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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #3881
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Vapor Snag is pretty OK but I have to disagree on Dismember. Cards been really crazy for me and single handedly beats Death Shadow and other matchups by itself. Im currently at 3 in my SB and Im not sure that the 4 playset might just be correct. I think Echoing Truth might be worth playing over Snag maybe? Deals with Lands combo and Stax. IDK, just a thought.

    Edit: Drake definitely deserves testing in this deck. I think it could be VERY strong. We have to test it and see. Seems crazy under a Standstill.
    UR Dreadstill and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
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    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
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    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  2. #3882
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Gilded Drake? Not sure what Standstill interaction you are mentioning. I've used Nimble Obstructionist while under a Standstill, and that is pretty cool. If it were more resilient I would still be playing it over TNN. I still haven't tested Pteramander, but I think it will likely not make the cut. TNN, and probably even StifleBird, are better. For big creature decks I've been using Sower of Temptation. It's absurd against Show and Tell and Big Eldrazi and decent against slower decks in general (immune to Abrupt Decay, swings games, and at a minimum is a net tempo gain.)

    Dismember for me is hit/miss. I've waffled between the main/side but with always 3 copies available. It's just too important against some threats (Gurmag, Eldrazi.) If it were not for testing Piracy Charm I would have 2 Dismember main, 1 side. I still might do that and cut another Vapor Snag for the Charm (playing 3 currently.) The spells I'm struggling to find the right number on are those and Spell Pierce/Spell Snare. I feel that Snare is very good, possibly worth 2 slots maindeck, but only at the expense of Spell Pierce. I'm not sure which is correct or whether I should split them 2/2 and trim back on the removal. I think I want 6 removal maindeck (2-3 Dismember, 2-3 Snag, X Piracy Charm if it works well enough.)

    I have always had 2x Echoing Truth in my sideboard, never regretted it. I also board Ratchet Bomb x2 for Chalice, Empty tokens, and Death and Taxes.

    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x True Name Nemesis
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Standstill
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    3x Vapor Snag
    2x Dismember
    1x Piracy Charm
    2x Spell Pierce
    1x Torpor Orb
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Scalding Tarn
    6x Island
    4x Wasteland
    4x Mishra’s Factory

    Sideboard
    2x Sower of Temptation
    2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2x Blue Elemental Blast (Flusterstorm when I get them...)
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Dismember
    2x Echoing Truth
    2x Phyrexian Revoker
    2x Surgical Extraction


    So, where to squeeze in Spell Snare? I think Vapor Snag would be better with Snapcaster Mage as well, but again I think TNN is likely the correct choice. I like that Snapcaster makes the soft spells (Stifle, Snag, Charm) a little more effective by doubling up but I'm not sure its worth the drop in offensive power.
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  3. #3883
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    The thing about Hymn is that (unless you're doing something fundamentally different like Elves, or low to the ground like Delver), your DRS use [mana-ramp] will never work because you have no hand [Hymn], and everything else you could do loses to Shatter/Shock [K-comm] - then SCM reinforces this. As long as Hymn is legal, most any deck using DRS is just playing a crappy version of Czech Pile - Hymn is main player in reducing competitive DRS usage to 1 [non-Elves types, non-Delver types] deck.

    *As true as all that is about Hymn + DRS in a format, they both get to be legal without causing any problems if we banned Fetchlands (and reprinted Duals). Not exactly realistic, but that Fetches are ever the 800 pound gorilla in legacy.
    ---

    Back to the Dreadnought stuff: with Piracy Charm I just fly over TNN or trample through him, but it definitely helps Factory connect. I haven't seen much real Reanimator [UBx] in a long time sadly, but islandwalk would definitely work there.

    On mono-U vs UR: they're actually fairly different b/c UR is a deck that can make a 12/12, not one that has to. This is because all the proactive pieces (creatures/Bolts) are pointed at opponent's life total. Mono-U has the same countermagic/mana denial/Standstill plan, but the other pieces you're drawing as the game progresses lack a unified plan (because color restrictions). This is all fine, it's just that with Bolt you need 0-1 shots with Dreadnought, whereas non-Bolt builds require 1-2 shots.

    My last 9 matches (8-0-1) here's a quick overview of how they went:
    vs Elves: Dreadnought x2
    vs miracles: Dreadnought x0
    vs Zombardment: Dreadnought x0
    vs R/G lands: Dreadnought x1
    vs miracles: Dreadnought x0
    vs DS: Dreadnought x0
    vs miracles: Dreadnought x0
    vs Infect: Dreadnought x0
    vs ANT: Dreadnought x0
    Total Dreadnoughts killed [on stack or on-board]: 0

    There was significant stat contamination by Counterbalance (Dreadnoughts boarded to 0-1 copies), but it's fairly rare for UR to need to commit a Dreadnought to the board - this is likely very different vs your deck (whether or not a similar sample size is selected for 0 losses).

