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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #3861
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Yan View Post
    @Mr.Safety
    I just don’t understand why I would bring it in against Miracles/Grixis control when I’m anyway boarding out Dreadnoughts. If some of you guys are leaving them in and leaning heavily on them in these matchups, I can see why you are having problems against these decks. Against DnT it sure sounds great.

    My point here is that I don’t try to make cards good in matchups that they aren’t good in. I want to side out bad cards and replace them with good ones. I banged my head against a wall for years by trying to make things work that couldn’t. Then I realized that Dreadnought is not the core of the deck; Delver and Standstill is. Noughts are just the spice that give you free wins sometimes
    It's about card efficiency; your Dreadnoughts only cost 1 without a need to resolve a stifle. If they are burning a terminus on 1 dreadnought, that's fine. You can threaten lethal with only 1 threat. Turning off Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix is good against Grixis.

    I also wasn't on TNN, which is really what tips the scales in those matchups for you.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  2. #3862

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It's about card efficiency; your Dreadnoughts only cost 1 without a need to resolve a stifle. If they are burning a terminus on 1 dreadnought, that's fine. You can threaten lethal with only 1 threat. Turning off Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix is good against Grixis.

    I also wasn't on TNN, which is really what tips the scales in those matchups for you.
    You still have to find and resolve the Orb. That’s still two cards. Would you board in the Orb if you didn’t have Dreadnoughts? I think the card is fine, I just don’t think it’s the right way to go if you want to beat miracles and grixis. TNN is good, but that is not the thing that tips the scales; boarding out Dreadnoughts is. It doesn’t really matter which threat you are siding in, as long as you have something (TNN is probably the best option). Also, if you really think that it is TNN that is winning those match ups, why would you have torpor orb in the board instead of it?

  3. #3863
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    You'd be surprised how often I draw the card even in there as a 1-of. I do agree though that you want to be winning control matchups on the back of Delver/Factory/TNN/Standstills...not Dreadnought. Here's there for matchups that you otherwise want to end fairly quickly and effeciently. Control is designed by nature to not fold to strategies like that...you have to break them with pure card advantage and unkillable threats.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  4. #3864

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    you want to be winning control matchups on the back of Delver/Factory/TNN/Standstills...not Dreadnought. Here's there for matchups that you otherwise want to end fairly quickly and effeciently. Control is designed by nature to not fold to strategies like that...you have to break them with pure card advantage and unkillable threats.
    Exactly on point. That’s why I think that it is a bad argument for torpor orb to be good against control decks. Yes, it is okay, but I would still board out most of the Dreadnoughts, if not all.

  5. #3865
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I'd definitely board out the Dreadnoughts vs miracles. If it were UWx Blade, there would be merit to going heavier on the 12/12 plan by siding in the Torpor Orb (or confusing opponent by alternating heavy vs absent Dreadnoughts, based on their boarding strategy). There's little difference between the 'jammy jam' aspect of Blade/Pile/Shardless decks, but among those 3 archetypes I would be less inclined to bring in Torpor Orb against the deck running K-Comm maindeck. Versus Grixis a Torpor in play kinda means you can't ever really afford to fire up a solo Factory (even with Standstill on board). The single best way to beat Grixis Jammy Jam strategies is to bounce a Hymn back at them early; for me those ~4 Misdirection-effects are coming in as the same amount of Dreadnought pieces are coming out.

    Until WotC prints something close to Torpor Orb as a nonbasic that taps for colorless, I don't think you're going to want the 12/12 package post-board vs miracles/Grixis. We're not really getting ahead by here by using Dreadnought to Duress a not-blue resource (which eats our counters, so that opponent gets to now resolve a meaningful, protected wincon). If that effect can be hidden in the manabase, suddenly the opponents need to play into Daze early through mana denial.

  6. #3866
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I run the 4 Noughts but when I board them out I always leave 1 in. Call me crazy but I still like the potential of being able to drop an unsuspecting Dreadnought. I normally board 1-2 Stifles out as well. Makes it easy. But I never bring them all out entirely even against control.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  7. #3867

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Happy international Dreadnought day (12/12) to all the `noughty people out there :)

  8. #3868
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Was able to make it to today's Win-A-Dual [Taiga] at ABU games, and sleeved up the old 12/12. Only 10 decks in the room, so 4 rounds cut to top4. I think there's just not many legacy players here, which is strange given the amount of people that live here. Also will have to get the Salt Lake guys to make a ~5h drive up here for the next one - still last time for a Plateau we got 16, so people must have been out of town.

