[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[FoolofaTook]

How do people see the Loam matchups at this point? I keep looking at the Nikitin/Hausman matchup and thinking that was a very bad matchup for Dreadstill. The KotR are just as large as Dreadnoughts pretty quickly, Terravores are huge, the deck runs spot white removal a lot of the time and almost always has a 3cc removal option main deck like Maelstrom Pulse or sometimes Vindicate and also runs Engineered Explosives. That's an ugly situation.

What do we put sideboard for that type of match, or is it just a low percenter no matter what we do?

[Muradin]

Aggro loam is positive for us. Hausmann wouldn't have lost this matchup if Nikitin hadn't started with first turn Knight with double Mox Diamond followed up with more of them in the next few turns. You can basically manage to outcontrol Loam mot of the time or kill them with a fast Dreadnought. Concerning the sideboard you obviously bring in Relic of Progenitus and depending on their build Explosives, Bolts...

[Aekhold]

Hey folks, I'm testing UR Dreadstill (Marius' list from Madrid) intensively for some days now (also some online tournaments on MagicLeague and 3 local tournaments and there are some questions that came up for me, maybe some experienced players (Wasteland/roodmistah) could comment:

1. How about 1 Relic of Progenitus main? The MU vs. Dredge is quite difficult preboard and could be improved. Same is for Loam and 43.lands, reanimator also gets nerfed by this.

2. What about Iona? Do we have to accept the loss vs. it if we can't prevent it from entering play or get a Nought before it?

3. Can we establish a boarding-plan-list so everybody is abled to know which cards are for matchup XY?
(Cards to board out might be listed, but dependant on opponents configuration.)

4. What about the 2. Trickbind main? I think it's quite weak, as we win vs. Combo very safe. Laying down a early nought is pretty important for sure.
At all, what are changes that can be made to the maindeck, so it could match someone's playing style better? (example: +1 EE, +1 Relic or something?)

Greets,
Aekhold

[JamieW89]

I am new to this deck (and competitive magic in general), but it seems like a fun deck to play. The green splash seems quite popular but I'm not really a fan of Goyf (and I suppose my wallet prefers the Ur version as well).
Because of my small amount of experience I simply used the list posted on the previous page, which was piloted to a good finish in Madrid.
I added 1 trop to make an EE for 3 possible, is that worth it?
And I believe I switched the crucible in the SB for another moon, as I like the moons more.

For what it matters, I think the meta around here is a mix of Merfolk/Zoo/Bant/Rock/Landstill/ANT.

// Land: (21)
4#Island
3#Volcanic Island
1#Tropical Island
4#Scalding Tarn
2#Misty Rainforest
4#Mishra’s Factory
3#Wasteland

// Creatures: (7)
4#Phyrexian Dreadnought
3#Trinket Mage

// Draw, Filter & CA: (11)
4#Brainstorm
4#Standstill
3#Sensei’s Divining Top

// Counters: (14)
4#Force of Will
4#Daze
3#Counterbalance
3#Spell Snare

// Stifle-effects: (6)
4#Stifle
2#Trickbind

// Boom: (1)
1#Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard: (15)
3#Blood Moon
2#Relic of Progenitus
1#Tormod’s Crypt
1#Engineered Explosives
2#Firespout
3#Lightning Bolt
3#Red Elemental Blast

Basicly my questions:
How does the Ur version perform in comparison to the Ug one? (Which one is doing better lately?)
Is it worth making EE for 3 possible by adding a tropical island?
Is this SB good, and how do I board against the decks mentioned in the intro(Merfolk/Zoo/Bant/Rock/Landstill/ANT)?
Is CounterTop good with a 0/1/2 manacurve (Only 3 Trinket Mages for 3, and 4 FoW's for 5)? (I believe someone asked this on the previous page as well, but wasn't answered)

[FoolofaTook]

Going back several months it seems like the Ur version is the one that is doing better in larger tourneys (50+) based on the Top 8's. The Ugr version was the one that was stronger last summer.