  4. #3884
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The thing about Hymn is that (unless you're doing something fundamentally different like Elves, or low to the ground like Delver), your DRS use [mana-ramp] will never work because you have no hand [Hymn], and everything else you could do loses to Shatter/Shock [K-comm] - then SCM reinforces this. As long as Hymn is legal, most any deck using DRS is just playing a crappy version of Czech Pile - Hymn is main player in reducing competitive DRS usage to 1 [non-Elves types, non-Delver types] deck.

    *As true as all that is about Hymn + DRS in a format, they both get to be legal without causing any problems if we banned Fetchlands (and reprinted Duals). Not exactly realistic, but that Fetches are ever the 800 pound gorilla in legacy.
    ---

    Back to the Dreadnought stuff: with Piracy Charm I just fly over TNN or trample through him, but it definitely helps Factory connect. I haven't seen much real Reanimator [UBx] in a long time sadly, but islandwalk would definitely work there.

    On mono-U vs UR: they're actually fairly different b/c UR is a deck that can make a 12/12, not one that has to. This is because all the proactive pieces (creatures/Bolts) are pointed at opponent's life total. Mono-U has the same countermagic/mana denial/Standstill plan, but the other pieces you're drawing as the game progresses lack a unified plan (because color restrictions). This is all fine, it's just that with Bolt you need 0-1 shots with Dreadnought, whereas non-Bolt builds require 1-2 shots.

    My last 9 matches (8-0-1) here's a quick overview of how they went:
    vs Elves: Dreadnought x2
    vs miracles: Dreadnought x0
    vs Zombardment: Dreadnought x0
    vs R/G lands: Dreadnought x1
    vs miracles: Dreadnought x0
    vs DS: Dreadnought x0
    vs miracles: Dreadnought x0
    vs Infect: Dreadnought x0
    vs ANT: Dreadnought x0
    Total Dreadnoughts killed [on stack or on-board]: 0

    There was significant stat contamination by Counterbalance (Dreadnoughts boarded to 0-1 copies), but it's fairly rare for UR to need to commit a Dreadnought to the board - this is likely very different vs your deck (whether or not a similar sample size is selected for 0 losses).
    Cool analysis of UR vs Mono-U, it makes a lot of sense. UR makes your dependence on Dreadnought smaller, which is a good way of splitting attention. I guess my approach is 'if Dreadnought isn't good, why am I playing Dreadstill?' I think it's very well positioned given the drop in Abrupt Decays in the format and it's a faster clock than Goyf/Mongoose/Death's Shadow. I think it could be a very good agro/tempo deck in the format. The deck it's facing steep competition from is Grixis Delver and UR Delver, both of which have different things they bring that Dreadstill can't: black (discard, removal, sideboard choices) or a clock just as fast (burn-heavy UR Delver lists.) I guess I just figure if I wanted to play a UR tempo deck I'd probably play UR Delver and lose the combo entirely, especially if I don't use it to win very often. Stifle is pretty narrow in the format as it is, so losing that half of the combo also opens up slots for more burn, which increases consistency.

    I get it, you have tons of experience with UR Dreadstill and you're winning games. I'd love to play it but lack of Volcanics keeps me away from it. I'd rather bank on Dreadnought, and if Dreadnought isn't great in the metagame I'll play a different deck. Call me crazy, but if the deck's namesake isn't winning a bunch of games, why play the deck?
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  5. #3885
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Played a 3-rounder back in Portland last Thursday; there were about 14 decks present.

    -Round 1 vs UW miracles (2-1): Game 1 they never have CB, but I never draw a single piece of countermagic. Game 2&3, they can't stick CBs.
    -Round 2 vs Infect (2-1): They get game 1; guessed wrong tapping down Factories for Pierce vs Glistener (getting targeting by kill spell on my turn); they also had Daze and last card is pump spell and I was already at 5 poison. With 0 to 2 poison counters I probably don't tap down b/c I'd be less scared of pump spell + Berserk in hand. Game 2 and 3 they get overwhelmed by Delver/Factory, red spells and some Standstills.
    -Round 3 vs ANT (2-1): Pretty normal stuff happening; in Game 3 Duress gets bounced back by Expansion // Explosion and their hand crumbles on the turn they went for it.

    ------

    Decided to spend an evening perusing the scriptures [the first 100 pages of this thread], which covers ~early 2008-late 2009. Found an old video that shows a relatively stock idea of what was going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckDFiQA14eQ.

    Really interesting to see that 4x Dreadnought, 4x Factory, 2-3x Trinket Mage was enough to compete in the format; but less surprising when you see CB/SDT being used to cheese out wins like it does. It was a different age (no Delver), but I can see how this now-dubious threat structure (without any sources of spell damage) was uniquely weak to Decay. The deck today operates nothing like the old one, but this seems to explain the blanket statement you'll often get of "that deck is bad because Decay."

