I'm removing this post. Sorry Rich.
Last edited by J.V.; 08-12-2010 at 02:09 AM.
Team Hammafist
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
As long as you're running black, try some Dark Confidants? You would have to drop the Firespouts, but then just go full on Perish. You realize you're running green for 1 card right? May as well cut the single Grip.
Possibility:
-1 Trinket Mage
-1 Nought
-1 Trickbind
-1 Standstill
-1 Trop
+1 U Sea
+4 Dark Confidant
In the SB replace Firespout and Grip with a 3rd Perish and spot removal like Bolt or Smother.
Here's some elaborated SB plans. Please correct them if I am wrong.
So, I did some testing vs. Zoo, and the games I won, I won one of three ways:
1) Forcing their one drop or stifling their fetch and then t2 Factory->Standstill, riding the CA to a win.
2) A quick dreadnought unanswered by path or Pridemage
3) the crazy LD hand when they don't have a 1-drop.
I find that counter-top is good, but I'm not sure what turn I should be aiming to set it up. Also Knight basically demands a Force or Dreadnought as my only MD answers.
Suggested board.
-4 Force of will
-2 Trickbind
-1 Dreadnought
-1 Daze
-1 Standstill
+3 Bolt
+2 Firespout
+2 Perish
+1 EE
+1 Crucible of Worlds.
Basically, I become "Ghetto landstill," and take out my card-disadvantage for removal. Not sure on Standstill as the final cut, but I never need early multiples.
Merfolk I have not done too much testing, but it seems like g1 you need a Nought early and then you can win. If you don't it's an uphill battle. Standstill is reasonable only if you have neutralized Vial. That said, my SB looks like:
-4 Standstill
-3 Counterbalace
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Lightning Bolt
+2 Firespout
+1 EE
+1 Crucible of Worldsgood
There's nothing really scary at 2cc, and if they vial, Standstill and CB are worthless. In this matchup, I use my superior card selection to find my SB cards, and they still lack a real answer to Nought. Crucible is for their mana denial
Goblins:
+3 Lightning Bolt
+2 Firespout
+1 EE
+1 Crucible of worlds
-3 Counterbalance
-4 Spell Snare
Here snare is only meh , and they have a good anti-CB curve but they don't have man-lands to punish Standstill, and can't ever win a counter war over Vial, so I keep in my CA engine and just burn down their guys, resolve stifle-naught, and deal with Stingscourger vial stifle or force.
Dredge:
-4 Standstill
-3 Counterbalance
+3 GY hate
+2 Firespout
+1 Bollt
+1 EE
This matchup is about stopping their engine and tempoing with Naught, which means I cut the slower stuff and keep stuff that wills top them slow-dredging me out. I considered pyroblast, but I'm not sure what do cut and it only really hits breakthough.
I have no good idea how to board vs. storm. Right now my plan is -2 trickbind -1 Naught +1 EE +2 Firespout for decks with ETW, and for combo decks without etw and with blue, -1 EE, -2 Spell Snare, +3 pyroblast. Seems like with snare, daze, force, stifle, and cbtop, the matchup is solid unless I get roshamboed by a swarm of 1/1s.
I have no idea what to do vs. opposing countertop of NO or Thoptop flavors, New Horizons, Lands, or those new decks in the t8. Any help with those??
As was mentioned a few pages back, wouldn't vision charm be much better then trickbind in this deck? Why would you play trickbind when vision charm has a lot more functions in the deck besides the obvious sneaking a nought into play? It can dodge removal for your nought and come as a nasty surprise for any merfolk player that thinks his creatures are unblockable against your islands.
Yes and no. Vision charm is great for phasing random crap out (phasing Jitte out, Folk not getting past you for a turn/screwing up their manabase for a turn, phasing in your Nought) and other tricks, but Trickbind can't be countered. When you play against this deck, you always wait for the Stifle so you can 2 for 1 the Dreadstill player. Trickbind punishes that, and allows you to guarantee a Dreadnought drop (pretty much).
I play 1 copy of Vision charm for I have 7 ways to cheat Nought, and it allows me to use my Stifles that much more freely on their Fetchlands and such. Dread-Stalker uses Vision charms for Mill and cheating, so you could probably go ahead and use Vision charm, but I'm thinking most are running it for the fact that it's a stifle that stops the action for the entire turn (ex. Removing Jitte counters for pump/lifegain).
