[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[bryanzoll]

You can stifle what ability exactly?

While writing that response I never confirmed the actual ruling on TNN and turns out I was incorrect about its ability. TNN does not have a triggered ability therefore cannot be stifled.

[bryanzoll]

I spoke briefly with Yan and gathered some input from him in regards to the proposed transformational sideboard.

Here is where I currently stand with it:

SB:
2 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Apostles Blessing
4 Goblin Guide
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Pyroblast

I like the 2 Vortex over the 4th lavamancer + X because in the sideboard plan, the goal is to kill them as quick as possible and life gain effects will only allow them to reach mid/late game. It stops batterskull and turns griselbrand into a 7/7 flyer.

[HammafistRoob]

Wouldn't it make more sense to just take the Blessings and Sulfur Elementals out? I would think that if you're going the transformational route, you'd want to push that as much as possible. I would test out Chain Lightning in their stead and/or max out on Price of Progress.

The only thing I can't really figure out is which matchups become much better by doing this, maybe BUG variants and Jund?

[bryanzoll]

Wouldn't it make more sense to just take the Blessings and Sulfur Elementals out? I would think that if you're going the transformational route, you'd want to push that as much as possible. I would test out Chain Lightning in their stead and/or max out on Price of Progress.

The only thing I can't really figure out is which matchups become much better by doing this, maybe BUG variants and Jund?

I can see cutting the blessings, but elementals are needed against death and taxes.

[HammafistRoob]

I do acknowledge that D&T is a pretty miserable matchup, but Sulfur Elemental is just terribly narrow for my taste. I think you would be better off with Rough // Tumble since it's great against not only Taxes but also Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk, which are all pretty tough matchups in their own right.

I'm not sure if Vortex is where you want to be though depending on your mana base since a 3 drop with RR in the cost can be pretty clunky at times.

[HammafistRoob]

Sorry about the double post, it won't let me edit for some reason :,(.
So, I've been brainstorming of a way to make Abrupt Decay decks struggle to keep up with us by overloading on targets for it instead of playing situational gunk like Apostle's Blessings/Divert/Vision Charm. How weird does this list look?

//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

//CREATURES-11
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

//PERMANENTS-12
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

//SPELLS-16
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Swords to Plowshares

I know, I know, no Lightning Bolts or Delvers seems really strange, but it's just an idea I'm throwing out there. I really think Counterbalance is super strong even with Decay floating around since at worst it's a 1-for-1, both cards being 2 mana so it's not really a beating or anything. The sideboard could be loaded with goodies like Meddling Mage along with the usual suspects, with maybe even Peacekeeper making a long awaited return. Oblivion Ring could also be kinda cute but I'm not sure. I've done zero testing with this build so take this list with a grain of salt. I'm just trying to get everyone's mind flowing in a different direction to see what we can come up with.

(I'm joking about Peacekeeper)

EDIT- So I tried out the list and it isn't good, Dreadnought just doesn't pull his weight if you don't have an overload of counter magic to protect his fat ass. Counterbalance has been good so far, but I'm still not sure about Stoneforge though.

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys, this is what I was testing ecxessively during the last 2 months.

UB Dreadnought

3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

4x Standstill

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Disfigure
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind /// Could be Torpor Orb, but then I should play 2, since one is pretty random

1x Island
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tropical island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland

2x Ponder

Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
3x Mizzium Skin /// Could be Apostle's Blessing which might be better against Decay, since it's castable from all lands in the deck
2x Spell Snare (this slot is mostly undecided)
2x Submerge
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Deathmark
2x Thoughtseize

First: This list is mostly mirrored from the UR lists floating around this thread. Therefore it plays out really similiar. The difference is ofc the missing of Lightning Bolt and Lavamancer as well as Sideboard cards with RedBlast-Effects. As replacement we get a stricty worse removal spell in Disfigure but a strictly more versatile creature in form of Deathrite Shaman. As addition, black allows some different directions in terms of sideboard-tech. When testing the UR-Version I was mostly dissatisfied with the sideboard cards, which were bad against the decks which this deck is naturally bad against (Jund, BUG, Maverick/Junk, Stoneblade/DnT). Black gives us discard against Stoneblade and Combo decks. It also offers more efficient tools for creature removal in form of Deathmark.
Overall I really like this configuration - especially the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman which is a much more serious clock under Standstill than Grim Lavamancer.

[HammafistRoob]

I like the look of that list, seems good at first glance. I'm still a fan of Vision Charm over Blessing, since it's also a Dreadnought enabler and a Batterskull destroyer. Nice work though, have you considered Darkblast in the side for decks with a lot of small butts? I've always loved the power of the card myself.