    Among the more surprising things is the deck designs of classic Dreadstill (Ur, Ug, Ugr, etc) never led to [as far as I can tell] a burn/tempo variant more closely resembling today's builds - this seems to be due to Tarmogoyf destroying creative space of Goose/Grim + Bolt?? Less surprising is how this threat-light, slower construction led to a need for yard hate, which we don't really need anymore (certainly not 3 slots of completely dedicated yard hate like Crypt and Relic). Trinket, which seems unplayable today, helped to explain the amount of cards that didn't help the deck win (Needle and EE primarily) since you were apparently trying to sit back and lock the out with CB rather than needing to be proactive. The sideboard was mostly ok-ish playables by today's standards, but there was a noticeable chunk of cards that rapidly evolved: Chill -> Annul/Threads of Disloyalty -> Submerge/Bolt (note that Bolt was in the board, and rare to be in the 75 at all until later in '09).

    As alluded to earlier Dreadstill is being played in many color combinations; if white = StP/O-Ring, if black= Confidant/Seize, if green = K-Grip/Goyf, if red + green = Firespouts. By page 100 we begin to see the deck (and probably the format) coalesce around Goyf [and Submerge]. Not too surprising to see Goyf up there in the B/R thread poll due to the diversity killing; even as bad as Goyf is with Standstill (wrong cmc, sorcery speed), these versions [3-4 Goyf, 3-4 Dreadnought, 2-3 Trinket, 4 Factory] begin to dominate the discussion - almost certainly b/c you can't beat 'em unless you join em.

    My impression up to this point is that Goyf merely existing increasingly required its incorporation, which locked the deck into poorer deck construction [looking through the 2019 lens]. Goyf paired with Counterbalance (rather obtuse, but so wildly overpowered that you couldn't pass it up) probably hinders significant creativity until late 2011 (Snapcaster printed; Surgical earlier in that same year). I haven't read ahead yet, but I imagine Snapcaster will drive the deck away from Goyf towards white (StP/SCM; this would be an improvement) until we enter 2012 where WotC prints a better CB/SDT deck (Terminus/Entreat) and then Decay makes CB + not enough threats [i.e. poor construction by 2019 lens] unplayable. I imagine Confidant has some role to play, but having a tough time theory-crafting where it could have became a dominant Dreadstill playable...I think probably between Terminus/Entreat's printing and Decay, because you'd be tired of playing the worse half in a CB-mirror, but would have access to SCM/StP [for Goyf]...such that you drop Counterbalance, maybe....

    Starting out this interesting journey back to a legacy long before I began [~Khans, late 2014], I have been surprised that classic Dreadstill is so profoundly different than current iterations, where we're more focused on counting to 20 (or another unified objective). The classic got so many of the pieces right (Factory/Standstill/Bstorm/FoW/Daze/Stifle/Dreadnought), but like what the heck was going on with this sideshow of SDT/CB/Trinket Mage/reactive-only Trinket targets? Question for you @Rood and the old guard: I get the incentive to cheese wins off CB (since the card has always needed to be banned), but why no focus on building Dreadstill towards the current iterations [i.e. using 1-drop threats and Bolt]? Is the answer to that question simply Goyf rampaging through the format?

    The more important questions @Rood is what exactly was Team Hammafist, and also our deck apparently has a theme song?? On an unrelated note, K-Grip all over the format...really???
    Little Dreadstill history lesson..we used to be primarily a CB/Top deck that would lock opponents and drop Dreadnought. Trinket Mage was the go-to tutor/alternative win Con. The deck dropped this strategy when Abrupt Decay and Delver became existent cards. I decided that Delver was too insane of a creature to pass up in a deck like this. So we abandoned the CB strategy all together for a more tempo route. Goyf was a really scary card to deal with back then too because there weren't as many cards that could deal with it then. IDK anything about a theme song but yes K Grip was widely maindecked in alot of decks.

    My creature base was
    4x Trinket Mage
    4x Nought
    UR Dreadstill and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Cool analysis of UR vs Mono-U, it makes a lot of sense. UR makes your dependence on Dreadnought smaller, which is a good way of splitting attention. I guess my approach is 'if Dreadnought isn't good, why am I playing Dreadstill?' I think it's very well positioned given the drop in Abrupt Decays in the format and it's a faster clock than Goyf/Mongoose/Death's Shadow. I think it could be a very good agro/tempo deck in the format. The deck it's facing steep competition from is Grixis Delver and UR Delver, both of which have different things they bring that Dreadstill can't: black (discard, removal, sideboard choices) or a clock just as fast (burn-heavy UR Delver lists.) I guess I just figure if I wanted to play a UR tempo deck I'd probably play UR Delver and lose the combo entirely, especially if I don't use it to win very often. Stifle is pretty narrow in the format as it is, so losing that half of the combo also opens up slots for more burn, which increases consistency.

