The problem I have with Daze against Ichorid, even on the play, is that giving up the land drop is as bad as most of the things you'd try to counter.
When Ichorid sees an Island in front of them on the draw and know that you have Daze in the deck they generally slow play to turn 2, often to the point of just drawing a card and discarding what they want into the GY. Dazes can have an impact but only if they are very sloppy about setting up. An Ichorid player who plays Putrid Imp into an Island on turn 1 deserves to get caught with 6 cards in hand and no discard outlet. It's just much sounder for them to either drop a land and pass, playing Putrid Imp and rolling on turn 2, or discard the card they want into the graveyard and waiting to drop a land until turn 2.
Really I think it's hard to go wrong though once you have sided for Ichorid, it's just a very favorable matchup at that point and Daze or no you're probably going to have a good chance to win. The graveyard hate is just so good at this point that it's hard to win through it.
I see what you're aiming at. The blue count gets really low at that point though. Blue in with that boarding: 4x FoW, 4x Brainstorm, 4x Stifle, 1x Trickbind, 2x Trinket Mage = 15. That's kind of rockbottom low. I'd probably pull the Firespouts at that point for some of the blue back.
What I really want to do after boarding against Ichorid is to attack their plan with all the permanents I can. The weakness of Ichorid is the dependence on discard outlets, the tendency to over-commit into sweepers (no way around that given the engine) and then the exposure that playing with an open hand creates - with a massive mind twist always just around the corner.
I assume when I'm playing them that if they got an absolute nuts draw I'm probably dead. There's a small chance to stop that but it's just a small chance. Most of the time they're planning to go off turn 3 and by then it's pretty easy to have a board position that mostly prevents that.
When I relied on Daze and FoW and especially Counterbalance I found myself losing that race to turn 3 often. Daze puts you behind a land so the sweepers go off a turn later than you can afford, FoW costs you card advantage and is only worth it if you're going to die if you can't counter right now, and Counterbalance is just slow to setup and then it hardly counters anything they want to do.
So what I try to do is get set up to sweep with either EE or Firespout reliably, cut off a discard outlet with Pithing Needle if I can and plan to FoW on LED if it happens very early or on Dread Return in the midgame.
So far it seems to work pretty well. I know you've played a lot more against dredge than I have so you probably have insights into the matchup that I don't see. I've been matched up against Ichorid maybe 5 times overall in tourneys at this point and I'm 2-1 with Dreadstill and 1-1 with that Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon deck.
It's really simple-- make these changes game 2-3, and the match swings in your favor:
-4 Counterbalance
-3 Top
-3 Standstill
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout
+3 Crypt/Relic
+3 Lighning Bolt
+3 REB/blast
The last 3 might be Sower/Submerge/Needle/whatever, but your board should have those 12 spells. Granted some people play burn maindeck and that's fine, but if you don't play all of those cards in total, I really think you've got it wrong.
I wouldn't worry too much about blue count. 15 is not ideal, but it's still playable. You only need to counter their draw and Dread Returns. REB helps with the draw, and DR doesn't happen until about turn 4.
Also, congrats on 100 pages everyone ;D
I mostly agree with your point of view, my side plan against Dredge is almost the same. However, I wouldn't board out TOP's to board in Bolts. Lightning Bolt in my opinion isn't that great against Dredge, and TOP can help you 'mill' your deck to resolve Nought ASAP. Anyway, I'll do some intensive testing WITH Bolts before Madrid. Maybe you are right. At the moment I believe that you can compare Bolt to...CB in this matchup. It is possible it could help you a bit, but other cards are superior to it.It's really simple-- make these changes game 2-3, and the match swings in your favor:
-4 Counterbalance
-3 Top
-3 Standstill
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout
+3 Crypt/Relic
+3 Lighning Bolt
+3 REB/blast
The last 3 might be Sower/Submerge/Needle/whatever, but your board should have those 12 spells. Granted some people play burn maindeck and that's fine, but if you don't play all of those cards in total, I really think you've got it wrong.
I wouldn't worry too much about blue count. 15 is not ideal, but it's still playable. You only need to counter their draw and Dread Returns. REB helps with the draw, and DR doesn't happen until about turn 4.
