So, I personally think that survival rock is likely to be considered an established deck, but I don't really want to do up a primer(Edit:haha, boy was I wrong) based on the fact that I am pretty sure there is a lurker or two that have a lot more history with it than I and I also started using the deck relatively recently due to a burning desire to combat random jank.
I was posting about my experiences and thoughts on the deck on the TS thread and I started to realize that while some discussion points may be valid, others are completely non-compatible.
Here is my list anyway:
Turd Ferguson
// Lands
3 [R] Savannah
1 [ALA] Plains (1)
3 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [AL] Krovikan Horror
1 [JU] Genesis
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ON] Gigapede
// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
So, there it is. All I really did is that I stumbled onto a list a while ago and tinkered with it and made some adjustments. As a sucker for nostalgia, this deck really floats my boat as far as feeling like the old school Mikey P. with the silver bullet aspect and the ability to dominate a late game with recursion, while not completely relying on it at the same time in other stages of a game.
->Key cards and some of their functions<-
+ Faerie Macabre: This card has been controversial at times. The reason for this is that it does not wipe out a graveyard altogether, but it removes trouble makers like loam largely and also utility lands when an opponent has a crucible out. Macabre has been randomly useful in breaking goyf stalemates and even as an extremely ghetto, but all the same evasive dork.
+ Wickerbough Elder: Some people prefer harmonic sliver because it is a often two turns faster than a wickerbough. My choice of preference though is the elder though because GWU thresh has a remarkable two cards that they can flip to counter it, once he has resolved only a stifle of a removal spell can stop his ability, elder can also be played proactively which is nice, dodges most deed activations and of course has a fat ass. If I begin seeing artifacts with any great frequency, I can see myself looking at a different card, but as a whole I am quite happy with elder.
+ Big Game Hunter: Another controversial slot. With the increase in competent players online that are testing for the GP, I have found him to be more useful than a shriekmaw in that he kills basically any creature that can't be blocked, gives too much life off an StP for my liking at the time or deed doesn't handle. If I get survival, Hunters are very nice. Fret not though, maw-lovers. I run Mr.Maw in the sideboard and he seems to like it in there. It ultimatel;y comes down to preference: I would rather be prepared for Tombstalkers, Dreadnaughts and fat goyfs and sideboard to make things against the rest.
+ Kitchen Finks: Great card all around because they recoup lost life in race-type situations, flashback therapies and weather board clearing. Sometimes I wish I had more in the deck, but things have come down to a fairly tight list and four of these is likely to be superfluous.
+ Sakura-Tribe Elder: Acts as a shuffle mechanism, acceleration and a means of getting a basic land. I think three is the correct number for these.
+ Krovikan Horror: Some people love this card and others hate it. I personally don't see at as anything but the better tool for the job. What I mean to say is that he can randomly pick off trouble dorks in the late game, allows for a fairly annoying threat versus control in that he comes back every two turns roughly when you are pressing the aggro and recoups card disadvantage from using the survival, which I will go into more detail with later.
+ Genesis: Sweet and sassy Genesis. This card is the reason there is survival in this deck as far as I am concerned. In most situations, once you have one of these in your graveyard, survival has done it's job and it can get gripped or deeded away for all I care.
+ Eternal Witness: The creature has no "special function" or whatever. They do what they do and what they do is fucking great. There are different sorts of imaginative things you can do with them. These plays largely depend on the game state and such, but in the end they go a long way for battles of attrition and work amazingly as a defensive card when fending off a swarm strategy until a deed comes online.
+ Gigapede: This card is basically the "multi-purpose face smasher" slot. Originally Spiritmonger was in the 'Pedes spot, but I found that Spiritmonger was a big vanilla piece of shit most of the time, so he got ousted for the 'Pede. Pede is awesome against anything with targeted removal, dodges deeds and counterbalance with no problem and to top it all off can come back to play every turn. Great card. Did I mention the 'Pede works great at turfing a genesis in situations that a survival is lacking?
