Indeed, things phrased "As..." are actually replacement effects that modify how they will enter the Battlefield. The only "weird case" here is how the rules were changed with regards to Blood Moon, or Humility, but that is kind of besides the point here, which is that anything that is "As..." is specifically not a trigger.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
If you're playing with Phyrexian Dreadnought, you're already living in a two-for-one world anyhow. Angler is intrinsically easier to cast on it's own merit, so fueling it turn two is much less of a losing proposition than hoping to hit a one-of DB. Gurmag Angler in a UB build is probably the best alternate win condition next to Dreadnought.
And with Petal, T1 Angler is very possible with four off the Charm, the Charm itself and a Petal for black mana.
Thanks for the notes, gentlemen. I was playing around an interaction that didn't exist, lol.Indeed, things phrased "As..." are actually replacement effects that modify how they will enter the Battlefield. The only "weird case" here is how the rules were changed with regards to Blood Moon, or Humility, but that is kind of besides the point here, which is that anything that is "As..." is specifically not a trigger.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
It happens. The rules are confusing and the confusing ones are even more so.
I once beat Chris Pikula in a Vintage tournament specifically because of that interaction with respect to Iona (in that case), so anyone could misinterpret it. (He didn't believe me, but the Judge made it clear that I was not misinforming him, .)
On Scroll of Fate, how has anyone else's testing been going? I know Rood's been trying it, anyone jamming it with Standstill? Or is it just not worth it?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Mono-Blue? Playing any other creatures like Stratus Dancer or just Delver still?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
So, playing tempo Delvernought (no Standstills, 3 Scrolls, near-mono-blue splashing black for Thoughtseizes).
And boy, is it getting tight in the tertiary threat / utility department: I have exactly 3 open slots between the following options: JVP, Brazen Borrower, Stratus Dancer, Fathom Seer and the new Gargoyle (ruling out Angler and Tasigur for nonbo-ing with Scroll). I'm tending toward 1 JVP (another in the side), 1 Brazen Bouncer, aaand ... I don't know ... I guess ... the Gargoyle?? I hate playing the morph dudes as long as I don't run the full playset of Scrolls and the Gargoyle is another formidable threat that helps justify 1-2 Vision Charms. I can also see the argument for Seer over JVP (reloading for vial-morphed 2/2s), I'm just having trouble letting go of my beloved Baby Jace.
Any thoughts & input appreciated. I'll only get to playtest this myself starting next week.
I'd also be interested in hearing from @Rood whether it's been awkward trying to get 3cmc Scrolls under Standstills. I'm still hesitant to go back to the classic Dreadstill as long as Tundra is less than oppressive.
I am newbie to this archetype, so let me ask a few questions:
Why is the "Dreadnought" archetype so focused on Standstill?
Why no Dark Confidant, Loam Engine, Thirst for Knowledge, Ancestral Vision, any other established card draw or even draw engines like Tax Rack?
Why is Stifle preferred over Torpor Orb (and Hushbringer, Hushwing Gryff, Tocatli Honor Guard) despite being card disadvantage with Nought?
You know, if I built a Dreadnought deck from scratch, I'd rather start it in the colors BW with Hunted Horror, Confidant, Vial, Discard, Torpor Orb effects, Scroll and Mother of Runes.
I have been testing 2 copies in mono-blue, no standstills (playing Ponder instead.) I am combo-ing more often this way, which I feel is better than sitting behind Standstill. It allows me to play Winter Orb in my sideboard, which I absolutely love (no Factories main.)
I like the new Gargoyle quite a bit, it may push me towards something like Thought Scour to enable it. I think it's absolutely hilarious that it can protect itself from Terminus provided it isn't summoning sick.
@sco0ter: The original idea of Dreadstill was to Stifle a Fetch, Wasteland a dual, land a Dreadnought or Standstill. If you could accomplish that with Daze/Force backup you were absurdly favored in a lot of matchups. I look at Stifle/Dreadnought as the most efficient way to get a 2-turn clock onto an opponent, outside of something like Death's Shadow. I actually think a Dreadnought/Shadow build might be pretty cool.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
@sco0ter:
-Confidant is fine, better with Petal, but somewhat worse with Daze/Scroll (SDT banned). High risk card to play against Wrenn and Six.
-Loam doesn't make Dreadnoughts, so you pick 1 thing to be doing: making Lage or making Dreadnoughts. A better card than Loam is Wrenn and Six.
-TFK is either too slow, or requires Sol Lands which means you should be on Chalice (not as great when Dreadnought is 1cmc, but Scroll helps some here).
-Ancestral Vision makes you worse vs combo, and you have to be able to remove Narset and Teferi.
-Tax Rack takes quite a bit to set up, and requires lots of basics (making Brainstorm worse). You also will likely run out of slots to support a Dreadnought package.
-Stifle hits lands, making both Wasteland and Daze better.
-Torpor Orb doesn't die to removal; for the others to be reliable you would kind of need to be playing Vial as well. All of these are less reliable than Scroll of Fate.