I'm very happy that after some quiet months discussion on Dreadstill is on again. While Ugr mainboard seems to be completed at the moment, for example Dredge matchup discussion shows that there is still a lot to be said about different Dreadstill matchupsAlso, congrats on 100 pages everyone ;D
What decks does Lightning Bolt improve the matchup enough that it is worth siding out something that is effective to put it in?
I see Zoo and Merfolk as the obvious cases. Against Zoo I already want to put in 3x Firespout and 2x Pithing Needle (Qasali Pridemage.) For those I take out 3x Standstill and then squeeze a couple of other choices depending on which variant of Zoo I'm looking at. There are really no obvious cards other than Standstill to come out in the Zoo matchup. Pulling a Dreadnought is doable but the choices get tough after that, especially if I'm on the play game 2.
Against Merfolk I already want to put in 3x Firespout and 4x REB/Pyroblast for which I take out 3x Standstill, 3x Daze and 1x Counterbalance, It's really hard to find 3 or 4 more slots for bolts and that's one of the reasons I pulled them out of the sideboard. I leave 2x Counterbalance in because you can lock out Merfolk in the midgame after you have countered Vial or EE'd it, it's too strong a stabilizer to abandon it completely even though Merfolk has good answers for it.
I know Rodney and Tom have tried pulling FoW in the matchup and I guess that's an option, since it frees you from blue count issues. Aether Vial is so disruptive that I'm kind of leery of doing that.
I pulled the 4x Lightning Bolt in the sideboard because it gave me +1 GY hate, +2 Pithing Needle (I had dropped these but they are too good not have in a deck with Trinket Mages) and +1 REB. I keep going back and forth on whether it's good to have a solid general card in the sideboard of a solid general deck or whether it's better to reinforce the spikiness in a bunch of matchups that are otherwise 50/50 after boarding.
I only play 3 in the SB, but Lightning Bolt is good against all kinds of aggro-- like Eva Green, Goblins and some rogue decks, not just Zoo/Merfolk. Here are my SB plans for those:
Zoo
+3 Lightning Bolt
+3 Firespout
-3 Standstill
-2 Daze
-1 Dreadnought
Merfolk
+3 Lightning Bolt
+3 Firespout
+3 REB
-3 Standstill
-2 Daze
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dreadnought
-1 Trickbind
Hello, I've been reading these forums for god knows how long, but this is the first time I'm actually posting anything. I've been toying and playing with UGR Dreadstill for 4 months, and I can easily say that it's my favorite deck of all the possibilities available in Legacy.
There is a tiny problem with this statement.. :>Originally Posted by KubaM
The build I'm using at the moment:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
I've been trying to fit 4th Counterbalance and 3rd Sensei's Divining Top to the deck from time to time, but I don't really want to remove anything else than 1 Daze from the current build. I know that Pippo84 plays with 61 cards to get around this "problem", but that's not an option for me.
Just how important is the 4/3 CB/Top split compared to 3/2 split in contrast to going down to 2 Daze from 4 or 3? What would you do to get 4/3 CB/Top while maintaining 60 cards MD?
Thanks for keeping this thread alive!
-kortero
Well, depends on playstyle but I think daze it's important to get a turn2 cb or nought. Also, I'm not sold on spell snare, playing your exact list but replacing spell snares for two fire//ice's and a top. Spell snare becomes useless when you have cb online, that's why I obvied em
@Kortero- every one's MD probably varies a little bit. I have 3 Trinket Mages and 3 Sowers in mine, for example.
At any rate, I would say its a meta call. For example, if you play against alot of Ancient Tomb, Aggro and Combo decks in your meta, Daze is awesome. However, if it more aggro-control and control orientated, I would run more Counterbalance/Top.
Where I'd really like Spell Snare is in the sideboard but there's just no room for it at all. There are so many matchups where Spell Snare is just an amazing counter and then there are matchups where it is blah. I'd really like to maindeck Daze and have Spell Snare as an option on the draw so I had a simple way to replace Daze when it is clearly a poor option.
This is pretty much what I thought, but I just had to ask.