    I get it, you have tons of experience with UR Dreadstill and you're winning games. I'd love to play it but lack of Volcanics keeps me away from it. I'd rather bank on Dreadnought, and if Dreadnought isn't great in the metagame I'll play a different deck. Call me crazy, but if the deck's namesake isn't winning a bunch of games, why play the deck?
    The issue with UR/Grixis/RUG (or worse flavors, to include UB Shadow) of Delver is they all suffer from colored threats that don't trample. So we're talking about decks that all pretty regularly are going to insta-lose to DnT. On top of that bad matchup, they also have a high susceptibility to x=1 Chalice. Due to personal preference, I don't play any decks that auto-lose to those strategies. These Delver decks have precious little control over their destiny because their raw power approach = linear = easy to beat (and no amount of player skill is going to reliably dig you out of an unlucky pairing/scenario). All of those variants also are on the generally losing side vs either Hymn or CB...so I'm not really interested in using my free time to get crapped on by uninteresting matchup luck. Some of those variants have better overall win % than Dreadstill at any given time, but to me they feel like playing Hearthstone: recognize the single line (not difficult), play linear/powerful things....see if you win, because for the most part everything else is out of your control. These decks are hammers all they can do it hit nails [subjective]; they are however consistent hammers due to the cantrip cartel.

    Grixis Delver is severely weaker than when it had DRS, and it's barely a Delver deck due to the loss of 8-4-2 structure (8x 1cmc, ~4x 2cmc, ~2x big guys). When you have 4 Delver stranded by themselves at 1cmc, and you put in 3x TNN, and you start running Bitterblossom + a Snapcaster + IoK, you really need to step back and ask why you're playing crappy Grixis Jammy Jams except with Wasteland (even if your deck is close enough to Jammy Jams to occasionally jump into the DTB). The same applies for UB Shadow when they start saying "I need Strix and Bitterblossom, and....Hymn b/c control keeps beating me" - you're basically on crappy Jammy Jams. This smaller subset of Delver variants have now combined high auto-loss risk with being a bad knockoff of a better deck - so it's a double whammy in terms of wasting my recreational time by piloting them. I'm sure someone will take issue with this paragraph, but sufficed to say if you're on Grixis Delver, and you want to win more games, just turn your deck in Grixis Jammy Jams b/c you're basically there already.

    Coming back to UR and RUG Delver for a moment, they're fine but I'd rather play a strategy that does something different which allows the pilot to play 'more' magic (lower incidence of non-decision points~fewer redundant play patterns). UR Delver has one additional little problem: I'd be sinking time into a Delver deck that is completely reliant on DRS staying banned to remain a top performing Delver variant - it represents a significant chunk of wasted deck familiarity skill. Somewhat of a conundrum: Grixis Delver should just be Jammy Jams, yet if DRS unbanned Grixis is best Delver deck....which makes RUG Delver the best deck to hone Delver-playstyle skills with, but it's stayed at roughly the same power level for 7-ish years??? As a quick aside: I find playing Stifle without goldfishing application to be even less justifiable than playing Dreadnought (particularly when TNN numbers go north of 2 -> nice mana denial package -> deck tears itself in 2 directions).

    If we're just talking about the strict-UR family of decks you have Sneak and Show and UR Delver...and turns out both of these are pretty easy matchups for Dreadstill [in my experience]. Everything else you can do with Volc be it Blue Moon, non-Dreadnought Standstill, TNN deck (Blue Moon without Blood Moon), TITI, Phoenix, Stasis [+/- AF] - it's all just playing a crappy version of [insert UR Delver, SnS, or even Dreadstill]. I've never understood the morose fascination of playing UR decks [with completely normal/linear pieces] that die even harder to CB/Hymn backed up by SCMs with REBs....and the kicker here is that they are all hot garbage against any kind of yard-based combo, which is a key weakness Dreadnought is there to reverse.

    So to get around to your last item, Dreadnought is fine and it fills the role I need it to. I am able to be a combo-control deck, I can have a coherent mana denial plan, and it serves as another tempo reservoir to more efficiently count to 20. Very few decks in legacy challenge the pilot to solve puzzles/understand role assessment; this makes it interesting, and this type of game theory generally applies to other board games (which I enjoy playing, and being good at). The reason the Dreadnought thing doesn't happen all that often in UR is because it's not required to win the game. I assembled A+B [in hand] many more times than the 3x I made a 12/12 in that sample, but there was no benefit to pulling the trigger.

  7. #3887
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Nice post, I'm enjoying the discussion. A lot to unpack, I'll have to digest it for a little bit. Thanks again!
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Got around to speed-reading the rest of our thread up until Khans (this is where my time with Dreadnought began).
    -Page ~100-120: pretty boring reading, lots of Firespouts and Goyf/Dreadnought/Trinket with slight # differences.
    -Page ~120: Goyf use drops off and we begin to see more talk of UR and Uwb (Peacekeeper saw a good amount of play, which was a surprise. Normal suspects were StP/Confidant).
    -Page ~135: phyrexian mana shows up. General shift away from Daze and towards Misstep; we also see some pretty wild lists using Torpor Orb. Surprisingly it will take until ~mid 2013 to see a move towards Surgical over the old school more absolute forms of yard hate.
    -Page ~145: Delver & Snapcaster arrive and we start seeing even more explosions in terms of deck building directions. UR becomes more prominent, and Grim Lavamancer is generally a winner while Trinket and CB decline steeply.
    -Page ~155: This is about the first time we see count to 20 Dreadstill (Bolt in the maindeck). Almost immediately after this Decay is released (Vision Charm will generally overtake Trickbind in flex slots which is a pretty radical change). Also around this time is when we finally see Submerge really start to drop off in the SB.