Dreadnought is a primarily blue card; there are some exceptions but not many. So in your proposed build you're already losing to Wrenn and Six and Plague Engineer (x/1s), and you're also playing multiple cards to the board which ensures you overextend into wrath effects. Your list lacks counter-magic, and while it would have discard this isn't enough to stop combo. Your list is too linear/too predictable, which takes away win %. Some examples of how not-blue decks have to be constructed to compete (though I don't know why Dreadnought is their preferred threat): https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23107&d=358760&f=LE & https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22118&d=349569&f=LE.
I found some time for Legacy today, and participated in our weekly no-entry-fee tournament, with around 20 people attending. I piloted these 76 to a 3-0-1 finish in first place:
4 Scroll of Fate
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Preordain
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
1 Dismember
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
8 Island
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Repeal
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Back to Basics
The sideboard is going to get updated; it's just a rag-tag gang of assorted "common picks" of SB cards I found resting in a box on my desk at home.
I beat 4c W&6 Control 2-0, then BUG Snow Control 2-0, then drew 1-1 against another 4c Walker Control, and beat Turbo Depths 2-0 in the finals. I don't have any experience with the archetype and came into the tournament totally unprepared (except maybe half an hour of goldfishing two weeks ago), but the deck got into gear really, really well really quickly and consistently. I think I'll be keeping it at this for the next few tournaments (but I did get my playset of Reality Shift today, which is going to stir up things :))
The Mono Blue lists should be using a creature base of
4x Gargoyle
4x Dreadnought
4x Scroll
With 4x Vision charms. The whole idea is you can use charm to power on Dreadnought...faze out to protect all your threats.. Or mill your opponent 4 cards to turn on Gargoyle. It pulls triple duty. @colo how was Counterbalance?
Edit: colo’s list without Stratus and with Gargoyle
This is more of a rules question than anything since I don't have any experience running this deck. But just making sure... you can use Vision Charm targeting Phyrexian Dreadnought in response to its ETB triggered ability, causing it to phase out. Then next turn you don't have to play Stifle or anything bc of rule 702.25d?
Stiflenought/Dreadstill has always been a neat deck I've wanted to pilot, but I just haven't brewed up a list to take somewhere. Now that I'm getting back into MtG, I'm checking out all my old favorites.
The battlefield is best conceptualized as two half-zones [phased-in half and phased-out half], added together called the "battlefield zone." When you phase-out zone-change'y things happen (remove from combat, all continuous effects end). Previously this exiled tokens - this makes sense b/c they effectively made a half-zone change (so just like a token ceases to exist~is exiled when it attempts to change zones, so too did it happen here).
Bringing it back to Dreadnought, it entered the [phased-in] battlefield and triggers -> you Vision Charm it to the [phased-out] battlefield -> the trigger will resolve but do nothing (default choice = I choose to sac the thing that made the trigger, which I cannot sac, the trigger is now resolved).
The first part of every untap step begins with phasing-in, and then untapping*. You will then move to upkeep checking SBAs. Note that the Dreadnought was continuously in the overall battlefield zone, so logically it cannot re-enter and trigger, as it never left. Note also the Dreadnought never left the battlefield zone - it never became a new object - so just like a creature that never phased-out it doesn't gain haste, it's been under your control from the start of the turn so it is no longer affected by summoning sickness.
*note that the 'controller' of the untap step phases in the things they controlled at the time which it was phased out. The simple version is Dreadnought comes back on your next untap. A more complex rule set is generated by phasing something out which you were supposed to lose control of after the turn ended (think Ray of Command type cards).
Can I ask about a card choice.
Why Stratus Dancer over Voidmage Apprentice?
I think the main reason to play Stratus is the interaction with the Scroll of Fate. If main use is with Scroll, it's better to use Voidmage. Of course, it's better if Scroll doesn't come in, or gets destroyed. But if that's the case, there are better cards than Stratus to counter instants and sorceries.
Or is it the extra 3/1 body + flying that helps sway it?
Any thoughts?
Since people have been asking about my Scroll lists I will post it with an update...I went 3-1 at my weekly today with this list. Since Scrolls inclusion I will say the card has done more then put in work for the deck.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Scroll of Fate
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare (Possibly considering reverting this to Pierce in this hostile control meta.)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Force of Negation
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Island
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Negation
2 Snap
2 Misdirection
My rounds tonight were
1-2 Blood moon chalice (Seriously should never lose this MU I misplayed a Standstill when he had Pyromancer in the GY to flashback)
2-1 D&T (Sanctum Prelate at 1 gets trumped all day by Scroll of Fate. He also could not swords my Dreadnought under it)
2-0 Depths. Postboard we just get stronger against them. Misdirections and snaps are very good here.
2-1 Grixis Control. Scroll won my both games in this set...He wasn't able to find a way to destroy it quick enough.
Out of my 7 wins Scroll contributed to 5 victories. Out of my losses Scroll was also very useful. I recommend people running Dreadnought to be on 4 of these at the moment.
Yes! (Although it's 3/2 after being flipped.) Even a 2/1 flyer can be what you need sometimes - and if it's just to stop the bleeding from a resolved Delver of Secrets... - while a vanilla 1/1 rarely is. I've previously played Stratus Dancer in Sea Drake Stompy, and was very happy with it there. I'm actually doubtful that the spoiled Vantress Gargoyle provides enough of an upside (strategically speaking) to warrant a 1:1 exchange with Dancer.
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