    Decks in the room: UWr miracles, sans-Shardless BUG (a less winning clone of Grixis Jammy Jams which loses red to play Trophy), UW Helm*, Goblins [Lackey, no Chalice, Thalia board], ANT, UWR Delver, EldraziPost, LeoPrison**, an unknown, and myself.
    *UW Helm list needed some fine tuning and wincon diversity, but otherwise solid deck theory.
    **LeoPrison: I would classify the deck under this category even though there was no Leo/Cephalid/Last Hope, interaction was largely discard rather than building the deck towards FoW (they used Thoughtseize full of IoK), and some card availability issues in the manabase. The TurboDepths stuff was there [Hexmage, but no ESG nor Confidant], but there was also a Loam and some blue cards.

    R1 vs ANT (2-0): Game 1 opponent is a little stuck on lands, and after the match it sounds like the issue here was not finding the Tutor (artifact mana in hand). Game 2 is pretty sweet, we're both doing our thing and opponent decides to go for it once Delver gets him down around ~10 life. Petal resolves, LED resolves, Dark Ritx2 resolves -> Duress, respond with Expansion // Explosion to copy -> they Brainstorm -> I'm losing my FoW to their Duress anyway so FoW that Bstorm -> my copy of Duress takes IT and leaves them with another Duress in hand. It is really hard to find the right wording to bounce a Duress back at the caster [neither Misdirection nor Divert work], but it truly is a thing of beauty which I highly recommend.

    R2 vs LeoPrison (1-2): Game 1 they have a fast and resilient hand with discard, but between my unflipping Delver and their Thoughtseizes they're at 13 by turn 3. They do the Urborg/Hexmage/Depths thing -> I flip Delver finally, drop a Factory and a Dreadnought -> they have a Crop Rot for Sejiri Steppe which allows them to attack. Game 2 they have another fairly god hand with discard and the combo, I still make the turn 2 Dreadnought and after 1 swing they combo off into a Stifle and lose to swing #2. Game 3 is a thinker for both sides which turns into a long game. There are some interesting things going on here with his Fetch locked under a Stifle early, into I can't topdeck a creature for the entire game, into he decided to Loam ~3x in a row (which may not have been as good as taking natural draws; it's hard to say only from my side). Once things come to a point he goes to copy my Wasteland -> I fizzle by targeting Depths -> he Crop Rotates -> I Surgical Depths. The game becomes a silly copy Factory game and opponent is able to win with 1 life left. Game three was easily the best and most interesting game of the day vs a competent opponent who demonstrated mastery of Factory etiquette (this is actually a fairly rare quality in legacy).

    R3 vs UWr miracles (opponent scoops b/c they're paired up with no chance to top8, their record 0-1-1 going in): We played a game 1 which they narrowly won, but it was a scoop win so doesn't really count.

    R4 vs EldraziPost: Game 1 the room is small enough that I know what they're up to but I'm not throwing away a perfectly good 7; even with Chalice on 1, they take me down to 1 life but it sill comes down to not drawing the Factory [or Trickbind to push through a Bolt]. This would have been lethal, but I can only swing for 6 vs their 7 life [2x SCM + Factory]; I decide to bluff Dreadnought & playing into Warping Wail by casting Delver face-down and holding back the second SCM and Factory back on blocks vs on-board Smasher & TKS (again this puts them to 5, but I could only do 4 more). Game 2 their turn 1 Chalice is removed by Abrade -> Delver and Lavamancer come down followed quickly by Dreadnought -> they topdeck Bridge vs facing lethal -> they have been too heavily Wastelanded to cast their spells and Delver swings + Lavaman activations get there. Game 3 Delver and Lavaman are putting in work and Bolt + Lavaman activation take down a Smasher before they pop Ratchet Bomb for 1 -> they blow a Wasteland on my Wasteland and pretty soon it's Matter Reshaper and late Chalice [x=1] while I'm dropping 3 Factories in a row -> their Reshaper is forced to block a 4/4 Factory and they rip over Ratchet Bomb #2 which notably is not Powder Keg and the Factories take it down about 2 turns later.

    After my game I'm watching LeoPrison vs sans-Shardless BUG up at table 1 and love watching Stage copy Depths on the stack -> Trophy the Depths before copy resolves punt -> topdeck Depths #2, do the thing again -> had the Bitterblossom in hand and doesn't get another turn to hide behind the token it's never going to get to make. I really can't tell you how happy it makes me to watch a Hymn deck not make the cut.

    Top 4 is LeoPrison[1] vs EldraziPost[4] and Dreadstill[2] vs Goblins[3]. By the time we're done shuffling EldraziPost is already down a game, and lose a second within another 2 minutes. Game 1 I have to mull and end up losing. Game 2 their turn to mull but my opener has Daze, not Force, for their Vial and so Standstill doesn't happen. I think the Goblins matchup is probably fine, and it's Goblins which I see like once every 2 years.