    What is interesting is that Decay doesn't seem to have coincided with the decline of Dreadnought; the real change (loss of CB aspect) was printing UW into the CB deck. Decay ofc kept anyone from trying to ever play classic (few threats + CB/SDT) again, which makes sense. There doesn't seem to have been a point in discussion where Uwx builds ticked up to capitalize on Goyf being weak to SCM/Plow (I'm guessing these players simply went straight to miracles).

    A wide variety of builds are mainly confined to the pg. 120-140s, but even then you have to read pages 160+ to begin to see concept/card choice optimization towards unified end goals in mind. Even in the 120-140s range it's fairly normal cards being played in a normal fashion. Probably the most important post comes from @Rood in like 2010 where he breaks down 2c vs 3c Standstill builds on manabase minimum levels; the idea of his post went something like this: 2c at 20-21 land [max 4 Wasteland], 3c at 22-23 land [max 3 Wasteland]. It's a particularly relevant observation when cards like Cindervines come out and defunct color builds can again be looked at (in this case Ugr). Unfortunately the old Ugr were pretty much only Goyfs main and Firespouts/Grip/Library in the board; so not much to incorporate into theorycrafting. At this time in legacy though, we really need to see the old half of our deck banned (CB, prisoner exchange SDT) to look at building forks centered around Confidant - the old pages have a good deal more promise in this area.

    I really dislike playing >2 colors in this archetype, but I'll give Ugr some thought over the next few days. Until CB issue is fixed, I think UW, UB, and UG are generally solved [conceptually], and we're able to identify what we need to see from cards that don't exist yet. UR is still in a pretty reasonable spot right now with its ability to 'combo' all pieces towards life total; but even with Decay (and Goyf) pretty much gone, it's hard to see the way forward to the return to oldschool 3-4 Snare. Regaining the UR Snare reservoir is another thing I'll have to think about (but likely with different cards, b/c 3-4 Snare seems pretty questionable today).

    On an unrelated note I keep seeing "ITF" in old deck name; what does that stand for?

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    ABU Games Win-a-Dual [Badlands] 2-Feb-19 in Boise, ID.
    Decks: 14
    Structure: 4 round, cut to top 8, highest seed on the play
    Archetypes: Grixis Jammy Jams, Elves!, Goblins, Moggcatcher, Ankh Burn, strange* Eldrazi, B/R Reanimonster, OmniTell, Sneak n Show, Rootwalla** Madness, UR Phoenix (w/ Thin Lizzy and Delver), 2x LED Dredge, and....he who Entered the Fist!
    *Aether Hub, Displacer, Pyroblast in the 75 (with Chalice), otherwise looks like Eldrazi Aggro. Somewhat similar to M. Lanigan's list from Eternal Weekend in 2016 (US).
    **Rootwalla + Phoenix + Vengevine + so much hotness. Same pilot as was on Zombardment in last tournament report, similar support cards as Zombardment. Everybody knows Rootwalla is the true 9th piece of power!

    -Round 1 vs Goblins (2-0): Game 1 they mull to 5, but I make up for it with 3 consecutive Bstorm locks and they will hit 2x Recruiter; anyways they have turn 1 Vial, but die to like a turn 10 Dreadnought - this game was a cripple fight. Game 2 they turn 1 Vial into the Thalia thing, I have to Bolt the hasty Goblin King (forget actual name) to kill Lackey with a flipped Delver block. I go on to deploy Torpor Orb and they tap out to play Recruiter into it, next turn I drop Dreadnought x2. In one of these games Snare tagged a Cratermaker which was fun.
    -Round 2 vs SnS (2-0): Game 1x Delver + 2x Bolts gets there. Game 2 Delver + 2x Daze stops a Sneak, they never recover. I play this game optimally (hold up countermagic over slamming Standstill), but pretty pissed off at myself for somehow playing 2 land drops after the double Daze turn - thankfully opponent catches this immediately, but this is a mistake I haven't made since 2016 borrowing GushHydra in Vintage (Fastbond/4x Gush - which is incredibly hard to monitor land drops when you never practice with those cards...). I'm 2-0 but this is the kind of mistake that tilts me off, b/c it means I'm too tired to play.
    -Round 3 and 4 vs LED Dredge and Moggcatcher respectively: weakness of 14 man tournament format shows through, and double intentional draw into the top8 with 8 points.

