So that's already 9 cards main deck that "deals" with it (13 if you count Dazes too!). I think it sounds like plenty. Not to mention that all of our creatures just totally ignore it, Delver flying, Dreadnought trampling and Lavamancer shooting face. TNN is absolutely NOT the problem. It only becomes a problem when equipped with something, which makes the equipments problematic, not TNN itself. I was really trying to figure out other 3-drops that would cause an actual problem but there just aren't any. Usually it feels just too slow to use EE against 3-drops and you will pretty much never gain any card advantage from it. I think the hardest part of this deck is to asses your role in each matchup. G1 you are usually the tempo deck, but after boarding you really have to have a clear idea what you are trying to do and what you actually can do. Some decks, like Jund for example, you just can't try to control, so it's better to push all in and try to get a bit lucky. Then there are decks like Miracles, where it is fairly easy to just control the game and play it safely.Originally Posted by pandaman
I guess I just like that 3CMC option. And I forgot about Daze, sorry. I don't find it gets you into trouble that often, but I'll keep a note from now on when the Trop pops up and see what ends up happening.
Good idea :) I've been basically doing that in reverse, but I can't recall a moment in recent history where I wished I had that Tropical to go with EE. Tropical does open up an option for boarding Ancient Grudge, which does sound tempting. However, I do remember those times when Maverick was very popular and against double Knights, EE at 3 is very good.
How's your sideboarding document been developing lately, Yan? I can see with your new list there would need to be some slight changes.
Let's just say that it has changed :D I can send the updated one to you.
edit. should be in your mail box, if your e-mail hasn't changed since the last time :)
Also, I'm sad there hasn't been more DreadStill in Top 8's for recent months. I think we should get back to restoring the deck to glory!
We had a "Big Legacy" tournament in Brisbane today and I put my mate on my UR Dreadstill deck because he we couldn't get the cards for Sneak 'n Show (his preferred deck) together in time.
2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Standstill
1 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
Sideboard (15)
1 Misdirection
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grim Lavamancer
He ran 3-1-1 making Top 8, but lost to a misplay in the first elimination round. Talking to him about it, he felt that if he knew how to play it better he would have won both the matches he lost (i.e. he made many misplays). But that just goes to show the power of the deck. He said the standout cards were Misdirection and Pithing Needle, and commented that he could have used the ability to cast Engineered Explosives for three colours a few times (Lili and TNN).
Who else is still playing the deck?
It's a heavy white meta where I play these days and so Dreadstill is on the bench. I think you have to look at UB(x) these days as a possibility. You have to be able to get Swords to Plowshares and Council's Judgement out of the opponent's hand before resolving Dreadnought. Some UW lists are playing Detention Sphere as a removal option also and it's very good against dreadnought.
I'd also be reluctant to go to just 13 blue sources these days. There's a lot of BUG and D&T in the meta and wastelands are back in vogue.
I think that the most viable Dreadnought decks right now are the ones playing CB/Top and Cloudform. Such decks are a lot stronger vs removal and can grind better etc. I don't have an exact list but I think that the shell for those decks is pretty interesting to brew with.
That's how Dreadstill used to run in its heyday in 2008. CounterTop to stop StP. It might be the way to go now but that means no Delver.
Well it's not really about stopping StP, Cloudform does that already, it's more about stopping decay actually, as that card really made the old CB/Dreadnought decks pretty obsolete. A cloudformed dreadnought is a much more difficult threat to deal with for decay decks. But yes, that CB is very good versus tundra decks is also a nice thing.
I've seen some interesting builds of Cloudform decks that I think has potential, I have no clue wether they are good enough honestly, but I think it's worth brining up for consideration.
I think the real problem with running CounterTop in this is that in 2008 4 Brainstorms and 3-4 Sensei's Divining Top was excellent consistency for the format. In 2015 it's mediocre. Not bad but definitely not as good as some of the consistency options available. The blue shell even cannibalizes itself in some ways.
The real problem is Abrupt Decay, no questions. Dreadstill started to stumble once Krosan Grip got printed and Abrupt Decay only made things worse.
By playing Stiflenought and Force of Will you are very much behind in cards by default. This requires some form of card advantage. Your realistic options are pretty much Standstill, Dig Through Time, Countertop and Dark Confidant. I even did great with Kira before Decay but it's less impressive nowadays.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Thing is, the deck crushes Miracles. Which is more the pity.
I think that the deck could be built to be very consistent, so I don't really follow the 2008-reference, but I think that the traditional Stifle version is too weak vs decay. Standstill is nice though.