    Anyways I wish him the best of luck in the finals after joking about whether or not he's sure he really wants to fight the Marit Lage deck. He gets murdered game 1 with like a Cavern on board. Game 2 he as the Stingscourger naturally in hand and Goblin Cratermaker is threatening the Needle on Wasteland thus our Goblin hero goes on to bounce the [forced-move] Lage and win. Game 3 LeoPrison's hand must have been missing something b/c Goblins gets time to do the Matron/Lackey stuff and take home the Taiga!

    ..and this is why you should all see Dreadstill and Goblins on mtgtop8 in a few days, so Merry Christmas! (watch them only post the top 2, now that I've said that)
    Be forewarned, my list had an Illusionary Mask in it - so buy yours now, because you just really can't know whether or not a 10 player tournament with an atypical RL card will spark some absurd buyout. I'm still not sure why Dreadnought spiked from $15 to $45 from Dominaria until now...

  9. #3869
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Well Ravnica Allegiance has been spoiled and looks pretty poor. The only card close to playable for us is Electrodominance, which still reads "need 4 mana to instant-speed a Dreadnought" and already a price tag of around $10. I doubt it'd ever be wise to play RUG Dreadnought, but Cindervines would be playable (and is indeed RUG Delver playable, proactive CB hate w/ upside), but also overpriced around $5.

    Near miss: Final Payment - really more of a Death's Shadow card, but additional cost of sac Standstill means opponents will not draw 3 which is certainly interesting from a mechanics subversion standpoint. Colors all wrong on this card, but a playset is around $1. Let us not forget Hatching Plans, which turns this into a 3c bad idea - and that's all you really need for modern to jump up prices (Hatching Plans currently under $1...something to think about). One other [Dreadnought-ish] card which maybe sees a bump thanks to this set would be Managorger Hydra, due to all the Simic stuff.

    Overpriced but interesting creative design: Priest of Forgotten Gods not completely opposed to Dreadnought, but not worth the $3 per copy (maybe $1, maybe).

    UG Nought still hasn't gotten the cards it needs to be a viable deck, but there were two interesting printings:
    -Growth Spiral which can do things as a pseudo-cantrip that plays quite well with knowing the top of your deck (ex. Brainstorm/Mirri's Guile + manifest mechanic); I really like that it's instant. This card definitely makes it easier to run Daze in a relatively mana hungry strat. Doubt there's much value currently in combining Spiral with Quirion Ranger.
    -Incubation // Incongruity This card is probably worse than Reality Shift (both kill Lage w/ instant speed, but Reality Shift has more text vs self), but it does have that split side which 'man-trips' through the top 5, so it has some differing functionality.

    Will double check once set goes up on gatherer to make sure "full" spoiler was indeed the full list.

    Repudiate // Replicate is unfortunately the wrong colors for using the Replicate side to clone Factory (not Standstill colors), also it's way overpriced ($8).

    Edit: Repudiate // Repicate looks to have a lower presale cost ~$2.5 and Cindervines ~$2.5 as well.
    Last edited by Fox; 01-16-2019 at 07:21 PM.

  10. #3870
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Tournament results ABU games Win-a Dual [Savannah] in Boise, ID:
    10 players: LED Dredge, Grixis Jammy Jams, UW B2B miracles, UW Helm, R/G Lands, Elves!, Zombardment, OmniTell (mono-U, maybe UB; unsure), UB Shadow, and me on the usual Dreadstill list. Only change I make is -1 Magical Hack effect, +1 Sulfur Elemental in SB.

    Round 1 vs Elves! (2-0): Game 1 I'm on the play and Bolt their Sentinel, play turn 2 Illusionary Mask with Dreadnought/Stifle in hand -> Opponent plays some guys and passes -> face-down Dreadnought, pass -> Daze their GSZ for 2 -> hit for 12 over next two turns with Stifle up at all times for possible Rec Sage. Game 2 they play Fetch, pass -> I play Lavamancer, they fetch Arbor -> turn 2 Decay -> next ~2 turns happen with Bolt Arbor, then Bolt a Quirion, then Wasteland their Bayou leaving them on basic Forest -> Stifle in a Dreadnought, opponent only drawing Heritage Druids.

    Round 2 vs UW B2B miracles (1-1-1): Game 1 Counterbalance. Game 2 no Counterbalance. Game 3 goes to time, and as a policy I don't scoop to decks using the most ban'able card in the format: CB.

