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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #3701

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    So please explain how Nimble Obstructionist furthers your plan. Phyrexian Dreadnought has a triggered ability that you control, I don't understand how this works in your favor.

    Also, I was reading rulings and it sounded like Planeswalker abilities can't be stifled? That can't be correct, can it?

  2. #3702
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Afaiui: Nimble Obstructionist counters opponents' abilities without breaking Standstill.

    Walkers' abilities are merely activated abilities. You can counter their effect, but not their cost being paid (i. e. loyalty counters being placed on/removed from them).

  3. #3703
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    So please explain how Nimble Obstructionist furthers your plan. Phyrexian Dreadnought has a triggered ability that you control, I don't understand how this works in your favor.

    Also, I was reading rulings and it sounded like Planeswalker abilities can't be stifled? That can't be correct, can it?
    Still a flash 3/1 if you want it, without needing . Stifles enemy Wasteland activation under Standstill. Can hit fetches as well if you are on the mana denial plan. Clique has a beneficial ETB in a deck that would rather have Torpor Orb in play at all times. Clique doesn't offer the ability win games outright, it has a generically good effect (in a Dreadnought shell, particularly a non-optimized list, you'll go from losing to losing less hard, but still losing). In terms of winning outright, Obstructionist can do things like: prevent PW ults and hit storm triggers (Therapy is the only card they run that can get this out of hand).

    When you're making Dreadnought decks, there is a much higher need for every card to interconnect, but also remain interchangeable towards a plan that wins games [protected by countermagic]. One of the more deceptive things about UR Dreadstill is Bolt - that's not actually removal [sure, it can be], that's 3 points towards 20 damage. The deck is actually very similar to UR Delver, except that we can manipulate tempo by combining mana denial, Standstill plans, and threatening chunks of 12 damage. Unless you're up against linear combo, making 12/12s is just a thing you can do, not a requirement. Nimble Obstructionist doesn't have to be able to 'do the thing' with Dreadnought, it fits in to all the other plans and in doing so it indirectly promotes the Dreadnought agenda. Unless I'm running Karakas and recursively targeting self with trigger or adding in some Leovold nonsense, I'd have very little interest in Clique; it's not reliable enough to act as double duress - and what's the point, draw the opponent into mana I've been denying?

  4. #3704

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Alpine Moon looks promising. Shutting of opponents Maze/Waste/Chasm/... Could be a good sideboard card against, but then again, they could crop into something else. (we have counters for that)

    Anyways, with the DRS ban, I think I will replace that one off Izzet Charm by another Spell Pierce. Don't know yet, it has been good, but 2 mana, against 1 mana, for that extra flexibility is still a lot. I use Izzet charm as a spell pierce 85% of the time. 10% as a shock for creatures and 5% as a faithless looting.

    Although I like that instant speed looting effect

  5. #3705
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    With the format changing, will u/r players try to speed up their clock? I'm thinking Fling, chain lightning, etc, so it's more likely you can win in one turn?
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  6. #3706

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Mmmm, fling is a very nice idea, you don't need a stifle to shoot 12 damage in their face.

    What do you think Fox? 3 mana for 12 damage, or just as a protective spell against removal

    I will try a one off.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Mmmm, fling is a very nice idea, you don't need a stifle to shoot 12 damage in their face.

    What do you think Fox? 3 mana for 12 damage, or just as a protective spell against removal

    I will try a one off.
    It even makes me want to jam my steam vents and go red. I think in the absence if forces going more combo could be a reasonable direction. I was already dinging myself in groups of 4 life with dismember, why not steam vents instead? It also makes me want to play blood moon, but it kills my wastelands and factories.
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  8. #3708
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Fling is fine, but you're a soft permission deck tapping down 3 mana and telling opponent to interact on the stack or take 12. It's hard to beat opponent soft permission (Fluster/Pierce/Daze) like this. The other idea of make the Dreadnought, holding up Fling until opponent goes to remove it or using it to deny lifelink is janky, but yes, it works here. The other noteworthy function is [regardless of resolving] putting a Factory in the bin rather than letting it be exiled or hit by Terminus; but this is kind of pointless without something like Crucible in play.