[Yan]

First: This list is mostly mirrored from the UR lists floating around this thread. Therefore it plays out really similiar. The difference is ofc the missing of Lightning Bolt and Lavamancer as well as Sideboard cards with RedBlast-Effects. As replacement we get a stricty worse removal spell in Disfigure but a strictly more versatile creature in form of Deathrite Shaman. As addition, black allows some different directions in terms of sideboard-tech. When testing the UR-Version I was mostly dissatisfied with the sideboard cards, which were bad against the decks which this deck is naturally bad against (Jund, BUG, Maverick/Junk, Stoneblade/DnT). Black gives us discard against Stoneblade and Combo decks. It also offers more efficient tools for creature removal in form of Deathmark.
Overall I really like this configuration - especially the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman which is a much more serious clock under Standstill than Grim Lavamancer.

Wait...what?! How is DRS a better clock under Standstill than Lavamancer? They are pretty much the exact same clock, both having 1 power and shooting for 2. The only difference is that you can actually play your Standstill in situations when you are actually behind on board, if you have Lavamancer, because you can also shoot their guys. DRS adds two elements, that this deck doesn't really require (mana and life) more. If you still want to go with it, I would suggest Dismember in place of at least some Disfigures. DRS might help with the life loss at least. Bolt is still superior of course, with it's ability to kill players with one mana ;)


Other subjects: On the transformational sideboard, I would too probably try to max out on a full transform. Anyway, the transformation would be to fight against the same matchups that Blessing/Misdirection is already fighting, so no need for those anymore. Vision Charm is btw not so devastating against Batterskull, as it only phases an artifact, not a creature. Still okay though. Roobs list looks quit juicy, too much going on for me though :P I have pondered with some possible meta shifts, and I would probably go almost mono blue with counterbalances in a combo heavy meta, but I don't really see it happening, at least not around here.

[HammafistRoob]

Doh, for some reason I always thought that the Skull germ was a black artifact creature, I guess Charm isn't really good in that case. Yan is right, the list I threw up was all over the place and lacked focus, so just ignore it for now... I'm still convinced that Counterbalance is amazing and we need to find a way to have some 3 drops to go along with it. Stuff like Trinket Mage and Crucible is all I can really think of though. Vedalken Shackles has always been awesome but it's not very good these days :(.

[Yan]

Doh, for some reason I always thought that the Skull germ was a black artifact creature, I guess Charm isn't really good in that case. Yan is right, the list I threw up was all over the place and lacked focus, so just ignore it for now... I'm still convinced that Counterbalance is amazing and we need to find a way to have some 3 drops to go along with it. Stuff like Trinket Mage and Crucible is all I can really think of though. Vedalken Shackles has always been awesome but it's not very good these days :(.

Exactly the things I would like to do and the cards I miss playing with :/ Sadly I have tried and tried and the tempoish list just seems to perform better. One possible way would be to drop Standstills and go for balance instead, but again at least for me, that sounds like blasphemy.

[HammafistRoob]

//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins

//CREATURES-9
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage

//PERMANENTS-10
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives

//SPELLS-20
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Intuition
3 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Life from the Loam

My attempt at a more controlling build, I'm gonna do a bit of testing with it and see how it runs. The sideboard is definitely where I'm lost at the moment since this build is radically different than the ones I've recently played (not many to be honest, I'm trying to muster up the courage to bring ol' Still to a tournament). The side obviously needs more help against Taxes and Elves, which is why I have the volc in instead of some other dual
(for E.E @ 3). I'm pretty sure Team America, Jund, Miracles, and Sharldess will also need some help from the sideboard, I have some ideas but not many.

Any suggestions Yan? To be honest, you probably play this deck a lot more than anybody at this point so I trust your opinion.

[JanoschEausH]

...Wait...what?! How is DRS a better clock under Standstill than Lavamancer? They are pretty much the exact same clock, both having 1 power and shooting for 2. The only difference is that you can actually play your Standstill in situations when you are actually behind on board, if you have Lavamancer, because you can also shoot their guys. DRS adds two elements, that this deck doesn't really require (mana and life) more. If you still want to go with it, I would suggest Dismember in place of at least some Disfigures. DRS might help with the life loss at least. Bolt is still superior of course, with it's ability to kill players with one mana ;) ...

What I meant by saying DRS is better under Standstill is the following: DRS needs less recources to be effective under standstill. Oftentimes my opponent doesn't crack Standstill at first. Lavamancer is just a 1/1 sausage guy. So your opponent can work on sculpting his hand post-standstill while taking minor beats. DRS provides solid 2 DMG each turn by using only 1 card per activation, while Lavamancer needs 2 cards in your OWN graveyard.