    Round 3 vs Zombardment (2-1): All three games are basically who can burn out who first (with combat damage), lots of interesting lines of play and timings with their Ghast triggers and Entomb for the singleton Bridge from Below (the correct build - props to opponent). Sulfur Elemental put in some work here against Lingering Souls; all three games ended with the winner at like 1-5 life it seemed like. From a mechanics standpoint, playtesting this matchup to increase nuanced proficiency is high-yield for both sides

    Round 4 vs R/G Lands (2-0): I find enough Wastelands and then Stifles to keep them from doing the Marit Lage -> Loam -> Manabond thing while Delver gets there. Game 2 is looking pretty bad after their turn 1 Exploration and lots of GQs vs my opener that had a basic in it. I'm stuggling for mana the whole game, but opponent hasn't found a Loam (it's more a matter of the 3x GQs and Wasteland - right before they blow my mana base up with these, I did manage to get down a TNN which died to they play Tabby & blow up my 3 lands. Game goes on for a bit until I'm able to assemble Fetch + Wasteland and make a Dreadnought, the opponent [from hellbent] topdecks Choke and then a Tireless Tracker so the game ends as I'm able to keep Dreadnought alive with Wasteland mana vs Tabby.

    Top 4 where most points goes first: Dreadstill (#1) vs UW B2B miracles (#4) and Zombardment vs UB Shadow (#2+3). First player determined by points.

    Semifinals 2-0: Turn 1 Delver -> they walk CB and then B2B into back to back Daze; after each Daze was a Standstill. Game 2 they go to hellbent in large part due to their 2x B2B and 2x Mentor (which can't race my Delver) in play vs my three basics -> they nearly won b/c CB resolved 1 turn before I found REB, but it will miss two blind flips and show me an EE on top which means REB actually gets to kill a resolved CB; thus they lose....to Chandra +1 burning down to 3 life, then +1 flip Expansion // Explosion with 8 mana on board vs hellbent -> take 4, draw 4, check SBAs and we're into the finals.

    Finals vs UB Shadow: Lose game one due to a bottleneck on red mana with lethal burn spell in hand. Game 2 double Delver hand and they will lose to that plus some burn in hand vs their paying life strategy. Game 3 they take it slow on life loss but play a turn 2 Bitterblossom vs Delver -> flip Delver and attack, Mishra's + Standstill -> they are deterministically dead on board unless they crack, so they play Shadow (4/4) alongside their 2x faerie tokens, I EoT no-value SCM -> attack with Delver and SCM, complete trades as I Bolt Shadow (after blocking SCM) and Stifle their Fetch leaving it as a 5/5 only -> they will find Last Hope but I get to second Factory and it's chumping only as the Factories are going for life total (life too low to capitalize on Lilly -2 vs Bitterblossom) -> they run out of life.

    +1 Savannah.

    Very lucky to beat Counterbalance (plus the other 56-58 cards without text) and lucky to get 2x pseudo-mirror matches. I consider DS to be the same thing, just more linear with less play. Elves is pseudo-mirror in the sense that we are two halves of Stasis (one doesn't need an untap step, the other can abuse it's absence with phasing) where either side does the Dreadnought thing - making just one Dreadnought or making an army of little Dreadnoughts. All not-CB opponents played exceptionally well and were fun sit across from. I definitely had 1 misplay (missed Factory attack in the finals), but from my side I didn't observe a single punt from said opponents. Really disheartening to see Counterbalance make top 4 after choosing to Jace-brainstorm into a thoroughly described Chains of Mephistopheles (judge and all) while having resolved EE on 2 with mana; that mistake, followed by a highly dubious no-shuffle Ponder [vs Zombardment], did at least cost him that match right before the finals (lead to #4 seed, always on the draw in top4). It's really unfortunate when the absurd power level of clearly ban'able cards [Hymn and CB] keep rewarding loose play with deep tournament runs.

    All cards in SB found use, but really don't like submitting a list without Teferi's Realm. I really like having Sulfur Elemental in the board vs miracles (even though it's mostly for DnT), it's quite good vs Mentor (allows me to keep pointing burn upstairs). Only Expansion hits were copy CJ -> bye Jace and copy StP -> bye Mentor. Sadly I didn't get to copy anything fun today like Loam, discard, or Reanimate. They didn't post last win-a-dual to mtgtop8, so don't know if they will or not this time. Anyways, if you're serious about Dreadnought, now's a good time to get your Illusionary Mask before some someone decides it's the next best buyout b/c they saw it on mtgtop8.

  11. #3871

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Why not play the new Pteramander drake ?

    You can copy it with Lazav, adapt the Lazav-Pteramander, and you got 4 +1/+1 counters on Lazav

    Nope ?

  12. #3872
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by grokh View Post
    Why not play the new Pteramander drake ?

    You can copy it with Lazav, adapt the Lazav-Pteramander, and you got 4 +1/+1 counters on Lazav

    Nope ?
    Unsure if this is a troll comment or not. Anyways, there is no room in these decks to run honest [and underpowered] cards on top of the needing to accommodate Dreadnought itself. Lazav has a number of issues that make it unplayable (Surgical in every sideboard, just worse than Confidant or flip-Jace, less useful than colorless 2 mana enablers, less high-end power than Volrath's Shapeshifter), but I can at least understand the desire to try it out.

