on the draw vs. Sneak & Show (on Dazes & full Artisan SB plan)
    Some justice in this match, as I lose G1 to a lucky topdeck but then don't get punished for a misplay G3.
    G1 He keeps 7, goes T1 cantrip (no shuffle), then winces when I Thoughtseize him, casts Daze, I Daze back, take his S&T leaving his Grisel stranded. Next turn I Ponder into set-to-flip Delver, tapping out with Pierce in hand, and he gets me with S&T on the next turn.
    G2 He mulls to 6, I think. I have double Delver with some permission. He Pyroblasts Delver #1, but the second one sticks and gets there eventually. Early Thoughtseize again and I Drown in the Loch an Artisan at some point (great card in the MU).
    G3 I have Delver, double TS and Extirpate, and here's the punt: T2 I discard his Emrakul and blink, realizing too late that I could Surgical her away with the graveyard trigger on the stack. He eventually resolves SA under Delver beats, while I stare at my Extirpate and his 1, then 2, then 3 Ponders in the graveyard. When I finally cast it just for hand info, I see Grisel, then punt again by attacking Delver into it, but he whiffs again on the draw 7 (!) and can't close it out before I kill him with Scroll Morphs or Brazen Bouncer (I forget which).

    R2: 2:1 (LWW) on the play vs. Jund Phoenix (KyFly list)
    G1 He Bolts my Delver, then grinds me out and even has the Abrade for my Hail-Mary Dreadnought at the end.
    G2 Mana denial & discard + Delver, GG
    G3 Both on a mull to 6. This one was fun. I keep 2 WL, Cage, FoW, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, and end up getting rewarded. He quickly gets 2 Mountains into play and proceeds to cast 3 Pyromancers in a row. I draw a land in time, cantrip into Stiflenought and then Echoing Truth to ensure the kill in 2 DN hits (he was going to Bolt my DN, block it dead and survive on 1 life.).

    R3: 2:1 (LWW) on the draw vs. Elves (Once Upon a Time, otherwise pretty old school)
    G1 I Force a T2 Glimpse (would've been the absolute nuts for him), but he gets me with quick beatdowns.
    G2: I board in all my removal, Inquisition, Torpor Orb, Cage and Surgical (the latter probably incorrect). Mull to 6 with Push, 2x discard, a land, Ponder and Daze or Stifle. T1 Inquisition (I take GSZ, he has Wirewood, BLR, Quirion, Pendelhaven & 2 Cradles and take the GSZ); T2 I Push his dude and TS another, soon Ponder or draw into Stiflenought. GG, although he's assembled a pretty formidable Army at this point already.
    G3: He mulls to 6 (tells me later that he bottomed his Decay for fear of discard) I boarded our all discard on the draw, together with the remaining 2 Dazes for Misdirection and bring back all FoWs. T2 Force-protected Dreadnought. He crowds the board fast enough for me to need an extra hit; I keep digging in vain for Misdirection or Vision Charm, but don't need it)

    R4: 0:2 on the draw vs. GW(b) Dark Maverick (now that's a scary deck)
    I mull to barely keepable 6s both games and never really stand a chance.
    G1 he goes Thalia into SFM, then another Thalia another SFM, and Reclaimer and I hold out pretty well (JVP & Drown in the Loch), but it's an uphill battle that never feels winnable.
    G2 I at least have a Delver, then a second one, but Jitte on Dryad Arbor, then more creatures overwhelm me. I had horrible hands and draws, but this MU does not feel good at all. I'm not sure they run StPs in the main, so I guess I'm supposed to mulligan aggressively into a quick Dreadnought.


    Super happy doing so well on the draw, especially postboard. I finally went with the full playset of Scrolls last night and tried out Ghostly Quarter, but it wasn't the night for those (faced only 1 blue deck out of 4, where hardcast DNs are a liability and never drew the GQ when it would've been relevant, e.g. taking S&S off of red with SA in play). So jury's still out on the flex slots: Scroll#4, JVP, and GQ.

    I have more thoughts on individual card choices, but am going to leave it at this for now.

    PS: Play Mind Harness!
    Last edited by Tobitzki; 11-06-2019 at 06:07 PM.