Of course you have a point, when you say you can cast Standstill while being behind. This is not possible with DRS.

But Shaman is also nice in matchups where you need the grave-hate. Against Storm or Reanimator for example. Lavamancer is mostly dead against all decks besides Death 'n' Taxes, Maverick, Elves and to some extend Stoneblade. DRS has just so much more board impact. And the mana producing ability is often nice to have when playing against taxing counters.

I aggree in trying some Dismembers instead of Disfigures. Disfigure was always the card which I liked less about the list.

[Yan]

//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins

//CREATURES-9
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage

//PERMANENTS-10
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives

//SPELLS-20
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Intuition
3 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Life from the Loam

My attempt at a more controlling build, I'm gonna do a bit of testing with it and see how it runs. The sideboard is definitely where I'm lost at the moment since this build is radically different than the ones I've recently played (not many to be honest, I'm trying to muster up the courage to bring ol' Still to a tournament). The side obviously needs more help against Taxes and Elves, which is why I have the volc in instead of some other dual
(for E.E @ 3). I'm pretty sure Team America, Jund, Miracles, and Sharldess will also need some help from the sideboard, I have some ideas but not many.

Any suggestions Yan? To be honest, you probably play this deck a lot more than anybody at this point so I trust your opinion.

To be honest, I probably put the most thought in the deck, but don't get to play enough. Luckily syfilisx is doing that for me :D I basically test here and there when I can find the time but mostly I just play in bigger tournaments nowadays.

I didn't see the Loam at first in your list, so I was instantly going to suggest Crucible. As it is, Loam is probably just better if you are not playing many red cards. I like how the list looks and I'm definitely a fan of Academy Ruins + EE (was just talking yesterday to Jani how I miss playing with those two). I would probably still try to just let go of Standstill in that list (I know, it sounds crazy). More Trinket Mage for me for sure too, maybe shave the Clique, seems a bit random anyway. For me, no matter how much I love Standstill, it doesn't go in to the same deck with counterbalance AND loam. You already have so much card advantage in those too, that it's just not needed anymore and without lavamancers and bolts, you'll have hard time getting to position where it would even be good. It won't be DreadStill anymore technically, but it will be something very similar.

I know I like the control list, I know it makes me warm and fuzzy inside, I know it will be a blast to play. But I also know that it won't be as competent as the Lavamancer list. This guy just kills everything that gets played nowadays and it eats the opponents removal ahead of the real threats. That said, I'm an old school player and been around a long time, so I'm all in for fun brews, so I totally approve this counterbalance-dreadnought idea and I will make a big point that it will probably be a lot fun to play with, just I wouldn't bring it to Legacy GP tomorrow or even next month.

And it's about time for you to grow a pair and take this old lady to a tournament :P I think this deck needs guys like you and Roodmistah to show some love for it. :)

What I meant by saying DRS is better under Standstill is the following: DRS needs less recources to be effective under standstill. Oftentimes my opponent doesn't crack Standstill at first. Lavamancer is just a 1/1 sausage guy. So your opponent can work on sculpting his hand post-standstill while taking minor beats. DRS provides solid 2 DMG each turn by using only 1 card per activation, while Lavamancer needs 2 cards in your OWN graveyard.

Of course you have a point, when you say you can cast Standstill while being behind. This is not possible with DRS.

But Shaman is also nice in matchups where you need the grave-hate. Against Storm or Reanimator for example. Lavamancer is mostly dead against all decks besides Death 'n' Taxes, Maverick, Elves and to some extend Stoneblade. DRS has just so much more board impact. And the mana producing ability is often nice to have when playing against taxing counters.

I aggree in trying some Dismembers instead of Disfigures. Disfigure was always the card which I liked less about the list.

I still don't buy it. Objectively, DRS is a very powerful card, but with Standstill, Lavamancer is just plain better. Even more now that DRS is so widely played. DRS vs. DRS battle can also be awkward as they can always respond to your DRS with their own. With Lavamancer, there is no chance for anything to happen as it's part of the cost. Also it's not that big of a deal to have 2 cards in your graveyard as opposed to instants/sorceries in either, sometimes it will be the exact opposite even. Against a variety of decks, yes DRS is probably more powerfull (honestly don't like the card and I'm not even sure that this is correct in this deck at all) but with Standstill and mostly everything else in this deck, Lavamancer takes the win. It's all about synergy and what the deck needs. I don't want to say that the UB version is strictly worse or something, but it has to do something else to be reasonable choice, than trying to mimic the UR version with inferior cards. Boarding plans for red versions are obviously also better in general, so you can easily kick out those Lavamancers to the board when they are not needed.