    Pteramander however is plagued with issues:
    1-Gurmag, Tombstalker, Cryptic Serpent, Bedlam Reveler (you're playing Lazav, but any of these are still more powerful even though you can't do the copy thing)
    2-Managorger Hydra (cutting pretty much everything and rebuilding a deck around this guy perhaps without any Dreadnought/Lazav stuff)
    3-Nimble Mongoose (you're probably playing Entomb-ish style cards, so just cut Goose + Lazav and sleeve up Grisel)
    4-Jace's Phantasm - this is just strictly better; and it's still borderline unplayable. The difference here is that as dubious as the strategy would be, Lazav is UB and so is mill, and maybe you make up for these shenanigans with Visions of Beyond. This deck idea has a key problem when adding in Dreadnought stuff: no matter how amazing Vision Charm is with the whole double duty mill & Dreadnought, you are running out of slots and have two disparate paths to victory without overlap (damage vs mill). Going in two directions at the same time is a great way to lose games to internal inconsistency.

    So here's the mill deck: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20444&d=333977&f=LE - let's spend a little time trying to jam Dreadnought/Lazav into here:

    warp manabase: -2 Fetch, -2 Island, +4 Wasteland

    -4 Hedron Crab (going mana denial over +2 Fetch)
    -4 Archive Trap (this card is kind like the the beating heart of the mill deck, but it can't be used on self for Lazav)
    -4 Surgical Extraction
    -2 E. Bridge

    For the sake of simplicity, rather than final tuning:
    +4 Vision Charm
    +4 Stifle
    +4 Phantasm
    +2 Dreadnought (milling acts as tutoring, allowing this low slot investment)

    So now you're out of slots, and have no plan vs Chalice and no great ways to deal with Strix (Vision Charm does have a little text there with the whole trample thing). Your deck needs space made for Lazav (this is your only real anti-Chalice plan), and given the loss of Archive Trap you probably want access to flip-Jace (mill emblem, anti-Strix, recast Glimpse & others, discard outlet for Lazav). Where are your ~4+ other cuts for Lazav/flip-Jace? Do you revert to Daze deck without mana denial? Why no Gurmag/Tombstalker? Can you still reliably mill people out?

    I use the mill example here because I don't think there is any other deck idea that maximizes the combo/power-potential Lazav has which also has the necessary synergistic CA engine (Visions of Beyond). The issue is that mill is rather opposed to a dude plan. Note also the need for either strategy to have a card with dual modality that does not yet exist (removal and engine modes). Another thing you'd probably have to see is a 0 to 2cmc blue or UB guy printed which had Altar of Dementia printed on it.

  13. #3873
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I consider DS to be the same thing, just more linear with less play. Elves is pseudo-mirror in the sense that we are two halves of Stasis (one doesn't need an untap step, the other can abuse it's absence with phasing) where either side does the Dreadnought thing - making just one Dreadnought or making an army of little Dreadnoughts.
    Fox, you always have the most original perspectives (and decks). Congrats on winning with the Mask!

  14. #3874
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Once I get my Pteramanders/TNN's (they are in the mail) I'm going to test this list:


    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x True-Name Nemesis
    2x Pteramander
    4x Standstill
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Vapor Snag
    1x Torpor Orb
    1x Dismember

    4x Wasteland
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Polluted Delta
    1x Scalding Tarn
    5x Island
    4x Mishra’s Factory

    Sideboard
    2x Sower of Temptation
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Tormod's Crypt
    2x Misdirection
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    2x Echoing Truth
    2x Dismember
    2x Ratchet Bomb


    Sidboard is a little bit of a mess, but it's been a while since I piloted this deck. I have my set of Forces now, which is pretty exciting. TNN is needed for the control matchups, not sure if 2 or 3 is correct in the maindeck. I want to try Pteramander, it's basically Delver 5 + 6 with potential upside mid-game. If it ends up being crap I'll have to figure out something different for threats. Maindeck Orb means Snap/VClique are likely not going to be good.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  15. #3875
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Played a 3-rounder back in Portland last Thursday; there were about 14 decks present.

    -Round 1 vs UW miracles (2-1): Game 1 they never have CB, but I never draw a single piece of countermagic. Game 2&3, they can't stick CBs.
    -Round 2 vs Infect (2-1): They get game 1; guessed wrong tapping down Factories for Pierce vs Glistener (getting targeting by kill spell on my turn); they also had Daze and last card is pump spell and I was already at 5 poison. With 0 to 2 poison counters I probably don't tap down b/c I'd be less scared of pump spell + Berserk in hand. Game 2 and 3 they get overwhelmed by Delver/Factory, red spells and some Standstills.
    -Round 3 vs ANT (2-1): Pretty normal stuff happening; in Game 3 Duress gets bounced back by Expansion // Explosion and their hand crumbles on the turn they went for it.