Marius Hausman's Ur build that went undefeated in day 1 at Madrid: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32857

Fabian Moyschewitz Ur - 1st of 60 on 1/17/10: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31753

Sander Vlutters Ur - 2nd of 136 on 11/15/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31216

Damien Colomb Ugr - 8th of 72 on 11/29/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30457

Alejandro Goffi Ugr - 1st of 78 on 9/5/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29198

Luis de Leon Ugr - 3rd of 50 on 9/5/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29193

Liviano Buso Ugr - 6th of 63, no date given but the Summer Legacy 09 event: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28471

Luca Fasoli Ugw - 5th of 63, same as above: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28470

Muflons Ugr - 3rd of 63, there was some Dreadstill in the field that day: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28468

Lovino Luca Ugr - 7th of 76 on 7/5/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28050

Scott Blumenthal Ugr - 1st of 187 on 6/21/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27951

Rich Shay Ugr - 3rd of 187 on 6/21/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27953

Andrea Milillo Ugr - 1st of 116 on 6/21/09: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27935

So we have Ugr being what everybody was playing last summer and into the fall and then a resurgence of Ur recently with Ugr putting up no results.

[Wasteland]

Simply some answers:

1.) 1 crucible is better then the 3. blood moon, since there are many MU's where u need ur factories but u need too to screw ur opponent (mirror / Landstill with many basics / Rock), while against lands.dec both cards are great (crucible of course only together with c-balance)

2.) 1 tropical island is always a possibility, exspecially since it allows ur firespout to shut down flyers, but it's another nonbasic and i don't like it :-)

3.) As muradin said, loam is in general a positive MU since u have counterbalance (after boarding it even gets better due to the relics)

4.) I simply did not find place for the relic maindeck and would atm not channge a single card in the deck, since i won saturday the 26 people-tournament in Nürnberg AND yesterday the 23 people-tournament in Feldkirch with top4 playoffs.

5.) You have 4+3 Dreadnoughts, so you want to have 4+2 stifles. Beside that, trickbind has the important cc of 2, where u have not too much (only 13) in the whole deck and don't want to cut one of them.

6.) IF your opponent is able to bring a Iona to play, he deserves the win :-) Against Dredge u have forces and the option to put down a quick nought, which he can't handle and against Bant Survival (which is a really bad deck in my oppinion (no sensei's top, no c-balance, a lot of dead cards without survival) he can't bring her without survival (and even then u can stifle the retainer). Last for the reanimator-MU: It seams to be quite a great MU for Dreadstill and IF he is able to reanimate a creature, it does not matter whether it's a early sphinx, a Iona or a Blazing Archon...

Greetz,

Marius

[Clark Kant]

With the rise of aggro decks, drop off in control decks and the lack of removal for Dreadstill, Standstill looks like it could be a big liability.

Say your opponent leads with a Wild Nacatl or Kird Ape or Loam Lion or something. Even if you Daze or FoW it, they will just play one their next turn before you can play your Standstill.

Suddenly, all the Standstill you have in hand become dead cards.

That's why I'm more intrigued by the Dreadstalker approach. It plays 12 threats...

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Dreadnought

All of them are big enough to trump, all other aggro decks. And you play enough threats that a successful removal or countering of one of your threats doesn't really phase you. If you are absolutely certain that your opponent will be siding in Krosan Grips and all sorts of hate to attack your Dreadnought, you can even side the card out and instead just play more control transforming into Team America, while simultanously rendering all the artifact/enchantment hate they bring in moot.

Standstill only generates card advantage if you already have control of the board. If you don't have board control, then Standstill is card disadvantage (a dead card taking up valuable space in your hand). Decks like Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, aggro decks of all forms, make it extremely difficult for Dreadstill to have control of the board. And in all those matchups, Standstill hurts you way more often than it helps you imho.

The more common or potent aggro gets, the worse Standstill gets in an aggro control deck like Dreadstill. And aggro has been getting extremely powerful with each set printed over the past few years, with no signs of that trend reversing.