+ Sensei's Divining Top: Smooths-out draws and insures you get what you need when you need it. There are a fair amount of shuffle effects in this deck, so they're pretty awesome in here. I find myself using tops to insure that I don't miss land drops early in the game, which goes a very long way.
+ Survival of the Fittest: This card serves a very unique function in the deck because it is more of a tool to get genesis, a horror(maybe), an answer critter and a beater. Once that has been done, survival can die for all I care. Opponents tend to focus on survival quite sharply too, so they act as a very nice diversion in that some opponents will mistakenly assume that my game plan is hinged on activating survival as much as possible. The deck has a comparatively low number of creatures compared to its kin and this is a double-edged sword in that survival is sometimes a bit of a cock tease in that you will have it out, but no creature to activate it with and other times it is great because the guy across the table from you is going all out and pitching a FoW to a FoW to keep it off the table and you weren't even planning on activating it once and follow it with a resolved goyf or what have you. Survival is a very strong card in this deck, but I have won many games without using it once.
+ Pernicious Deed: The reason to play black and green for me is first turn discard and Deed.
+ Cabal Therapy: Originally, I was a bit weary of this card at first, but it works as a way to get genesis in the graveyard at times and is an insanely strong play following a thoughtseize. Synergy with finks is always nice too as well as a random way to get a witness into your graveyard to get raised.
+ Swords to Plowshares: Makes it so I have a chance against turn one lackeys and is just a staple all around.
+ Thoughtseize: Sometimes the life loss from thoughtseize is a huge pain in the ass when things on my side of the board are moving slower than I would like. The potential rewards involved warrant it though.
->The engine<-
One thing that I think sets this approach to the survival archetype apart from ATS and such is that the survival engine in this deck is extraordinarily compact. What I mean to say is that once you have had the survival out for one turn, it can get pith'd or gripped and it doesn't matter because you will already have your genesis binned, have whatever bullet and/or beater.
With the compact nature of the engine, I am allowed to run Krovikan Horro, which is functionally, quite similar and once you get some practice under your belt with the horror, you can do some very techy stuff with it.
->The deal with mana<-
A simultaneous strength and weakness of this approach is that you [b]need[b] to draw plenty of land, while ATS can often do its thing with only three on the table. The advantages of having a large number of basics and less reliance on mana dorks is obvious to me, so I don't want to go into too much detail about that because I'd like to think most of the people that will be reading this will be familiar with what I am eluding to.
->Deviation in strategy from other more survival-reliant decks<-
The big deviation here is that RockSur has basically declined the explosiveness and huge utility that ATS and such tend to rely on for their wins in favor of a "Rock" game plan of aggro control with some discard. What this brings to the table in my opinion is a very stereotypical "Rock" match up percentages. That is to say that you have a 50/50 chance against basically everything except for storm combo, which will be touched upon at a later date. The stable mana base also goes a long way in that waste locks, though increasingly rare, Back to Basics and moon effects are absurdly easy to play around. Another interesting aspect of the deck is that if you play the deck conservatively in the first game(s) and you manage to not break out all of your toys, you can often capitalize on an opponent trying to hate out a survival deck by essentially converting your deck with the sideboard into a more or less normal Gbw rock deck. I largely play online, so this is a bit more difficult for me to do because I can't analyze my opponent's demeanor and such. I have pulled this plan off before though and it was absolutely awesome: my opponent(s) burnt needles on a card that wasn't in the deck anymore and sided in crypts expecting to thwart a genesis engine and in return they got chokes, Teegs and more discard...take that fucker! Good times.
->SB<-
I don't want to explain what every card does like some people do, so I'll try to be concise with what they are for:
Engineered plague: It used to be for goblins, but now it's mostly for elves. Yay. Randomly good against dredge in theory, but I never see that match.
They're probably good against merfolk, but are hard to fit in and I haven't really felt like the games would have been won by them handily.