    Mainboard Fling represents something you can do, but doesn't really push the deck's plans forward (mana denial, Standstill). I don't see a bad matchup [mainboard] getting that much better, and it's just another card that has to travel with Dreadnoughts to the sideboard. If Fling is in the board, there's very few matchups where I want this extra burn threat to come join the Dreadnoughts I'm leaving in - we're describing an opponent on a deck without countermagic or much discard (or an opponent who nukes their own life totals), and those should already be pretty good matchups. If you want more red cards, I'd stick with ones that primarily get you on the Standstill plan and then get turned on opponent life totals (like Bolt). Also at the 3 mana point, Fling is competing directly with a card like Dack Fayden/Snapcaster Mage/Search for Azcanta and indirectly competing with a JTMS or Chandra-ToD...honestly you might actually add Hazoret or Keranos to that list. I don't think going all-in on a card that wants to win on the spot is all that necessary in a Standstill shell, and with DRS freshly banned I'm definitely looking at mana denial as the most important focal point to generate higher win percentage; Trickbind as the fifth Stifle has never looked better.

    @Mr. Safety, Blood Moon is so pointless for us, we can operate under enemy Blood Moon rather easily and have tech to phase it out on our turn postboard. Let opponents be the ones diluting their decks and time walking themselves by putting cards without clock on board. If you're trying to add in mana disruption bombs, the most important thing is that they kill basic lands: Ghost Quarter/Shadow of Doubt, Parallax Tide, Flashfires, Mana Vortex. It's certainly powerful, and funny, but I don't think things like this really pull their weight in the sideboard.

    Edit in response to question below by @Mr. Safety: I generally prefer JVP over SCM due to no ETB and getting an untap step before going to recast a spell, except in variants either without Daze or with a lot of lands. SCM fits in UR with Standstill (despite Daze) and helps this deck get to 5 damage (SCM block/Bolt recast) which is important vs Goyf and Gurmag.
    Last edited by Fox; 07-05-2018 at 12:19 PM.

  9. #3709
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Thanks for the reply. Snapcaster Mage? Good or no?
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  10. #3710

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Edit in response to question below by @Mr. Safety: I generally prefer JVP over SCM due to no ETB and getting an untap step before going to recast a spell, except in variants either without Daze or with a lot of lands. SCM fits in UR with Standstill (despite Daze) and helps this deck get to 5 damage (SCM block/Bolt recast) which is important vs Goyf and Gurmag.
    That, and you can buyback stifle effects for Nought or further manadenial/or protecting a factory against waste.

    I play 2 TNN in it's spot, and it provides a similar function against Goyfs and Gurmag (although not destroying it immediatly). They are definitely all-stars in certain matchups, Eldrazi, DnT, Miracles, ... just to name a few. I filled my 15th slot in the sideboard by a 3rd copy, and so far I have never looked back.

    My current list below (normally my mask is in the mail today, yay!)

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Grim Lavamancer

    3 Lightning Bolt
    1 Wild Slash
    1 Izzet Charm
    1 Spell Pierce
    4 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle

    1 Illusionary Mask

    4 Standstill

    1 Mountain
    2 Island
    4 Mishra's Factories
    3 Volcanic island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Wasteland

    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    1 Commandeer
    1 Misdirection
    1 Divert
    1 Teferi's Realm
    1 Teferi's Response
    1 Reality Ripple
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    I'm not sure about 2 things for now:
    • Reality Ripple, it's not what I want currently, but it helps disabling CotV on 1 (although only for a turn to get your Nougth through) can get a Bridge away, helps against Chasm/Maze, can get a Marit Lage away for a turn. It definitly has it merits, but you remove the lock/threat temporarely, so the turn you cast it (opponents turn) in your turn after, you need to do something game changing. So I might change it by another Abrade (CotV stings) or by an echoing truth.
    • Where to put that Trickbind? In what spot would I put it in? In the spot of the Spell Pierce or the Izzet Charm?

  11. #3711
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Does this deck really work out? I assume going Stifle + Naught and then being blown out by Fatal Push hast to suck :/

  12. #3712

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I haven't seen a push in the last 9 months or so. And that's why you have counter magic. Decay is more of an issue.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by JanoschEausH View Post
    Does this deck really work out? I assume going Stifle + Naught and then being blown out by Fatal Push hast to suck :/
    Yes it works out. Swords to Plowshares has existed since the game began, it is also incredibly rare to play unprotected Dreadnoughts into removal. Beyond two Surgical, we don't run yard hate because we race it - the more offensive/linear the combo, the better. DRS is banned and opponents have to expose mana-producing lands to see our hand, so the Stifle/Wasteland plan got a major boost. The most annoying thing for the deck is that Planeswalkers are a legal card type in this format.