-Matt
Sdematt: While that is true, I have never managed to actually benefit from trickbind's split second because everyone knows the deck plays them. Apart from that, I am really not that scared of my nought getting countered; it's removal that I'm worried about. I play a Ur list so nought is like a removal magnet and rarely manages to swing home. Solving this problem with a card that also cheats nought, as well as having a ton of other uses, seems like a better option then having a semi-uncounterable nought. I'll have to playtest it I guess.
Dear Tom,
If you request a decklist, and I send it to you, and give feedback for changing the list, that does not mean that I want to see that posted for everyone to see on The Source. I have to say that I am disappointed.
Rich
I advise against cutting all of your Force of Wills against Zoo. You really can't let Choke resolve, and sometimes stopping Pridemage or Price of Progress is necessary. I keep all four in, myself.
In that case I guess I would cut a Naught (you still have 2 real and 3 virtual ones), the two remaining Daze (really harsh tempo loss), and a spell snare (probably easier to have a blue card than a blue mana early, and later on you will get to 5 mana. Maybe also bring in a crucible so I can really crush their mana base?
Nine cards might be a few too many. I would be comfortable cutting 2 Dreadnoughts and Trickbinds, and I'm not overly keen on Daze in the matchup, especially on the draw. Crucible isn't going to be too exciting, as it is only good once the board has been essentially cleared.
Here's the list I played today in Culver City:
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Trinket Mage
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
4x Standstill
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Top
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Relic of Progenitus
SB:
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Firespout
3x Red ELemental Blast
2x Perish
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Blood Moon
I beat Lands 2-0 and Merfolk 2-0 but lost to three different Zoo decks, regardless of all the hate I bring in. People are really good at playing around Perish, I'd rather them have been Deathmarks -- two mana cheaper and can hit white things too. Another tough thing about the Zoo matchup is if you lose game one you're going to have to be fighting against Krosan Grips and Red Elemental Blasts for two games to take the match. Merfolk was really easy both pre and post sideboard.
In response to above, I believe that the doppelganger's ability will resolve first by prioritizing this before stutter will counter the spell. Both ability is triggered by enter to battle and you can prioritize doppelganger's ability before stutter's ability.
can anyone confirm this. thanks!
The list I ran in Culver City today:
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Trinket Mage
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
4x Standstill
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
SB:
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Firespout
3x Pyroblast
2x Perish
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
I beat zoo, jank knights, and Vengevival and lost to Goblins (seems really tough if you don't stick a Naught but quick) and Emrakul Sneak Attack (My fault, tapped for SDT at the wrong time. I noticed a few things:
1: Engineered Explosives was extremely solid all day. I am thinking of cutting a Spell Snare to get 2 Maindeck.
2: Academy ruins would have been very helpful for getting back Gripped Dreadnoughts and SDT, and I am pretty sure that I can sew up a lot of matchups with Ruins recursion. I might cut a waste for it.
3: I kind of want to run Tolaria west because it finds LD, creatures, and removal for 1UU, but it seems like it will own you a lot of the time. Anyone ever try it?
I used every card in the sideboard, and actually Trickbinded a Jitte activation for the win which was cool.
It seems to me like in the Goblins matchup you are, surprisingly, the Beatdown, and that if the game goes long it is they that will inevitable run you over. In retrospect, trying to be Landstill postboard was a bad choice, and I should have boarded out Standstill and CB for my removal package and tried to Naught them out.
I've been running a pretty standard deck list of dreadstill now for a while and I just recently played a local tournament with 40~ players involved and had I won my last game I would have made it to the top 8s. Rest assured, I am not a very merited player and dreadstill is my first proper legacy deck that I own and have grown really fond of!
Anyway, I've been pondering a few things and after speaking to some people on the above-mentioned tournament, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to not run standstill (maybe I am just crazy or more amateur than you and me thought?). I met this guy who had played dreadstill himself and it had come to him as a sort of revelation-like experience that standstill isnt actually that good of a card in this deck. I've often found myself thinking that standstill is a liability versus many other decks (I sideboard them out frequently) and, if I'm not wrong, it doesn't really help against decks that we already have troubles with. And above all, I do think it would be a relief not having to run Mishra's (making my decklist eligable for a fourth wasteland!)
I'm running a bit short on time here, I was thinking of adding black and running confidants instead, we all know how good confidants are together with the top?!
Any thoughts on my thoughts?
I have been thining the exact same thing! I replaced Standstill with Predict in the maindeck a while ago, and they have been great for me. Sure, sometimes you would prefer having a Standstill, but against most of the harder matchups Predict is so much better. Also, I have really been disappointed with Mishra's Factory lately. I feel that they just don't do enough. Having one more Wasteland (and maybe one Academy Ruins) and two more colored mana sources feels really good.