Krosan Grip: Best green sideboard card ever. Great in the quasi-mirror.
Duress: This is a formerly combo hate slot that I chose to diversify into a general control hate slot. I play online, which means there is a lot of random jank out there. There are also matches where I really want the first turn discard spell. Against combo they are sometimes good, but chant would be better according to many with more experience than me probably, though ATS has a different game plan against combo in that they can but a clock on very fast, whereas RockSur is often forced to try to make the game virtually un-winnable by raping their hand. An issue for discussion, I'd say.
Choke: Self-explanatory as far as I am concerned.
Gaddock Teeg: Combo hate...I suppose, but he is mostly there for control matches. Sometimes I want to run more for the sake of making the resulting transformational deck approach in second and third games more consistent.
Shriekmaw: A controversial slot. Not because it isn't a good card, but because many feel that it should be in the main deck and Big Game Hunter be in its place. I disagree with this strongly because I like to be able to kill Tomb Stalkers, dreadnaughts and particularly sassy goyfs in an uncounterable way. I would rather be prepared for the best decks in the format and sideboard against jank or less common decks than the other way around. A topic for discussion I suppose.
Tormod's Crypt: An admittedly random sideboard slot. I found myself hating extirpates a lot, so I took them out. The result was that I had two slots left to fill and faerie macabre is less than adequate to handle all of my potential graveyard removal needs.
->A quick look at experiences with matches<-
+ GWU thresh(non-NO+P builds): I absolutely love this match so far. I have yet to lose on in fact. The majority of your business spells are three mana and you have the genesis engine. I haven't played a lot of ATS, but I would assume that it has a similarly strong match, though due to deeds and no real reliance on survival, I think that this match is more favorable for RockSur. I could be wrong here, but that is my experience with it anyway. GWU Thresh decks that run NO+P are irritating, but if they become common enough there is always COP:R, which can help against sligh which isn't a match I have a lot of experience with, but could be bad(?)
+ White Stax: As someone that has played stax a lot, I like to be able to win this match handily because losing to a deck you played a lot...especially stax, is absolutely soul crushing. Between the discard, deeds, mana base and recurring beaters either in the form of gigapede or genesis should one be so lucky, stax has not been a big deal so far. Oddly there was a rather large saturation of normal geddon stax on mws for a while, so I have played this match a fair amount. Dutch stax is a largely untested variant, which could be more difficult because of moat and humility with less reliance on synergies. I still think that Dutch Stax would be a favorable match up though.
+ ANT/Storm shit: I hate this match. This is one match where the deck suffers severely in sacrificing explosiveness for more Rockish trappings. This match could be made favorable probably, but it would take a strong sideboard and that still does not account for techy bastards that know how to play DDFT and more skill-intensive storm decks properly. If I was to be attending a cash tourney IRL, I would probably worry about this match more.
+ Merfolk: I need more info here. This is a deck on the rise though in my opinion and will have more info quite soon. I have won some and lost some. It often feels like I am playing against slivers except merfolk can be far more explosive at time and also boast a very troublesome mana denial strategy. Even as a pessimistic person, I honestly can't say whether this is a good or bad match. Which is somewhat reassuring in that 50/50 matches that are decided by skill and random bullets are what make this deck attractive. Frustrating cards to see in this match are the aforementioned ports and reejereys. The extremely solid mana denial game that merfolk combines with a small, but effective set of permission makes this a match that requires a great deal of thinking. Standstill is a card that I almost ignore in this match though. In that I am the most concerned with them countering my deeds or stuff that I get back with genesis.
Post sideboard while on the draw(I have won first matches most of the time), things change a bit in that a call needs to be made in regards to whether you want to risk walking into a relic or crypt and try to get survival online or if you want to sideboard and leave the elements that they are likely to be hating on behind. This strategy really goes both ways and I try to keep the same strategy a lot of the time to see what they bring in for me. In a tournament where 2-1 can lead to a finish just below the top eight(as a long time Rock player, I am quite familiar with this occurrence), you may want to go straight for the transformation plan.