[HammafistRoob]

To be honest, I probably put the most thought in the deck, but don't get to play enough. Luckily syfilisx is doing that for me :D I basically test here and there when I can find the time but mostly I just play in bigger tournaments nowadays.

I hardly ever play Legacy anymore, although it's picking up a bit around here and if I can find a list I like enough, I'll surely take it out a few times at least.

I didn't see the Loam at first in your list, so I was instantly going to suggest Crucible. As it is, Loam is probably just better if you are not playing many red cards. I like how the list looks and I'm definitely a fan of Academy Ruins + EE (was just talking yesterday to Jani how I miss playing with those two). I would probably still try to just let go of Standstill in that list (I know, it sounds crazy). More Trinket Mage for me for sure too, maybe shave the Clique, seems a bit random anyway. For me, no matter how much I love Standstill, it doesn't go in to the same deck with counterbalance AND loam. You already have so much card advantage in those too, that it's just not needed anymore and without lavamancers and bolts, you'll have hard time getting to position where it would even be good. It won't be DreadStill anymore technically, but it will be something very similar.

Yeah Crucible doesn't work with the mini Intuition package, that's the main reason I went for Loam. I know the Clique looks random at first, but when you think about it, seeing so many cards a game makes one-ofs much better. Basically he serves multiple rolls just being a one-of, he's brilliant against Stoneforge, he races True-Name, the 4th 3 drop for CB, and a way to snipe out Planeswalkers. I've only play a hand full of games so far but he's actually been a lot better than I initially expected.

Loam isn't really a CA engine in most cases. It's used mainly for the E.E soft lock, or to Wasteland the opponent out after CBTop is online. I think it could be a fantastic way of beating Abrupt Decay, by just Wastelocking them lol. Loam is also pretty nutty with a Sensei's Top or even a Brainstorm.

I know I like the control list, I know it makes me warm and fuzzy inside, I know it will be a blast to play. But I also know that it won't be as competent as the Lavamancer list. This guy just kills everything that gets played nowadays and it eats the opponents removal ahead of the real threats. That said, I'm an old school player and been around a long time, so I'm all in for fun brews, so I totally approve this counterbalance-dreadnought idea and I will make a big point that it will probably be a lot fun to play with, just I wouldn't bring it to Legacy GP tomorrow or even next month.

I get your point concerning Lavamancer, and I would definitely have some in the board. Maybe he could even get pushed in there somehow, but I'm not seeing where just yet. I think this list is actually stronger than it seems against all these crappy midrange decks that we have floating around today. I do forsee Deathrite being a problem for my Loam though, and perhaps Lavamncer is needed even in a control list.

And it's about time for you to grow a pair and take this old lady to a tournament :P I think this deck needs guys like you and Roodmistah to show some love for it. :)

Roodmistah hasn't played Legacy in about a year or so, I've offered him to come with us to the larger sized tournaments when we go but he doesn't seem very interested at the moment. I do know that this is the only deck he ever plays when he does make it outta the cave, so there's still hope :). As for me playing this menace, I'll see what I can do. The only local near me is about 30 minutes away and I've only been twice in the last few months... I gotta convince the crew to start making the weekly trek.

Thanks for the honest answer, I really appreciate your opinion.

[Yan]

With your explanations, I'd say go with that. Your choices totally make sense. Maybe I would still revisit the Standstills in that list and think, are they really bringing something to it. I personally know that it's hard to let go of that one, as I even have it tattooed on my skin ;) I call that true dedication :P Cutting Standstill would also free up slots for maybe another Trinket Mage, Spell Pierce and something else. Though, this is only my gut feeling and how I felt long time ago playing with balance and standstill in the same deck. So if it does work, I'll stand corrected. For me it's actually quite simple choice: Top-Balance or Lavamancer-Still.

Thanks to you too.

[HammafistRoob]

No way, you got a Standstill tatt? You have to post that, f'in schweeet!

[Yan]

No way, you got a Standstill tatt? You have to post that, f'in schweeet!

Never done this so let's try if it works.

As requested, here's some chest for you:


EDIT: not the most quality picture but you'll get the idea anyway. Priceless jaw drops after dropping Standstill and showing this ;)

[HammafistRoob]

That's full of epic win. I'm a little jelly, not gonna lie. Is it actually colored in or just black? It's tough to tell but I'd guess black.

[Yan]

That's full of epic win. I'm a little jelly, not gonna lie. Is it actually colored in or just black? It's tough to tell but I'd guess black.

Haha, thanks! It's just black with shades of grey. It's around 5 years old so the colour isn't so bright anymore.