[majikal]

against Bant Survival (which is a really bad deck in my oppinion (no sensei's top, no c-balance, a lot of dead cards without survival)

I don't know what lists you've been looking at, but a lot of the current ones don't have any truly dead/Survival-dependent cards except for Squee. Even Iona can be hardcast if you can drag the game out that long, and Loyal Retainers can recur Kira, Great Glass-Spinner and Vendilion Clique if it needs to.

[Rood]

So what do you guys think now with the amount of Reanimator running around...should the GY hate count get uped back to 3 slots sb? I'm currently debating between a 1 relic/2 crypt split or just keep it at 2 in the board.

[FoolofaTook]

How does the deck respond to EoT Entomb Iona, drop 2nd land and Reanimate when we're on the play? That's a bit less than a 15% chance against Reanimator and it sounds like a beating. Generally I think we're ok if we get to turn 3, but it's really hairy for the first couple of turns in my opinion. The problem with Reanimator is they want just one card in the graveyard at a time and do not care what else is there. That makes Tormod's Crypt kind of iffy against them I think.

Extirpate is generally a bad card but I kind of wonder whether it might not fill a gap for us. It's instant, it's uncounterable except by CB and it gets rid of options for them.

[walkerdog]

How does the deck respond to EoT Entomb Iona, drop 2nd land and Reanimate when we're on the play? That's a bit less than a 15% chance against Reanimator and it sounds like a beating. Generally I think we're ok if we get to turn 3, but it's really hairy for the first couple of turns in my opinion. The problem with Reanimator is they want just one card in the graveyard at a time and do not care what else is there. That makes Tormod's Crypt kind of iffy against them I think.

Extirpate is generally a bad card but I kind of wonder whether it might not fill a gap for us. It's instant, it's uncounterable except by CB and it gets rid of options for them.

The only thing I can say about that is that it requires you to not have stifle or them not to have to fetch, or have no non-basics / you are missing wasteland, FoW advantage for them, etc. Not that it's inconceivable, but you have a chance in that situation.

1-2 other options: Change the Tropical Islands to Underground seas and play either MD or SB cards like Edict, or you can run an Aether Spellbomb in the SB at least, as a singleton for mage to fetch if you need or just lucksac into it if they stick the iona first. Black would also allow 1 exec capsule if necessary.

[AngryTroll]

White splash Dreadstill (for Swords) used to be quite good. A black splash for Diabolic Edict and Bob isn't unreasonable to consider.

On the downside, as discussed to death, Pridemage. You probably need to run Spell Snare to counter Lord of Atlantis and Pridemage. Unfortunately, it's very hard to fit Spell Snare and Edict into the same list; good luck fitting Bob and/or Goyf too.

Required Cards:
4 Brainstorm
3 Top
3 Standstill
3 Counterbalance

2 Trinket mage
3 Dreadnought

3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

17 Land

That leaves 13 slots for:
Top, CBalance, and Standstill #4, land 18 (probably all neccesary) (9 slots left)
Nought #4, Trinket Mage #3 (at least one or the other) (7 or 8 slots left)
A Crucible or two, Bobs, Edicts, Spell Snares, Goyfs, an EE/Pithing Needle/Relic

There aren't nearly enough slots to go around, especially if you need to include Spell Snares for Pridemage, Goyfs to not die to quick beats, and Edicts for Reanimator (especially if you want to run two colors of removal). At least Krosan Grips may not be as prevalent in sideboards anymore, with at least some people trading them out for graveyard hate.

[FoolofaTook]

So for the UR list, let's say that you change the mana base main deck by one land:

4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
6x fetchland (doesn't matter which as long as they fetch islands)
3x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Island

All the other main deck cards are just as the UR list - use Wasteland's list as an example.

Now the sideboard becomes a bit different, because we are emphasizing different hate due to the rise of Reanimator and NoPro and the requirement to maintain effective hate against Zoo and Merfolk. Our good ANT matchup main deck is a huge help here because we don't need to dedicate any specific cards to defeating ANT or storm combo.