+ Eva Green-type deck(including TA as far as I am concerned): As far as I have found these matchups are definitely decided by the dice and who draws better quality cards. I don't see either of these decks too much anymore, but when I have run into Eva Green it has been a match that started out quite badly for me and then top decks happened and I stabilized into the late game eventually and it things worked out because RockSur lives in the later part of the midgame and lategam. Luck was obviously a factor, but often times Eva Green is very easy to run out of steam. TA has a very similar strategy and playing around stifle and daze is annoying at least and difficult other times, but overall I have not seen the deck a lot at all. I won the one match against it that I had by a complete blow out because of numerous basic lands, being on the play, getting a thoughtseize off and following it with a survival the following turn, but I would not consider that to be representative of the match up as a whole. I would consider TA to be a less favorable and fairly difficult match, but still quite winnable.
+ Dreadstill: I almost never see this match anymore. As far as I am concerned it is either a half-assed MUC deck or a half assed aggro control deck. Four wastelands and stifles are pretty easy to play around, but shit can happen. The dice and early discard is very important in this match up. Another very "Rock" match up in that the odds are in your favor, but not heavily so. Things will come down to skill and knowledge of what your opponent is playing. In the latter, I would consider the RockSur player to have advantage in that most opponents will rightly assume that they are against a more or less typical surivival deck.
+ Canadian Thresh: I have never run into this deck yet as far as I can remember. If I did, it was not a memorable match at all. Off of the top of my head, I would consider this to be a good match because while Canadian Thresh is insanely consistent, their clock is not lightning fast exactly. Swans could complicate things alot though. More info would be good here.
+ Slivers: Fucking slivers. I find that this deck is on the rise online. The deciding factor in whether this is a good or bad match is hibernation slivers. While hibernation slivers are not great for long term battles of attrition, they are absolutely annoying beyond belief in the short term when they have drawn enough life that you can't try to race them or devote all of your resources to getting a genesis engine online. This is one match where I would actually like to see extirpate, but alas they suck most of the time for me. In any even, I consider this to be for the most part a pretty good match in that their permission is sparse, crystallines mean little and all of their shit gets popped by a turn five deed. In second games I don't really change my deck around a lot other than slipping a 'maw in and maybe a choke or two. Everything you need to win this match is in the main deck, you just need to make the right decisions.
+ Faerie Stompy: I have yet to meet SasB or Eld on mws. lol
Seriously though, I have never played this match yet. I have no idea how it would end up. I assume the biggest factor would be whether they have real faerie stompy player luck or if they have some scrub that dl'd it off of deckcheck/magic-league luck, which in most cases is piss-poor.
+ Landstill: A match I see very little of, period. I ran into what looked like a UWB speedstill build and it was a very close match with very tight games, but I won on the back of a genesis engine. It was extremely close though and it could have been anyone's game as far as I am concerned. I chalked this up as match where siding out elements of the deck that may be hated on heavily would be very viable to get the game two win. Things worked out in this way and a choke never resolved, they were pivotal as counterfodder and led to a gigapede eventually resolving. If this game had been in a sanctioned tournament, things would have gone to time before the second game finished. I imagine things would be quite different with other landstill builds, but I just don't have any data to substantiate those suspicions.
+ Survival Elves: I like this match a lot. It always seems like a challenge at first, my life goes fairly low and then a deed gets popped and it's all over from there on usually. This is an over-simplification obviously, but I haven't lost to survival elves yet. I have played this match a fair amount, but not enough to say it is a complete blow out or anything like that: I have lost games, just not matches yet. Elves are very explosive and the mirror entity combo has smashed me before. I am not trying to make light on how quickly they can recover from having the board cleared either. Elves are a scary, but favorable game as far as I have seen so far.
+ Aggro loam: Never ever ever ever played against it online. I'm completely serious.