Dark Confidant might be a really nice additions to the deck, although they won't be that good in the Zoo or Goblins matchups, which I have found to be really troublesome. I am going to try playing 3 Tombstalkers in a small local tournament tomorrow, because I feel that I need more big creatures against aggro decks (especially if they play Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile and QPM maindeck).
Seems a good idea to test at first sight.I would like to see some test , people are playing Black for SB Perish but then you need to cut Red or Green to maintain the stable manabase if you run MD Confidents.Confidents also eat some StP and other things that goes for your nought.
Super Bizarros Team.
HUEHUEHUE BRBRBR. VIVA DILMA!!! EM NOME DE JESUS CRISTO!
I've played the black splash with Confidant over Standstill a few times. It was good, but I believe it was better with Mystical Tutor in the format. Dreadstill just boned Reanimator whenever I played against it. If you're playing against Zoo most rounds, it isn't so hot. Bob makes your Firespouts worse and Firespout is a necessity.
As for black removal, Smother is better than Deathmark. Dreadstill is already littered with 1 drops for CB, and being a sorcery isn't so good.
Tusk up.
Thanks for the quick replies!
My main concern here is really about getting rid of standstills. I do not like them, and I think it could open up some possibilities, having 3-4 more spots in the deck and 4 new land spots (academy ruins is a nice goodie i guess, as someone mentioned above). I felt that Confidant would be the logical choice, so as to not lose card-engine.
It certainly is a problem, but I am not sure of what magnitude, that Confidant makes firespout less effective (I use 2 in main, quite aggro-oriented meta here in my town - lost 2 of my matches in earlier-mentioned tournament to goblins) but I do believe you can play around it. Another alternative would perhaps be having explosives replacing firespouts. After all, explosives are more versatile and controllable.
I can't help getting the feeling that we might be unto something here. It seems to me that there hasn't been too much discussion around confidant, and too much confidence in standstill, which forces us to play a sub-par playset (that being mishra's, In my humble opinion).
having black also opens up interesting side board opportunities
p.s if I add black I will most definately still have a red splash in my MD. if I cut the mishras it should be possible
I have to say that Standstill has been an excellent card for me, today and in times past. It is the most skill-intensive card in the deck, and its optimal application to a game may not be apparent at first glance. But with patience and practice, I suspect you will find that Standstill will hand you games that no other card would.
For example, on the draw against Zoo in Legacy Worlds, I Mulligan to five cards. But I have a second turn Standstill to answer my opponent's empty board after using Force of Will against his threat. He cracks it with Wild Nacatyl, only to see my playing a Top, a Factory, and another Standstill on my turn. I end up winning through the large pile of card advantage created by this setup.
I have played with 3 and 4 Standstills before, and believe the fourth Standstill is a metagame call. But playing Zero will hinder the deck too much, as the ability to drop a Standstill is one of the most powerful plays the deck has. And as for Mishra's Factory, I have been nothing but impressed with the card. Even outside the context of Standstill, it enables the deck to have an efficient clock even without a Dreadnought arriving.
If you play Confidant you play him alongside Standstill not cut SS for him. Playing a 3/3 split between Confidants and Standstill I think is correct if you want to go down that route. You could also SB 1 Confidant for the matchups that rely on Standstill heavily and have 4 solid draw engine cards MD whereas their Standstills will be more or less useless. But I think Standstill is not up for discussion of cutting, it does way too much for this deck.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
@ Poster hating on Standstill:
Standstill is great in a variety of matches, but is also one of the things that needs to be sided out in others. Example, Vial-based decks happen to be great against Standstill (Goblins, Fish) so I tend to side them out in those matches.
The catch side to this is that in the matches were it shines, it usually gets you out of tough situations by filling your hand with cards. Your opponent will definitely play tighter once he's set off a Standstill, as those three cards could be counters to his key threats. It's like the whole "Once you see a Daze, you always play around it." Such is the same with Standstill. It provides massive card advantage, and most of the time, you're the one getting that advantage.
I'm a fan of 3-4 of them. 4 Is nice, but if you needed another EE or something, I wouldn't be devastated in cutting the 4th. I usually play the 4th, or a Vision Charm.
Also, you should check out the "Dreadstalker" thread if you're interested on adding Tombstalkers to the deck. It's a pretty cool design.
Regards,
-Matt
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