    Top 8 matchups:
    [1] UR Phoenix vs Ankh [8] Ankh Burn (got in with 2-2 record iirc)
    [2] B/R Reanimonster vs [7] Goblins
    [3] Moggcatcher vs [6] Rootwalla Madness
    [4] Dreadstill vs [5] LED Dredge -> (2-0) Game 1 they mull to 5ish and are too slow to outpace a Delver + Factory. Game 2 I force LED, then they Breakthrough; they have dredgers for next turn but can't find Ichorids, and I Stifle 2x Narcos while Delver + Factory kill them.

    Top 4 matchups:
    [8] Ankh Burn vs [4] Dreadstill -> (2-1) I'm on the play and Dreadnought them. Game 2 they are down to hellbent, but I can't find action other than some SCM beatdowns, thus I die to 2x topdeck burn spells. Game 3 I go turn 1 Lavamancer, turn 2 Dreadnought, and their Eidolon is definitely locks them out after a single Dreadnought hit (even if they had the mana to cast Bridge they topdecked before conceding). Props to opponent for Game 2 Burning Wish for Cave-In, and Game 1 Wish for Pulverize (ran into a Daze).
    [2] B/R Reanimonster vs [3] Moggcatcher

    Finals:
    [2] B/R Reanimonster vs [4] Dreadstill -> (2-1) Game 1 turn 0 Entomb, into turn 2 Grisel; there was a single window where double Bolt + Delver could have stolen a game. Game 2 Delver + Factory get there as I turn his Swamps into Islands for the rest of the game (Magical Hack + Snapcaster). Game 3 they mull to 6 and dump their entire hand into land/Petal/Looting (drops Inkwell)/Unmask pitch Entomb (I FoW this) and then Reanimate runs into Surgical. Game ends with Grim Lavamancer beating down with Factories under a Standstill.

    +1 Badlands

    Big props to B/R Reanimonster for making it to the finals after playing against Leyline x4 (or RiP, this one from Goblins) SBs in each and every round. Rev. Silence x4 was a great call. Made sure with organizer that we could begin match where, if I won, I could give him a bye for Win-a-Dual [Underground Sea] since I already got my bye last time - after that much Leyline nonsense all day long, he earned it. Needs to flatten out the Exhume foil before the Usea battle though; pretty sure I could cut to it.

    Other highlight of the tournament was that Grixis Jammy Jams got rolled (first by Moggcatcher's turbo Moon), and dropped after Round 2 - no pity for Hymn users. Elves! also dropped after Round 2, but you just look at the meta and can see what happened: Goblins was their only possible good matchup in that room with DRS banned - really sucks for them that DRS got banned for Hymn's sins (this one is a Fetchland issue at its core). I was looking forward to playing vs UR Phoenix, but he too fell prey to the Wish for Cave-In.

  10. #3890
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Split my local 15 man weekly tonight playing the old faithful: Dreadstill :D.

    Played the list I have been tuning and I only lost a single game the entire night

    1 Torpor Orb
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 True-Name Nemesis
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Standstill
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Spell Snare
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Wasteland
    4 Island

    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Dismember
    2 Misdirection
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Abrade

    Rd 1 Miracles:
    How overjoyed I was to see this matchup right off the bat. Game one I blow him out with a fast Dreadnought combined with Delver and FoW backup. Also stifled one of his fetchlands.
    G2: I grind him out with a TNN and Delver. He uses Judgement on the TNN but Delver and Factory beats finish the job. This matchup never felt like a struggle at all. I think it's one of this decks strongest MUs atm.Key to note I stifled two of his fetches this game.

    Rd 2 Punishing Rock
    G1: I lead with turn 1 Delver when I had Snare in hand...oops. He leads with turn 1 Mox into Chalice at 1. I am lucky and have double FoW with TNN. He plays Bob on turn 2 and the lifeloss combined with Delver/TNN beats are too much for him to overcome.
    G2: He grinds me out in an insane game of magic. Took up most of the round for sure. I eventually concede reconizing I have no outs.
    G3: I get there on the back of Standstill and Dreadnought. Misdirection was also very nice for me.

    Rd 3 Nic Fit
    (On stream)
    G1: Turn 1 Delver into chain Standstills is all she wrote. I think I win on turn 5 or 6 max.
    G2: I stifle and wasteland him into oblivion. Drop a Dreadnought and TNN in the same turn. He paths Dreadnought and dies to TNN with factory.

    Rd 4 Food Chain
    Bryan is a buddy of mine and he really wanted to go home and split the 1st place prize so I agreed. I think generally this MU is okay for us as long as you keep Strix off the table.

    So overall 3-0-1 good for 55$ store credit. (Snagged a couple more fetchlands)
    -Spell Snare felt so dumb good for me all night.
    -Dreadnought was very good won me alot of matches.
    -Misdirection and Dismember continue to be my 2 best SB cards. Never leave home without them.

    I think right now this deck has insane game vs most of the meta. It's in a really good place right now.