So I started hammering this thread out about two hours ago or so and it ended up turning into a half-assed primer. Go me. Anyway, I would really like to sort of issue a call to anyone else that plays this deck or has experience with it to bring their thoughts, ideas and arguments to the table because this deck really does needs its own thread, so people like me are not contaminating the ATS thread anymore.
To get the ball rolling on particular cards...
-Vindicate: pure sex or no? Do you run it? Would you run it? How would you fit it in?
-Necrotic sliver:Tech or cool thing to beware of?
-The storm menace in general?
-Missing info on matches or info on matches not covered?
Edit: I like to give credit where it is due and a lot of testing for the more or less identical build that this list came from was probably done by a fellow named Arne Fricke. I don't know if he is on this site or not, but thank you very much.
Last edited by Mordel; 03-06-2009 at 03:06 PM.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
This deck looks like fun! I must say, Turd Ferguson is a funny name. Celebrity Jeopardy, right?
.
Anyhoo, on to the points!
Point 1: Despite the obvious synergy I'd say Vindicate > Necrotic Sliver. The Sliver is just too mana intensive to do anything. You may opt to drop the Swords to Plowshares for the Vindicates, but I think you're probably better of with the Plows.
Point B: You haven't mentioned Goblins in your testlist.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Yeah man, Burt Reynolds!
Good call on goblins. I actually haven't run into them with it yet. My first guess about the match would be that it would depend on what build. I actually would assume that it largely depends on who is on the play, but it could be pretty bad depending on first turn lackeys and no swords to answer them etc. Sometimes goblins get stupid hands than only a turn two moat/humility can fix ;)
The deck is extremely fun though. What made me opt to play it over ATS is that the deck is very consistent as far as the resources that you get online and the tools you have at your disposal, so even if I lose a game it doesn't feel like it is because my deck didn't want to cooperate, which leads to very satisfying games either way they go. Decks always treat people different, but as someone who has thrown a few decks across a store/community center, I don't see myself doing that with this deck. It always cooperates with me which is rare as far as online mtg is concerned.
I was thinking about necrotic sliver mostly because it is one slot, while vindicates would need to be at least two in my opinion. In the end I don't think either really fit the bill too well. Though if I was going to try vindicates, swords is probably what would get taken out for them. You're right about that.
Last edited by Mordel; 03-06-2009 at 01:04 PM.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
You know that ATW stands for Archetype To Watch, right? ;) This deck fits perfectly in that thread. I run deed in survival myself, it's a good catch-all sweeper. It doesn't do a thing against combo unfortunately, and that is the matchup I'd like to improve.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Yeah, I guess I saw tired and forgot about what abbreviation goes where. Thanks.
That thread is all Angry Tradewind Survival-type decks now, so I think the Archetype to watch thing is only in name really.
This deck plays dramatically different than ATS as far as I am concerned and I actually spent a while last night explaining that on this primer.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
This is a nice primer. I think some of the the match-up descriptions are a bit convoluted though.
What I would find very useful is the key cards in your MD and potential SB strategy you would use and what there key cards are that you are looking to stop in their deck.
BTW: As you stated, siding out your survivals and even your tops if possible would make all the artifact/enchantment hate they bring in dead which would make for a very funny second game when people are dropping needles and holding grips!
Edit: The only mildly confusing slots in this deck are Krovikan Horror and Gigapede. I get using horror as a nod to the old school as well as being pseudo squee but wouldn't you just want to have the certainty of squee coming back? (I also get that you can sack a creature like BGH and get it back with genesis but still...) Also, I know gigapede hoses all sorts of targeting things but doesn't the deck do this in general. Is it because you can get it back?
I think Kitchen Finks are so awesome in deck with deed and therapy. They have a decent size body, and they gain you life which is just an added bonus.
Last edited by jazzykat; 03-06-2009 at 02:34 PM. Reason: I am considering playing this deck.