I sincerely doubt that anyone has done excessive testing with this deck vs a good miracle pilot with a good build in order to have sufficient data to say that this deck crushes miracles for sure, but I could of course be wrong about that.
Miracles is an ok matchup not a great one in my experience. Once we resolve Dreadnought they still have the same removal suite and the odds are against us having another Stifle in hand to stop the Miracle trigger on Terminus. Stopping them from spinning the top endlessly with fetches is a great thing but then we're using action to do that since noughts become dead in hand without Stifle and Trickbind in the lists that play it.
Probably the way to crush Miracles, really be dominant against it, is to use the Dreadstill shell rotated to BUG with Tarmogoyf replacing Phyrexian Dreadnought and Abrupt Decay replacing Lightning Bolt. That's within a half dozen cards of BUG Delver which has a pretty good Miracles matchup.
In the Miracles match, you board out Dreadnought and Lavamancer. You become the control deck, pinging for damage with only one creature per turn (either Delver or Factory). You have Pithing Needle for Top and EE for CB or Angels. You have more counterspells than they do. You have a card advantage engine where they don't (be careful of their Flash creatures in response to Standstill). If you look back over the reports in this thread I don't believe there is a single loss to Miracles.
Good to hear positive results, even more when it's someone who isn't necessarily familiar with the deck. It just means that there really is power behind it. I haven't put Dreadstill together in a while because I'm testing other things for GP Lille. Pandaman's list looks very familiar ;) I would still want that basic mountain though, but that's just a preference and I can totally understand the desire for an off color dual land.
Miracles is definitely a good match up, if you know how to board and how it needs to be played out (exactly how pandaman described). I have done very excessive testing and faced it many times in tournaments too (0 tournament play losses) and I believe syfilisix has done even more testing than me and would describe the match as "what a joke." (The Joe Losset Miracles build with legends is a bit harder actually, but the more popular euro build is the one I'm talking about) I don't even think that BUG delver have such a good match against Miracles, as they lack the exact tools that are good for Dreadstill in that match, so I don't understand the point in trying to make the deck more like BUG Delver. ...well, I also don't understand why we have to bring #BlueShell in to the deck discussion :P So I just remain puzzled and amused :)
Cloudform is something I haven't honestly tested, so I can't say if it's good enough. My gut feeling says that it would require too much set up. So I would stay with the more versatile Misdirection, but I also probably just have an unhealthy amount of love towards that card :D But I should probably just get a set of those Cloudforms and test it out. With them and Counterbalance, you would probably have to move away from the delver/manlands and Standstill though, there is just not enough space for all that.
Pandaman's list is actually Yan's list, all 75 cards of it. My mate said he loved it so much he's buying it!
I played the same list tonight, but only went 2-2.
R1 v Storm: Win 2-1
G1 I start on the draw and opp. takes a mull to 6. I manage to get him to 8 before he's able to Past in Flames loop a Tendrils kill.
G2 I start on the play and do a lot of countering of cantrips, Stifling of lands, and Wastelanding of lands, all the while beating with a Delver. A Lightning Bolt finishes it.
G3 I'm back on the draw and opp. again takes a mull to 6. This time, I get a T3 Dreadnought, swing for 12 putting him on next turn lethal, and Wastelanding one his three lands, leaving him with Petal, Volc, Island. On his turn he casts Dark Ritual off Lotus Petal. I Daze, he pays, then I Flusterstorm the Ritual creating two copies he can't pay for. But he Flusterstorms back, saying that he creates THREE copies and targets... waaaaaaait, I say, put your Storm trigger on the stack so I can Stifle it. Which I do, and 'Nought finishes the job the next turn with him unable to continue to combo due to lack of mana.
Note: I MISBOARDED here. I should have taken out 2 Lavamancer, 4 Bolt, a Misdirection, and a Factory for 2 Flusterstorm, 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Engineered Explosives, but instead I left Bolts in. EE would have been useful at 0 for his Lotus Petals/LEDs.
R2 v Infect: Win 1-0
G1 is very grindy. I open Volcanic into Lavamancer then a Mishra's Factory into Standstill, which is an amazing start against Infect. He is soon forced to crack my Standstill when I Lavamancer his Inkmoth Nexus, and from then on the constant cycle of forcing him to defend his creatures against Lavamancer/Bolt begins, with me cracking in for a few points of damage here and there. Eventually, that's the way it finishes, me grinding it out a point or two at a time.
G2 I open a TRIPLE Lavamancer hand. I let the first one get Dazed but resolve the second and third. However, he's also drawing all his Inkmoth Nexus, which are the only creature in the deck that really gives me trouble. However, the grind begins again, and he's pinging for the occasional poison damage and me the occasional damage. I'm winning the race when time is called, giving him three turns to kill me. He does nothing his first two turns, but neither do I because I won the first game and am sitting on double active Lavamancer in play and Trickbind, Stifle, FoW, Pierce, and Misdirection in hand. I Trickbind one of his Inkmoths on his last turn and he realises he can't kill me.