    -BTW I noticed alot of people playing Delver board out FOWs in certain matchups...I will give you guys my take on this approach. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or what but at max I board out 1 FOW and that's a maybe. I don't understand this approach because most of the time I feel like FOW is the best card in the deck. Even against burn...I'd like FoW for Fireblast and such.
    Last edited by Rood; 02-07-2019 at 11:36 AM.
    UR Dreadstill and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  11. #3891

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    -BTW I noticed alot of people playing Delver board out FOWs in certain matchups...I will give you guys my take on this approach. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or what but at max I board out 1 FOW and that's a maybe. I don't understand this approach because most of the time I feel like FOW is the best card in the deck. Even against burn...I'd like FoW for Fireblast and such.
    When I started to play and learn (Grixis) Delver years ago I would side the standard -4 Fow or -4 Daze depending if you're on the play or on the draw. This was the standard play for RUG Delver at that time.
    As I learned to play match-ups better and got more experience with the deck I actually rarely board out Daze or FoW. Only few specific match-ups where Daze is bad because of the mana flood on the other side or you really can't handle the card-loss of FoW, or actually don't need FoW and got better alternatives.
    For example: I drop a few Daze vs Nic-Fit and Miracles and drop a few FoW vs other Delver decks on the play. Almost never side out a full pack.

  12. #3892
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I feel like this deck can keep Forces, and to a smaller extent Dazes, in post-board because they have such good synergy with Standstill.
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  13. #3893
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Rood,

    I like your list nice work! You have way more experience so i'm interested in what you think about splashing white instead of red... I notice the only red cards you have in the main deck are 4 bolts. The sideboard has two abrades and two red blasts bringing the red card count to 6/75. If you replace the bolts with swords, wouldn't that reduce the need for the dismembers? Also the abrades could be replaced by disenchants and with white we have opened up the door for way more SB options & Tocatli? How fundamental is R in your opinion? I get that it helps remove creatures and burn them out but I wonder if there is space for white. Fox or anyone else feel free to jump in as well. Fox you seem to think UW is solved conceptually, do you think miracles is just a better UW deck? I'm going to sleeve up some UW dreadstill
    Last edited by Fallen_Empire; 02-09-2019 at 09:38 PM.

  14. #3894
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Im sure playing white for swords over bolt could be totally reasonable. Alot of Dreadstill players like Lavamancer which I dropped for TNN in my list. I would still play with Dismember alongside swords postboard cause it’s so insane with Standstill as a 1cc removal. I think comparing UW Dreadstill to UW Miracles is kinda pointless since they’re both totally different decks. Just play whatever fits your playstyle the best.

    -has anyone tried a list with Ptermander? I think a creature base of

    4x Delver
    4x Dreadnought
    4x Ptermander

    could be really sweet. Might be too slow but should be tested at the very least.
    UR Dreadstill and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  15. #3895
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I'm still on mono-blue, and i have come around to the conclusion that Vapor Snag is not a good card. I am now playing 3 Dismember (4th in board) and 1 Piracy charm as my removal main deck. Sideboard has Echoing Truth and Ratchet Bombs for added removal. The cool part about cutting Snag is letting me get 1-2 Spell Snare into the maindeck.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
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  16. #3896
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire View Post
    I like your list nice work! You have way more experience so i'm interested in what you think about splashing white instead of red... I notice the only red cards you have in the main deck are 4 bolts. The sideboard has two abrades and two red blasts bringing the red card count to 6/75. If you replace the bolts with swords, wouldn't that reduce the need for the dismembers? Also the abrades could be replaced by disenchants and with white we have opened up the door for way more SB options & Tocatli? How fundamental is R in your opinion? I get that it helps remove creatures and burn them out but I wonder if there is space for white. Fox or anyone else feel free to jump in as well. Fox you seem to think UW is solved conceptually, do you think miracles is just a better UW deck? I'm going to sleeve up some UW dreadstill
    As much as I loved playing my UW Dreadnought list (the list was nothing but lines of play), you can't really afford to pick up Tundra with Daze. That mana was needed later on redefine top of deck to a zone of value, which I still think is the most important aspect white can bring. As you've alluded to, I think that it's just too easy to win with UW Standstill (in particular, since the printing of Teferi) since you get to play more cantrips and a wrath effect (Terminus), which UW Dreadnought couldn't play. @Rood this is where the comparison to miracles comes: UW Dreadnought will win less than UW Standstill, but UW Standstill can't beat Counterbalance so you'd have to play miracles until CB is banned. I still like everything UW Dreadnought was doing, but I think it's back to waiting for cards that don't exist yet.