I have a late twelve page minimum paper on the social causes that contributed to the 1949 Chinese communist revolution's success hanging over my head, but I do what to flesh things out a bit.
I'll work on the card slots first and try to flesh out the match ups as they come for sure though.
I am hoping some guys come out of the woodwork and can help contribute too.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
The man you mentioned is me, I played it on the Mercadiade and finished 6th out of 118. I think it is a very good and underplayed deck.
I really like your primer and the results about matchup statistics are basically the same that I have. Gigapede is a strong card and a great threat. Very playable.
The deck's greatest strength is that it indeed crushes all Threshold variants as well as Team America and its bad matchups are not that much played. I played 3 times against TA in the Mercadiade and went 3-0, 6-1 and in my tourney career I am ~ 10-1 against other Threshold variants.
The matchups are very well described as well as the SB strategies.
Your questions:
Vindicate: It is really good. I had it in the list as a 2-of for a long time and I always switch it back in and out.
Necrotic Sliver: bad and slow.
- The Storm menace: You just have to live with a bad matchup. Every deck has one. If you get paired against one you can still get lucky in G1 with a Seize / Therapy / Witness / Goyf draw or Mulligans on their side. In G2 you reach about 50% with 4 Seize, 3 Duress, 2 Therapies and 2 Gaddocks so you also have a chance to come back from a 0-1. There is just not much you can do about it.
- Shriekmaw vs. BGH: The logic behind BGH is that if they have a creature with power less than 4 you can just search a Goyf and block it instead of killing it and then search next Goyf next turn. This combined with the omnipresence of Dreadnought and Tombstalker made me switch to BGH. Unfortunately none of them can kill a Dark Confidant. The main reason for Shriekmaw would be if you expect many Tribal decks because Maw can snipe their Lords while now you have to rely on having drawn a StoP and getting it back with Witness.
- For the untested matchups:
- Faerie Stompy: Really good. If you have StoP and they don't have Chalice you just win. If you get Survival in time you also win and if you blow up Deed you also win.
- Aggro Loam: The matchup is as bad as FS is good. They have a stronger CA engine and with Devastating Dreams and Seismic Assault 2 game ending spells.
- Ichorid: Even worse. G1 is not winnable unless they mull into oblivion. In G2 and G3 it depends on how your SB looks like.
- Goblins: I have played the matchup very much. It is pretty much 50/50 overall with them being ahead slightly in G1 and you being ahead in G2 and G3.
- Landstill: G1 is very good because you can usually overwhelm them with Gensis. Her eis a strategy that worked for me (especially with Top but also without): go for the long game: They have very few threats and unless they resolve a planeswalker you can handle all those threats quite easily: you can even sit under a Standstill very long (until you are at~ 10) and build up your mana base a hand with a lot of Discard (preferably Cabal Therapy), then Sword their Factory in their EoT so that you drain a Counterspell and then let them Discard to 7 cards. Then in your turn you are usually able to destroy their counterbackup, resolve a Survival and dump Genesis into the yard. If they have E Ex / Ruins going use Faerie Macabre.
- Progenitus Order: Progenitus on board > this deck. A real problem that I have not tested against yet. I assume that if you go to GP with this deck you would want a Fleshbag Marauder in the SB.
I am quite relieved that you're cool with the primer. I was worried that I had not assessed some aspects of the deck deeply enough or was missing something. haha.
For the progenitus issue, I am somewhat averse to fleshbag marauder in respect to the strategy that surrounds it when an opponent sees black a lot of the time; play conservatively as thresh and hold back threats in their hand to soak up edict effects. While marauder could work quite well, I am not sure if I would want to rely on a card that requires me to clear out creatures or have a genesis up and running.
I am not saying fleshbag marauder isn't at all viable, it just seems as though there is a better option out there...I just haven't figured out what it is yet.