I remember an old saying associated with computers a long time ago - "Don't fix it if it isn't broken".
Maybe I need to take this advice and continue with the current configuration as I've been really pleased with the deck overall.
-kortero
@Kortero - Your build is actually pretty typical, except most people only play 2 Daze and go up to 4 CB/3 Top. Daze is helpful at landing your T2 plays but (a) it's dead later in the game and (B) it's possible for an opponent to play around it. I've found 2 to be a good number because you still get the benefit of (b) while also not topdecking it so often.
@johanessen - I generally agree with you about the overlap of Spell Snare and CB, but it's just too good to pass up. There are so many significant targets that a little redundancy is acceptable. Fire//Ice always felt a little slow to me when I tried it maindeck, so I switched to Bolts, but then I was missing the extra counters. I eventually put the Bolts back in the board and I've been satisfied with just Snares. They're almost as good as Bolt versus Zoo/Merfolk since they hit Pridemage/Goyf/PoP as well as Standstill/LoA, but they also help a lot more in other matchups like combo, for example (which, to be fair, is already a good matchup, but having those extra counters for tutors is really helpful because you can't expect to draw FoW or CB every game).
keys: Yeah, I've seen plenty of lists with 4/3 CB/Top and 2 Daze. Somehow I feel like the optimal amount of Daze would be three so at the moment I'm testing with 4/3 CB/Top, 3 Daze and 2 Spell Snare. If I decide to keep 4/3 CB/Top instead of 3/2 split it's either 2 Daze and 3 Snare or the other way around. Well, it's close anyhow, and I must just play more with different kinds of setups to get the right feeling about the optimal build.. for me.
-kortero
To start I must say I'm happy the thread is alive again! Good news!!
The discussion of the MU's is very interesting, we should evolve it because the main deck is ok atm and the core list everyone plays is the same except for a few personal changes.
Since I also play Dredge I must say my opinion. After sideboarding so many sweepers + bolts + gy hate the mu is quite easy.
If I would cut a spell to my list and go to 60 cards I would not cut a Daze and not even a Spell Snare (tried both) but I would go down to just 1 EE. From my style of play I like counters and found that it's very unlikely for me to use both EE in a game so probably 1 is enought.
And Congratz on 100 pages!
pippo84: Funny thing, I just bought a playset of AN City of Brasses, and therefore I had to buy the rest of the cards to the only deck that uses them, Dredge. I have no real experience on the deck yet, but I like the fact that it's completely different than anything else in constructed magic.
I've also thought about going down to 1 EE instead of Daze/Snare, but I don't want to rely on Trinket Mage to tutor for it. It has pretty much never been a dead card in my hand when I've drawn one of the 2 EE's.
-kortero
@kortero: If you have EE in your hand it's almost never a dead card, and since we play 2 you don't see them often in hand and have to look for them with Top, Brainstorm or tutor with Trinket Mage. It's really a strong card, but I rarely use both in a match and therefore it would be the card I would cut instead of counters.
Interesting fact that we both got Dredge recently!
Hi everyone, beside the UGR list i was running for #7 on a small local tournament listed on deckcheck.net i had some practice games with Mox Diamonds and they are awesome, i tried following list as i had no better idea:
4 Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
3 Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
1 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
2 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishras factory
1 academy ruins
Diamonds are amasing with explosives and give the Deck a bit more speed as we can drop everything faster than usual so i really often could win matches by dropping counterbalance or standstill faster than their threats, also its great for playing 2nd turn blood moon post board without any color problem and makes Firespouts as fast as Pyroclasms (some people know it matters when we're facing aggro). I am not sure if i wanna keep crucible/academy ruins for the mainboard but i really love them on matchups like countertop,ITF,Landstill or other control matchups,
by playing the diamonds their costs are not that bad at all so even academy ruins keeping EE beeing possible to set on 0-4 (depends on the moxes i have in play, even 5 would be possible) all over the time is awesome.
Hey guys! today I played in my weekly tournament and got owned
This week I took out the black and added red for firespouts REB and bolts in the SB. it was a really basic list nothing special to it just basically anybody elses list.
lots of post's lately! keep it up guys! Good luck!
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