    If we're talking about very minimal white splash only, I don't think your win % will increase when you add the need for 1 more Dreadnought swing. You'd get to play Daze, but there's not really any playable white creatures from cmc 0-2, and the list probably can't create a favorable gamestate for the inclusion of 2x Mentor - I think it's pretty safe to say that at this time in legacy, if you're playing white without Mentor [or Entreat], you need to redesign your deck to accommodate him. While Tocatli was a pretty nice addition, I don't think 4x Factory, 4x Delver, 4x Dreadnought, 2x Tocatli is a winning combination (you'd be getting to the stage of game where PWs are going to be hard to address). The old Dreadnought incorporation of white (circa 2011) was largely limited to StP and Peacekeeper, and even then white was really only occurring alongside black (Confidant).
    ---
    On the topic of Thin Lizzy (more mono-U slanted builds), you really have to maindeck a plan for Chalice if all your wincons are 1cmc (you're also not beating CB). It's fine to do this b/c of budget, but I think I'd take Gurmag over Thin Lizzy any day since every Fetchland is +2 mana. The UB builds generally not going to be the best shell for ~21 land + Standstill + Dreadnought...but Thin Lizzy gets them closer to potentially playing without Delver (hard to do what you need to do if you have 4x Delver, 4x Dreadnought, 3-4x Dark Confidant with very little room left for other creatures). Without Delver, you could maybe look for anti-Chalice in Lazav ( also much better having option to adapt 4 and fly in yard than Delver), but you'd be fairly weak to yard hate which all Chalice decks have. (The demands on SB for UB would still make Counterbalance an auto-loss)

  17. #3897
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On the topic of Thin Lizzy (more mono-U slanted builds), you really have to maindeck a plan for Chalice if all your wincons are 1cmc (you're also not beating CB). It's fine to do this b/c of budget, but I think I'd take Gurmag over Thin Lizzy any day since every Fetchland is +2 mana.
    I've found daze to put in work, but I understand why you don't want to pick up tundra.
    What do you think about about this list Fox:


    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    1 Illusionary Mask

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    2 Standstill

    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Wasteland
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Tundra
    3 Island
    1 Plains

    //Sideboard//

    2 Misdirection
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Disenchant
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Powder Keg
    2 Containment Priest
    1 Spiritual Focus
    1 Council's Judgment

  18. #3898
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I wouldn’t play mask with only 2 Dreadnoughts. Id cut it and a TNN for the set of Standstills. I wouldn’t play any variant of this deck with less then 4. I like SFM but its not entirely clear snapcaster might be better. Flashing back Swords is pretty insane I wont even lie to you
    UR Dreadstill and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  19. #3899
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I think once you sleeve up SFM (in a blue deck), you're playing Blade. I've seen no evidence of Blade + Standstill (without Dreadnought stuff) being a competitive combination. Despite the current fad of UW Delver, you're looking at an archetype that is too slow to survive drawing Daze in longer games; it's much safer to deviate from 1-for-1'ing and rely on Snapcaster and JTMS to draw/effectively draw extra cards. Throwing Dreadnought and Standstill into an already fizzle-prone shell (i.e. a tempo shell that self-sabotages away from short games) will generally result in lower win percentage.

    It all comes back to the problem with Tundra: you can go down Blade or UW Standstill paths, but they're both less-winning than Counterbalance. The straight-up UW Dreadnought approach (Delver/Dreadnought/TNN) is fine, but generally less reliable than Blade/UW Still. I still think the real promise in UW Dreadnought is waiting for WotC to print a more realistically-costed Mastery of the Unseen effect turns top of deck [think E. Tutor] into an exploitable zone of value.

  20. #3900
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I have a tournament coming up in June, and I think I'll go rogue with Dreadstill. I have been playing Turbo Depths for over a year and slowly building Maverick, but I have had some fairly decent success with Dreadstill at the LGS on occasion. I really want to try new Narset in here in one of the flex spots.

    Here's the build I'm going to test:

    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x Pteramander
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Vapor Snag
    2x Dismember
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    4x Standstill
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Scalding Tarn
    7x Island
    4x Wasteland
    4x Mishra's Factory

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Flusterstorm
    2x Misdirection
    2x Sower of Temptation
    2x Echoing Truth
    1x Dismember
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Torpor Orb
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    Without Volcanic Islands I would have to use Steam Vents (which is probably fine) and the red gives better removal and sideboard cards.

    Red version:

    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3x Snapcaster Mage
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    4x Lightning Bolt
    1x Abrade
    1x Fling
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Standstill
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Scalding Tarn
    2x Steam Vents
    4x Island
    1x Mountain
    4x Wasteland
    3x Mishra's Factory

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Dismember
    3x Pyroblast
    2x Sower of Temptation
    1x Jace the Mind Sculptor
    2x Grim Lavamancer
    2x Echoing Truth
    1x Misdirection


    Definitely leaning towards the red version. Abrade is a great card and Fling gives me a 5th option to use with Dreadnoughts for fast wins. I'm a little sad I can't cram in Grim Lavamancer maindeck, but I feel like Snapcaster is stronger with the bolts. Same with Pteramander or TNN. Bolt-Snap-Bolt will go a long ways towards playing a long game if needed.

    EDIT: Other cards I'm keeping on a short list for testing: Piracy Charm, Spell Snare, Nimble Obstructionist, Trickbind, Electrickery, Pyroclasm.
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