    ------

    Decided to spend an evening perusing the scriptures [the first 100 pages of this thread], which covers ~early 2008-late 2009. Found an old video that shows a relatively stock idea of what was going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckDFiQA14eQ.

    Really interesting to see that 4x Dreadnought, 4x Factory, 2-3x Trinket Mage was enough to compete in the format; but less surprising when you see CB/SDT being used to cheese out wins like it does. It was a different age (no Delver), but I can see how this now-dubious threat structure (without any sources of spell damage) was uniquely weak to Decay. The deck today operates nothing like the old one, but this seems to explain the blanket statement you'll often get of "that deck is bad because Decay."

    Among the more surprising things is the deck designs of classic Dreadstill (Ur, Ug, Ugr, etc) never led to [as far as I can tell] a burn/tempo variant more closely resembling today's builds - this seems to be due to Tarmogoyf destroying creative space of Goose/Grim + Bolt?? Less surprising is how this threat-light, slower construction led to a need for yard hate, which we don't really need anymore (certainly not 3 slots of completely dedicated yard hate like Crypt and Relic). Trinket, which seems unplayable today, helped to explain the amount of cards that didn't help the deck win (Needle and EE primarily) since you were apparently trying to sit back and lock the out with CB rather than needing to be proactive. The sideboard was mostly ok-ish playables by today's standards, but there was a noticeable chunk of cards that rapidly evolved: Chill -> Annul/Threads of Disloyalty -> Submerge/Bolt (note that Bolt was in the board, and rare to be in the 75 at all until later in '09).

    As alluded to earlier Dreadstill is being played in many color combinations; if white = StP/O-Ring, if black= Confidant/Seize, if green = K-Grip/Goyf, if red + green = Firespouts. By page 100 we begin to see the deck (and probably the format) coalesce around Goyf [and Submerge]. Not too surprising to see Goyf up there in the B/R thread poll due to the diversity killing; even as bad as Goyf is with Standstill (wrong cmc, sorcery speed), these versions [3-4 Goyf, 3-4 Dreadnought, 2-3 Trinket, 4 Factory] begin to dominate the discussion - almost certainly b/c you can't beat 'em unless you join em.

    My impression up to this point is that Goyf merely existing increasingly required its incorporation, which locked the deck into poorer deck construction [looking through the 2019 lens]. Goyf paired with Counterbalance (rather obtuse, but so wildly overpowered that you couldn't pass it up) probably hinders significant creativity until late 2011 (Snapcaster printed; Surgical earlier in that same year). I haven't read ahead yet, but I imagine Snapcaster will drive the deck away from Goyf towards white (StP/SCM; this would be an improvement) until we enter 2012 where WotC prints a better CB/SDT deck (Terminus/Entreat) and then Decay makes CB + not enough threats [i.e. poor construction by 2019 lens] unplayable. I imagine Confidant has some role to play, but having a tough time theory-crafting where it could have became a dominant Dreadstill playable...I think probably between Terminus/Entreat's printing and Decay, because you'd be tired of playing the worse half in a CB-mirror, but would have access to SCM/StP [for Goyf]...such that you drop Counterbalance, maybe....

    Starting out this interesting journey back to a legacy long before I began [~Khans, late 2014], I have been surprised that classic Dreadstill is so profoundly different than current iterations, where we're more focused on counting to 20 (or another unified objective). The classic got so many of the pieces right (Factory/Standstill/Bstorm/FoW/Daze/Stifle/Dreadnought), but like what the heck was going on with this sideshow of SDT/CB/Trinket Mage/reactive-only Trinket targets? Question for you @Rood and the old guard: I get the incentive to cheese wins off CB (since the card has always needed to be banned), but why no focus on building Dreadstill towards the current iterations [i.e. using 1-drop threats and Bolt]? Is the answer to that question simply Goyf rampaging through the format?

    The more important questions @Rood is what exactly was Team Hammafist, and also our deck apparently has a theme song?? On an unrelated note, K-Grip all over the format...really???

  16. #3876
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Played a 3-rounder back in Portland last Thursday; there were about 14 decks present.