  15. #4255
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Nice work, I used to put Mind Harness in my UB boards; that card is pretty fun. On the list, GQ without ability to recur is maybe a bit ambitious, but it's still a mana source. In terms of the SB I don't love Echoing, Dispute, nor Tyrant's Scorn. I'm thinking a second copy of Brazen should probably be there. I prefer Ashiok to Narset in a SB, but looking at Narset in those matchups I think I'd have brought her in vs the first three definitely, and possibly the fourth. Limiting Grisel, ignoring Glimpse/Visionary, cracking down on Looting, and stopping Library all sound good on a card that is advancing your gameplan.

    Versus Arcane Artisan be sure to read the last part of that text box. SnT players are notoriously loose with when they activate without provocation. Even if they don't punt, it can often be correct to let them have it and lose another three mana activating before going to remove (or let them untap with it and then kill spell on their second main). The one timing you want to stay away from is activation during your end step.

  16. #4256
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    PS: Play Mind Harness!
    Don't get me wrong, I love me some Mind Harness, used to run one in a Zur EDH deck to screw Uril players back in the day.

    In this case though, what exactly are we aiming it at? 'Goyfs?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I like Narset out of the board to dig for specific SB one-ofs or a missing combo piece (I often board out a Scroll or 2) and it's rare CA in this deck. Hasn't made an impact one way or other last night though, though I did board her in a few times, especially otd.

    I've been considering the 2nd Brazen, but E Truth is just better vs Storm. I'll stick with the GQ for now--it's strong vs the 3 Tier1 decks (RUG, ANT, DD) and it allows me to run 3-4 Scrolls w/o mana worries.

    I was running T Scorn MD before Drown was printed: I think it's great, but I could see putting Plague Engineer in that slot--I've just refused to get one so far because it's such an unbelievably dumb, abominable card.

    Other contenders for the 3 above-mentioned flex slots are: Vantress Gargoyle, Tasigur, Gurmag, JVP#2, Brazen#2 (perhaps even Stratus Dancer or Fathom Seer); and Preordain, Portent, Academy Ruins.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    what exactly are we aiming it at? 'Goyfs?
    Great question. Goyfs and Hexdrinkers and Monkeys, KotRs (and Reclaimers and Ravunap Excavators), Hogaaks (and Vengevine), Arcanists (and Swiftspears), Rabblemasters & any other Goblin or Elf, a Scavenging Ooze. Hell, how about a Leo? Mostly started running it for Goyf and the recent upswing of Knight of the Reliquary, tho.

    EDIT: Counting Dark Depths, that's almost 40% of the meta as per mtgtop8, and that's not counting Burn, Elves, Aluren, and a bunch of other 1%-and-under decks.

  19. #4259
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    I like Narset out of the board to dig for specific SB one-ofs or a missing combo piece (I often board out a Scroll or 2) and it's rare CA in this deck. Hasn't made an impact one way or other last night though, though I did board her in a few times, especially otd.

    I've been considering the 2nd Brazen, but E Truth is just better vs Storm. I'll stick with the GQ for now--it's strong vs the 3 Tier1 decks (RUG, ANT, DD) and it allows me to run 3-4 Scrolls w/o mana worries.

    I was running T Scorn MD before Drown was printed: I think it's great, but I could see putting Plague Engineer in that slot--I've just refused to get one so far because it's such an unbelievably dumb, abominable card.

    Other contenders for the 3 above-mentioned flex slots are: Vantress Gargoyle, Tasigur, Gurmag, JVP#2, Brazen#2 (perhaps even Stratus Dancer or Fathom Seer); and Preordain, Portent, Academy Ruins.
    I don't think storm is a good reason to use Etruth; you have maindeck stifle, force, and thoughtseize. I think your storm matchup is fine. I like Ratchet Bomb or Engineered Explosives in that slot.
    Brainstorm Realist

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Rough night out for the Dreadnought team. Went 0-3 before dropping, with 0 experience versus 2 of the 3 decks I played. Went into the rounds with an eye to test my UR list, so there was definitely not as much confidence in my list as I normally would have running UW. Sideboard was far from ideal. I didn't take the time to rearrange my list at home and made up a sideboard from scratch. The current iteration of my list has what I had planned to take as the "Maybeboard".