    @Xod I'd cut Pierce before Izzet Charm to make room for Trickbind. Going down to three Dreadnoughts is also fine since you're not able to recur Stifle. In the board Reality Ripple can come out, and Flusterstorm is probably a card we can consider dropping to a 1-of. When opting for TNN over SCM, there should definitely be a Torpor Orb in the board. If you cut Fluster, see what's in your local meta and choose between a Blast or Divert/Misdirection probably; good time to experiment though, so you could try any number of value-oriented cards (PW, Azcanta, etc) or hate (Sulfur Elemental, Sudden Demise, Mind Harness, Alpine Moon) in the other slot.

    TNN should be fine if RUG Delver goes back to tier 1, which it probably should. I prefer SCM, but this is just choosing between two great cards.

  14. #3714

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I would rather not cut pierce due to it being an extra card to stop a CotV. On the other hand, I do get the added value of izzet charm. But sometimes, if you only have 3 mana, creating that Nought with one mana open for the pierce does wonders. But I'm guessing you are right. Especially since Trickbind has more applications and protects you from counters.

    I think I will rather play a Sudden Demise, as a solide sweeper against many decks, and/or Alpine Moon, against our trouble matches. (is Mind Harness that good? only see uses against a small number of decks or Goyf decks)

    A Torpor Orb in the board is interesting, against what decks would you bring it in? I assume Elves ofcourse, DnT, Goblins, maybe Eldrazi (TKS & Endless One), are there other decks that I'm missing?

  15. #3715
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Pierce is only going to stop a Chalice if you're on the play or opponent inexplicably keeps a hand that can't produce 2 mana on turn 1. You already have FoW, and then Daze goes live once you have a main phase. Even if the opponent resolves Chalice on x=1 you still have Illus. Mask, to change the cmc to zero, and Factories; add in Trickbind and you can knock out the Chalice trigger one time to let a 1-drop resolve.

    Torpor Orb doesn't stop Endless One, nor any creature with "as it enters" or "enters the battlefield with." The first thing you're looking for with Torpor Orb is: I want more ways to cheat in Dreadnoughts, including completely colorless mechanisms. The second thing you're looking for is just a bonus: I want to punish opponents for relying on beneficial ETBs. In very fringe cases you might run across a deck with an integral wincon that folds to Torpor Orb, but exists in a shell that is good vs Dreadnought - these decks don't really exist, but they'd need to have heavy removal + SCM + something like Thopter/Sword. You've named a lot of specific decks where we win via Dreadnought, and the opponent also happens to lean on ETB value, but others exist. Dredge of all varieties would draw out Torpor Orb, to include LED Dredge which hardly relies on ETB triggers, simply because the best strategy is to disrupt and hit them with 12/12s. Torpor would outperform a copy of Standstill vs Lands. It would be a high variance choice against decks that can steal Dreadnoughts (Reanimator) or happen to actually also run Dreadnoughts (I have never seen a mirror occur by random chance). There are examples of decks may run Strix + SCM + SFM, but if Dreadnoughts aren't going to be a strategy you'd leave in, then you don't add defensive-only Torpor Orb. Just have a reason to subvert rules towards Dreadnought and Torpor Orb-style cards generally work; the Dreadnought engine is generally disruptive to any differing strategy.

  16. #3716

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Which matchups would you leave out the Dreadnoughts completely?

    I understand that Goyf decks, or decks that play BG (and contain abrupt decay) the big meanie is probably hard to protect. (in the past with UB Dreadstill, I won those matches with tombstalker or the factories) Now I have TNN to help me there. So any B(U)G deck and maybe a couple against Canadian Threshold. I removed 1 Nought against Miracles (together with Dazes). But I could remove more.

    Are there other decks?

  17. #3717
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Which matchups would you leave out the Dreadnoughts completely?

    I understand that Goyf decks, or decks that play BG (and contain abrupt decay) the big meanie is probably hard to protect. (in the past with UB Dreadstill, I won those matches with tombstalker or the factories) Now I have TNN to help me there. So any B(U)G deck and maybe a couple against Canadian Threshold. I removed 1 Nought against Miracles (together with Dazes). But I could remove more.