    -Round 1 vs UW miracles (2-1): Game 1 they never have CB, but I never draw a single piece of countermagic. Game 2&3, they can't stick CBs.
    -Round 2 vs Infect (2-1): They get game 1; guessed wrong tapping down Factories for Pierce vs Glistener (getting targeting by kill spell on my turn); they also had Daze and last card is pump spell and I was already at 5 poison. With 0 to 2 poison counters I probably don't tap down b/c I'd be less scared of pump spell + Berserk in hand. Game 2 and 3 they get overwhelmed by Delver/Factory, red spells and some Standstills.
    -Round 3 vs ANT (2-1): Pretty normal stuff happening; in Game 3 Duress gets bounced back by Expansion // Explosion and their hand crumbles on the turn they went for it.

    ------

    Decided to spend an evening perusing the scriptures [the first 100 pages of this thread], which covers ~early 2008-late 2009. Found an old video that shows a relatively stock idea of what was going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckDFiQA14eQ.

    Really interesting to see that 4x Dreadnought, 4x Factory, 2-3x Trinket Mage was enough to compete in the format; but less surprising when you see CB/SDT being used to cheese out wins like it does. It was a different age (no Delver), but I can see how this now-dubious threat structure (without any sources of spell damage) was uniquely weak to Decay. The deck today operates nothing like the old one, but this seems to explain the blanket statement you'll often get of "that deck is bad because Decay."

    Among the more surprising things is the deck designs of classic Dreadstill (Ur, Ug, Ugr, etc) never led to [as far as I can tell] a burn/tempo variant more closely resembling today's builds - this seems to be due to Tarmogoyf destroying creative space of Goose/Grim + Bolt?? Less surprising is how this threat-light, slower construction led to a need for yard hate, which we don't really need anymore (certainly not 3 slots of completely dedicated yard hate like Crypt and Relic). Trinket, which seems unplayable today, helped to explain the amount of cards that didn't help the deck win (Needle and EE primarily) since you were apparently trying to sit back and lock the out with CB rather than needing to be proactive. The sideboard was mostly ok-ish playables by today's standards, but there was a noticeable chunk of cards that rapidly evolved: Chill -> Annul/Threads of Disloyalty -> Submerge/Bolt (note that Bolt was in the board, and rare to be in the 75 at all until later in '09).

    As alluded to earlier Dreadstill is being played in many color combinations; if white = StP/O-Ring, if black= Confidant/Seize, if green = K-Grip/Goyf, if red + green = Firespouts. By page 100 we begin to see the deck (and probably the format) coalesce around Goyf [and Submerge]. Not too surprising to see Goyf up there in the B/R thread poll due to the diversity killing; even as bad as Goyf is with Standstill (wrong cmc, sorcery speed), these versions [3-4 Goyf, 3-4 Dreadnought, 2-3 Trinket, 4 Factory] begin to dominate the discussion - almost certainly b/c you can't beat 'em unless you join em.

    My impression up to this point is that Goyf merely existing increasingly required its incorporation, which locked the deck into poorer deck construction [looking through the 2019 lens]. Goyf paired with Counterbalance (rather obtuse, but so wildly overpowered that you couldn't pass it up) probably hinders significant creativity until late 2011 (Snapcaster printed; Surgical earlier in that same year). I haven't read ahead yet, but I imagine Snapcaster will drive the deck away from Goyf towards white (StP/SCM; this would be an improvement) until we enter 2012 where WotC prints a better CB/SDT deck (Terminus/Entreat) and then Decay makes CB + not enough threats [i.e. poor construction by 2019 lens] unplayable. I imagine Confidant has some role to play, but having a tough time theory-crafting where it could have became a dominant Dreadstill playable...I think probably between Terminus/Entreat's printing and Decay, because you'd be tired of playing the worse half in a CB-mirror, but would have access to SCM/StP [for Goyf]...such that you drop Counterbalance, maybe....

    Starting out this interesting journey back to a legacy long before I began [~Khans, late 2014], I have been surprised that classic Dreadstill is so profoundly different than current iterations, where we're more focused on counting to 20 (or another unified objective). The classic got so many of the pieces right (Factory/Standstill/Bstorm/FoW/Daze/Stifle/Dreadnought), but like what the heck was going on with this sideshow of SDT/CB/Trinket Mage/reactive-only Trinket targets? Question for you @Rood and the old guard: I get the incentive to cheese wins off CB (since the card has always needed to be banned), but why no focus on building Dreadstill towards the current iterations [i.e. using 1-drop threats and Bolt]? Is the answer to that question simply Goyf rampaging through the format?