R2 v RUG Delver: Loss 1-2.
G1 I'm on the play with a double Spell Pierce Standstill hand. I Spell Pierce a Ponder off a Volcanic Island on T1 because I think he's on Storm. Daze. Nope, not storm. I misplay by not ramming a Standstill on T2 and making him let me draw three cards for his Mongoose, which he gets through and which ultimately gets there.
G2 I'm again on the play, but have the option of T2 Nought with Force protection or waiting until T3 for another Volc to have T3 Nought with Force and Pyroblast protection. I opt for the latter, and he resolves a couple of Geese I don't care about because I'm about to get a 12/12 trampler. I go for it, he Brainstorms, but I Pyroblast it, figuring he's probably got nothing. He hasn't, it resolves, and it turns out he didn't realise that Nought tramples... Game over man, game over.
G3 I'm on the draw, and although we battle back and forward he eventually gets on the offensive with a Mongoose while using Ancient Grudge, flashback Ancient Grudge, and Stifle to stymie my attempts to chump block the thing with one of my THREE Mishra's Factories. I eventually kill it, but he has drawn a Tarmogoyf and I haven't drawn anything.
Note: I MISBOARDED here. I left Bolt in, but I should have taken it out, it's useless. You just need creatures to chump block his Delvers and Gooses and so I should have gone -2 Lavamancer -4 Bolt -1 Misdirection -1 Factory for +4 REB effects +2 Flusterstorm +2 EE. EE would have been incredible useful at 1 on Goose or 2 on Goyf.
I think the misboarding probably lost me the game. I would much rather have been looking at EEs or Flusterstorms than Bolts in G3, which I was.
Round 4 v Mono U OmniTell: Loss 1-2
G1 I get it on with a Turn 1 Delver blind flipped on T3. He goes for a Show and Tell which I counter (using my Misdirection to redirect the top copy of his Flusterstorm on the stack onto his own Show and Tell), but he manages a second that I can't stop. He's on 1 life. He puts in Emrakul, I put in Standstill (I thought that I might as well because if he puts in Omniscience I get to draw three cards when he tries to cast something and I might find a Bolt). My turn, I draw a Brainstorm. I Brainstorm, cracking my own Standstill, to find a Bolt for the win. He has a FoW but can't use it because he's at 1.'
Note: I tried to be tricky and didn't flip Delver to the Spell Pierce I saw on T2. I should have flipped it. Then all the garbage about him being on one life and resolving his second SnT would have been irrelevant because he'd have been dead.
-2 Lavamancer -4 Bolt -1 Wasteland +4 REB effects +2 Flusterstorm +1 Misdirection
G2 He gets Boseiju into Show and Tell with one mana open on Turn 3. He puts in Omniscience, while I put in a second Delver. He goes for Dig Through Time. "Good!" I think, he hasn't got the combo yet. I Pierce the Dig. He plays a second Dig. I Force the second Dig. He plays Flusterstorm all over my counterspells and wins...
G3 I open a very disruptive hand but with no pressure. I keep it, countering his cantrips, but end up exhausted and he resolves a SnT for Emrakul and wins.
Note: I think I played G3 incorrectly. I think I should have shipped my 7 to look for an opening hand with: (1) Delver; (2) Nought with the possibility to find a Stifle; or (3) Mishra's Factory. Just any pressure, really. I'm not sure keeping a heavy controlling hand relying on drawing into pressure is a good idea.
I feel like both the matchups I lost are very winnable, and had I played and boarded better I would have given myself a much better chance. Will continue to playtest.
Yan, about boarding for Infect. I know you like to leave Pithing Needle out, but to me it seemed as if it would have been incredibly useful on Inkmoth Nexus. It's their best card against us (Lavamancer and Bolt keep the other creatures in check). Of course, you need to figure out two more cards to take out, which is difficult.
I boarded like this:
-2 Dreadnought
-4 Delver
-1 Factory
+4 REB effects
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Misdirection
I went much more controlling than I know you like to. I got away with it because of the triple Lavamancer opener in G2, but I'm wondering if my boarding out Delver may have cost me in the long run by leaving me unable to block Inkmoth. The counter-argument is, of course, that if I had found a Pithing Needle on Inkmoth then they only have 8 creatures you need to worry about. I probably overboarded on blasts, although their unblockable infect guy is Blue and they do pack a lot of permission post-board.
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