    Are there other decks?
    Depends how many cards you have coming in, but miracles is the about only deck I usually board out all Dreadnoughts without thinking twice. The only dependable wincon against Counterbalance for any decks that play interactive magic (no CB, Decay, Chalice, Cavern, Vial, Boseju, K-Grip/E. Firecraft) is put CB in the graveyard and ban it out of the game with Surgical (otherwise you have to do something idiotic like mill them out with 4x sideboard Brain Freeze or play a terrible deck with ridiculously high CMCs). Assuming you are able to stop Counterbalance from entering the game [which is unlikely], your next target is Surgical targeting StP (or you play TNNs) - after this point their entire deck (outside of Mentor and Entreat, the only spells left you fight over) is outclassed by your non-Dreadnought threats, especially if you can get two Factory on board to blank SCM flash blocking and trading. Miracles is like any other combo deck, your preferred wincon is invalidating their entire strategy (much like Enchantress which we discussed earlier).

    Outside of miracles, because Stifle and a few other Dreadnought enablers are in the maindeck, you're fine boarding down to 1 or 2 Dreadnought (you still might want a way for these cards to be relevant via goldfishing) - SCM/Plow or discard spam/removal-based strategies generally follow this trend. There is no absolute right or wrong answers here as your boarding strategy should be to predict and undermine the boarding strategy of the opponent; this is where knowing the entire format and being able to see about 3 turns out of an opponent in game 1 and knowing with pretty accurate certainty ~70-73 cards in their list really pays off. Unlike normal decks, a Dreadnought deck is able to revert to totally normal magic or pile on the strange with absolute fluidity. Outside of Counterbalance, the specific enemy deck doesn't matter when asking where do the Dreadnoughts go post-board - know their lists, don't help them out by playing into their preferred interaction & sideboarding strategy, and ask yourself if you're winning via Dreadnought attacks or using Dreadnought just like any other creature to duress removal from hand, putting them in a position that loses to Standstill's CA (done vs decks like maverick which have lower removal counts and no recursion of that removal). If you want a more concrete rule, Dreadnoughts don't move unless you see SCM (or other recursive removal) from opponents.

  18. #3718
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I played mono-blue Dreadstill tonight at FNM to a 3-1 finish, good for $20 store credit. It was absurdly powerful on the play, but struggled on the draw. It's likely because I didn't have forces. I lost to Death and Taxes, close games and it went to 3. I beat another D&T player, aggro loam, and arena rector nic fit.

    Here was my list:

    4x delver
    4x dreadnought
    2x snapcaster
    2x nimble obstructionist
    4x brainstorm
    4x standstill
    4x daze
    4x stifle
    4x vapor snag
    2x dismember
    3x spell pierce
    1x spell snare
    2x Counterspell
    3x scalding tarn
    3x flooded strand
    7x island
    4x wasteland
    3x mishra's factory

    Sideboard
    4x misdirection
    2x echoing truth
    2x ratchet bomb
    2x pithing needle
    2x gragdiggers cage
    2x sower of temptation
    1x dismember

    Fun deck, delver into standstill felt so good. Snapcaster was great, obstructionist was ok. Sideboard needs work. I nabbed a trickbind to include.
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  19. #3719
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I played mono-blue Dreadstill tonight at FNM to a 3-1 finish, good for $20 store credit. It was absurdly powerful on the play, but struggled on the draw. It's likely because I didn't have forces. I lost to Death and Taxes, close games and it went to 3. I beat another D&T player, aggro loam, and arena rector nic fit.

    Here was my list:

    4x delver
    4x dreadnought
    2x snapcaster
    2x nimble obstructionist
    4x brainstorm
    4x standstill
    4x daze
    4x stifle
    4x vapor snag
    2x dismember
    3x spell pierce
    1x spell snare
    2x Counterspell
    3x scalding tarn
    3x flooded strand
    7x island
    4x wasteland
    3x mishra's factory

    Sideboard
    4x misdirection
    2x echoing truth
    2x ratchet bomb
    2x pithing needle
    2x gragdiggers cage
    2x sower of temptation
    1x dismember

    Fun deck, delver into standstill felt so good. Snapcaster was great, obstructionist was ok. Sideboard needs work. I nabbed a trickbind to include.
    I wonder if back to basics would be good in a mono-blue build, maybe not if mishra's factory puts in too much work. I'm working on a blue/white build with Whir of Invention

  20. #3720
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Congrats man...without force you need like 4 Snares on the draw to disrupt a Thalia vs them. I would strait cut The Counterspells they are so lackluster if you lose the die roll. My recommended change would be

    -2 CSpell
    -1 Pierce

    3 Snares

    -2 Nimble
    +2 True Name Nemesis
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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