    The more important questions @Rood is what exactly was Team Hammafist, and also our deck apparently has a theme song?? On an unrelated note, K-Grip all over the format...really???
    Have you ever cast the Explosion side? Seems a little greedy.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Have you ever cast the Explosion side? Seems a little greedy.
    Yes, versus miracles to kick them out of the top4 I wrote about a few posts back: +1 Chandra -> reveal and kick them out of the game for x=4. Explosion is just a bonus mode that gives some insurance vs flooding out vs slow decks. Expansion's specific wording is good enough to get in the board; plenty of cards to bounce back [gain of function: discard], and with people playing nonsense like AK the card gains more text. Tagging on a burn option to with built-in CA is just icing on the cake.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Cool. I was debating sideboarding Jaces in my mono-blue list for Miracles/Grixis control. Standstill into TNN or Jace seems very, very good. How do you feel about Piracy Charm in mono-blue? I have a couple of flex slots, currently trying to figure out if I want a 3rd TNN or work in some number of Spell Snare or Piracy Charm. Islandwalk is surprisingly relevant, giving a little reach to TNN/Delver/Factory, and the extra mini-removal is quite good. Bolt it is not, but I thought it might be worth a slot. Curious if you've tried it.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    We have pretty different styles @Mr.Safety and you're talking about mono-U. With that in mind...I don't like Dismember, Vapor Snag (bounce their dude, play Standstill...so I used 2 cards to draw 3 seems not great), and Thin Lizzy [Pteramander] - this one I get that you can play before a Standstill, but I feel like it loses the race to any other 1 or 2-drop. My priority on mono-U would be to do something different rather than playing normal magic with worse individual cards; so I'd probably be starting with Dreadnought and Thing in the Ice maximizing Illusionary Mask's potential (ramp up power at the cost of consistency), and then going towards JVP (on top of all it does, JVP's +1 can stop Strix, if combined with Illusionary Mask ignores Bridge, etc...). I find that focusing on interconnected synergy among all pieces while engineering a critical mass of fringe interactions is a generally more winning (and intellectually rewarding) approach. Decks with strong (i.e. linear/boring/powerful) pieces are often poorly equipped vs opponents who actively try to subvert gameplay away from normal.

    When I see a card like Vapor Snag, all it really says to me is that you're going to hose Marit Lage specifically, and maybe harass some delve creatures. Using Snag defensively isn't usually great when you return a Dreadnought or flipped-Delver. So as narrow as Piracy Charm is, my playstyle would be more inclined to run it over Snag. The islandwalk mode really only matters vs double Strix (or a truly careless opponent unknowingly exposing a walker to combat dmg removal). The +2/-1 mode deals with single Strix and also kills basically all delve threats (turn Delver into 5/1, blocking Factory into 5/2 and trade). The backup mode of discard is blindly effective against most any opposing strategy.

    I've never run Piracy Charm, but it is more likely to solve a novel problem whereas Snag pretty much only means a card that's way better than anything you can do is going to be the same insurmountable problem, just 1 turn later. Just be sure to keep it in the back of your mind that DRS was the wrong ban (should have been Hymn), and should he return, both Thin Lizzy and Piracy Charm become immediately unplayable. (I'm also not a big fan of sinking effort into ideas that are built for legacy where Hymn/CB are legal, but somehow DRS/SDT aren't; I build and test for legacy as it should be)

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Hmmm, interesting perspective. As a side note, I've never thought Hymn to Tourach as a bannable card, lol. As much as I love Deathrite Shaman I can admit that it homogenized the format to an unhealthy level, similar to Mental Misstep. Counterbalance is annoying and potentially too good, but without SDT I don't think so. I'm surprised nobody has re-built CounterTopThopters (minus Top of course) because the Enlightened Tutor synergy with Counterbalance is huge.

    In my limited experience with the deck I tend to agree with Vapor Snag somewhat. It's definitely conditional as you say, amazing against Delve threats and Marit Lage but poor/temporary against anything that relies on critical mass like Death and Taxes. Dismember is better but has a steeper opportunity cost. Piracy Charm is unconditional but weaker. Islandwalk isn't there for fair combat matchups it's to dodge True-Name and Griselbrand. All of this is an attempt to compensate for a lack of a splash color. No splash color means more stable mana but at the cost of card availability.

    The funny thing is that the deck plays out almost exactly the same as yours with the exception of having effective early removal (Bolts.) Counterspell/Delver/Factory into Standstill or early Dreadnought is still the plan. I almost never use Snag defensively, it just isn't worth it in most cases. It's a card that pushes races in my favor and allows the glut of countermagic to be slightly more effective. My main plan is counter shit and combo or ride the tempo train with Delver. I think it's a good strategy in a combo-heavy metagame and when Abrupt Decay isn't being played in big numbers.

    Thing in the Ice is interesting but I don't like it in a reactive deck (which this is for sure.) Standstill would need to be swapped with Ponder immediately and the lack of Gitaxian Probe makes it questionable as a reliable strategy in key early turns (board wipe + 7/8 monster.)

    I don't build and play legacy as it should be, I build and play legacy as it is, lol. Within my own limitations of course, but those are getting smaller as I work towards specific goals (dual lands to allow for deck diversity.)
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