    Round 1 vs UG Fish (L, 0-2)
    Whole match was a blowout. G1 was a quick loss due to a resolved Vial, with him on the play. Despite a T2 Dreadnought making it down, he was able to drop Lord -> Lord -> Lord and just outraced me. Opponent was being super technical about how I worded my timings, so when I claimed "Bolt on this Lord, with the other Lord on the Stack" when he Vialed it in, he claimed that "The Lord's not on the stack because I Vialed it in. You didn't respond to the Vial trigger being on the stack so the Lord you're targeting is too big to die to Bolt". All of which is technically true, but whatever. If it were a monthly, I'd probably call for a Judge. I was more concerned with building experience and it's just a reminder that some players will look for the smallest vagueries to gain an advantage.

    - 2 Standstill, -1 Vision Charm ; +2 EE, +1 Pithing Needle (for Vial). Standstills vs Vials are the classic no-no, particularly versus Fish. At least that's what old knowledge told me. I knew EE @ 2 was particularly harsh on Fish and was hoping that was still the case.

    G2 started brightly. On the play, I kept a hand with Standstill, Dreadnought, Stifle, Factory, Volc. Island, and 2 Daze. After a land go, I'm able to Daze his attempt to cast Vial. Replay the Volc, pass again. He passes back, and I go for Standstill. It resolves, but on his next turn a Wasteland eats my Island (didn't see Waste at all G1). He breaks Standstill, which gives me nothing relevant and more importantly, no lands. I'm on single digit life by the time I find a second land and it's over. Saw no boarded cards.

    Round 2 vs UG Infect (L, 1-2)
    A much more "relaxed" match in the sense that we weren't trying to rules lawyer each other into oblivion. G1 is hilarious as he gets the nuts, and is able to kill me T2 with 11 Infect damage off an innocent looking 1/1 that suddenly became The Incredible Hulk.

    - 1 Standstill, -1 Vision Charm; +2 Engineered Explosives. Having only the faintest idea that his game plan was probably cheap dudes + manlands (Saw Inkmoth Nexus) into pumps, I boarded in EE with the idea of setting them around 0, 1, and 2.

    G2, I'm on the play and have the advantage that he basically saw nothing from my list. It's a bit nervy at first as he lets a Delver resolve and I let a 1 drop Infector resolve. Delver flips naturally on T3 (I forget the trigger on T2), and after a few poison counters, my Factory trades with his Infector and we're both screwed out of necessary lands to do more than draw-go while my Delver gets in. I get the land I need first, a second Island, and immediately go for the hardcast Nought. He has a chuckle as he did NOT expect that, and I'm able to run him over.

    G3, another tight game. Factory and 1/1 Delver beats are too slow to race him. Fortune was not on my side, as no Bolts showed up to take out his Inkmoth Nexus and when they did finally show up off a broken Standstill, I didn't have the R available to cast it, having tapped my one R source (Volc. Island) to cast that same Standstill the turn before.

    Round 3 vs High Tide (L, 0-2)
    Not sure what to say about this one. He played solitaire for both G1 and G2. REB's x3 and Narset would have been nice but I didn't have them sleeved up due to poor preparation. Spell Pierces and Tormods came in, Daze's went out. Wasn't sure if it was better to use permission on his hand shaping tools (Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm), or his engine/finishers (High Tide, [draw x cards card], etc.). The one opportunity I had to counter Candelabra, he had his own FoW waiting. G2 I got a little bit of traction, by going after his hand shaping spells, but I couldn't kill him in the few turns that bought. Narset (everything) and Ashiok (merchant scroll) would have been lovely, but didn't see Ashiok, and no Narset.

    Was pretty turned off by him literally playing a game on his phone and turning around to talk with his buddies during the few turns I had. More or less the equivalent of having a sidebar during a tourney match in SSBM or SFV, at least in my mind. It's whatever.


    Impressions:
    + Overall, still had a good time. Don't feel like I had anywhere near enough of games or experience to really make a statement on UR, other than the list is still a blast to play.
    + Creatures: besides Dreadnought and Factories, I really don't have much experience running creatures. It's fun.
    - Rules lawyers: I get it. I consider myself one in areas that I understand (Humility). Just not impressed by people who try to play around the intent of what you're doing.
    - Found myself thinking up answers to situation on the board as if I were running UW. Need to develop flexibility.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    /snip tournament report
    Awesome job man. Nice write-up too. Good to see people exploring other possibilities within this archetype, and glad someone had a good night to counteract my rough one. Everything in balance :)
    Dreadstill

    "Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

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