2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Firespout
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict
4x graveyard hate
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Underground Sea

REB and Pyroblast are no-brainers, when you are defeated in Legacy these days the odds are a blue spell was involved in the process. Firespout is the creature sweeper of choice even when it just hits ground pounders. Engineered Explosives now sets at up to 3 in the deck and it's a card you want 2 of when it's good. Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict are for Iona, Progenitus, Goblin Lackey, Noble Hierarch, Wild Nacatl, Steppe Lynx, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf,Knight of the Reliquary, etc. Innocent Blood has good synergy with Mishra's Factory in the mid-game, although you'll have to work around Phyrexian Dreadnought with it. Diabolic Edict is the no-conflict answer that is Spell Snare-able and non-functional on the draw turn 1 against Goblin Lackey, Noble Hierarch and Wild Nacatl. The graveyard hate is going to be based on the meta. Leylines, Tormod's Crypts and Relics against Dredge; Extirpate, Leylines and Faerie Macabre if Reanimator or Loam is your target. 2x Crucible of Worlds because when it's good it's really good and against a few decks right now you can't wait too long to find one. The Underground Sea because if you're putting black in the deck you need to support it a bit. Will also come in handy now and then when you run into a deck where you really want Explosives @3 or land is at a real premium because the opponent is running some early mana disruption. J.V. mentioned putting an Underground Sea in the sideboard if I wanted black there and the more I looked at it the more sense it made.

[Zinch]

I don't think you need to splash black only for the reanimator or NO Progenitus. All you need to do is counter the reanimate/NO spell. I personaly play the Ur version and have 3 Spell Pierce in the sideboard

[TOGITwill]

Most people don't realize that in order to beat Reanimator you should probably be countering the Entomb above all else. They only have four copies of those, and its the only real way for them to cherry-pick a fatty into their 'yard. If you let that resolve however, you're now facing 8 possible reanimation spells. Also, resolving a Counterbalance is a fairly decent strategy I hear. I play Ugr Dreadstill, and with only 2 Trinket Mages (4 GY hate SB) I manage to roll Reanimator in just about every game I've played against it. Reanimator should NOT be an issue, guys. Stop doing it wrong.

[jamis]

I'm thinking of building this deck and am wondering if I should use 2 Trickbind or 2 Vision Charm in addition to the 4 Stifle. I see most lists using Trickbind, but Vision Charm costs less and can protect the Dreadnought.

[kabal]

Most people don't realize that in order to beat Reanimator you should probably be countering the Entomb above all else. They only have four copies of those,

Wait, don't they typically run 4 Mystical Tutor?

and its the only real way for them to cherry-pick a fatty into their 'yard.

I would not say it is the only real way. They have 3 - 4 Careful Study and sometimes 2 - 3 Thoughtseize.

[TOGITwill]

They do typically run a set of Mystical Tutor. And? If you counter the first Entomb and they try to go get another one, they're giving you more time to set up a position that would best allow you to win. (Read: Resolve a Counterbalance, Trinket Mage, or Crypt/Relic).

Careful Study and Thoughtseize aren't anywhere near the same threat as Entomb is. The chances of them discarding something relevant off of a Careful Study or Thoughtseize aren't as high as their relevant threat being stuck in the pile of forty-some-odd cards sitting in front of them. If Careful Study and Thoughtseize were enough of a threat to fuel Reanimator, than the deck would have seen more play before Entombs unbanning. Entomb is what drives the deck's consistency. Stop that and it becomes much easier.

[Wasteland]

Lol, you won't counter an entomb normally... Let him have his card-disadvantage and counter his reanimator, best with counterbalance.
For vision charm vs trickbind: trickbind is cc2 for balance AND is additional mana-denial, so no discussion for it...

[neckfire]

i guess i need to admit...i havent touched dreadstill since the tournament where i smashed 8 aggro decks before walking home in first place.
Iv actually switched to bant.
anyways im really glad to see dreadstill doing well.The reason i switched i was tired of being in the defensive so much vs zoo it was starting to get annoying seeing 2 3/3's on t2...standstill was constantly a dead card for me.
Now if this meta calms down some i will pick it up again *i got all the cards still sitting in a deck just waiting*
I do agree that wasteland while he played very well did very well in avoiding zoo all day.zoo is not unwinnable no but it sure as hell aint fun playing against it.