One thing that I did try against a Natural Order thresh build was siding in duress, a Teeg and a shriekmaw to help keep the board clear easier. I have only seen progenitus thresh once with this deck, but that strategy worked for me on that occasion, though it was a bit precarious for my liking.
What does your list look like as of now in relation to your meta?
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
Great primer! I have been playing a very similar list as you and it is my favorite deck. It is so well balanced, and I can't really find any impossible to win match-ups. I have had success against friends playing NO/Elves, MUC, Belcher, burn and merfolk. Deadguy was my worst match-up, we share many cards but they are faster with ritual and have more discard than you.
I really like bob in this deck, he provides an another must answer spell and your mana curve is generally pretty low. Also recurring nightmare has nice synergy with finks/witness/harmonic. How do you like STE? I have always played birds.
My current list (trying to pimp out)
Lands (21)
1 Scrubland
3 Savannah
1 Plains
5 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (19)
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
Spells (20)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Survival of the Fittest
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Orim's Chant
4 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macbre
1 Yixid Jailer
I really really dislike birds. In some matches they give an edge in speed, generally speaking, I prefer the overall solidness that I get from a basic land given by a STE, coupled with their blocking and shuffle effect is just great for me.
Birds probably do work well in conjunction with nightmare though. I am not basing that off of recent testing or anything, but from experience with ye old Vegas Rock. I see the merit in your list, but it is a bit too busy for my preferences.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
The main problem I see with STE is that it can't be cast turn 1. This means no turn 2 Survivals + activation which slows the deck down. I know this isn't meant to be fast but the deck has to have some way to survive early.
I haven't run into a situation yet where I would have rather played a birds than discard or a top on my first turn really and survival is nice, but it is not a critical element to get active early a lot of the time. Genesis is generally a later game card and the bullet creatures are generally for the mid game.
This means that most of the time, I am not too concerned with getting a survival out early, which is why there are only three.
To use birds as far as I am concerned is to sacrifice one the strength or having a mana base that is only disrupted by cards that directly target lands. I wouldn't want to cut back on lands for this reason if I did add birds and at the same time, I would have too superfluous mana resources at other times. As a result, I think a sort of catch 22 is created with Birds for me.
Maybe it is an irrational thing for me, but I just don't like birds in this deck at all in that I prefer deeds to be as-one sided as possible and some of my most frequently sided-in cards are duresses which means twelve first turn play cards without birds that I would consider to be more important most of the time than fairly isolated situations(that I actually haven't run into yet) when I want a survival to be played and activated on the second turn.
I should probably mention that MWS absolutely loather me when it comes to land most of the time and this deck gives me beautiful land drops as it is right now. Since I did a bit of tinkering with the Arne's original list(I did briefly try four birds in the place of the STEs and 'Pede originally very very brief), I have not run into losses that I replayed to myself and chalked up as resources not coming online fast enough. If I had a specific metagame that I played in my thoughts may be different.
That's a lot of banter about birds =/
One bullet creatures that I have been thinking about a bit is spike weaver and to a lesser extent: dawnstrider. Mostly spike weaver seems kind of interesting in that it can come in for a variety of matches, dodges a CB most of the time and does a bit of splash damage(sorry for the Floresism) to progenitus strategies by stopping the card for at the very least a turn and if you go the fleshbag marauder root, it would allow you to whittle away at their buffer creatures. I don't know how good they would be, but just tossing the idea for weaver out there. Dawnstrider seems frail and janky to me now that I think about it more.
A sideboard change that I may try out in the future would be something like this:
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Spike Feeder
1 Shriekmaw
2 Vindicate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Duress
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
I've taken out the plagues because I honestly have sided them in, but haven't actually had them involved with a win yet and I am noticing people are netdecking progenitus thresh more and more and the same goes for slivers. Choke seems like a somewhat sketchy card to remove, I haven't used them a lot lately and I would like to test what I side out for vindicates and/or how often I use them. An extra Teeg seems like a good plan in regards to the frequency of the overall shitty glass canon ANT builds(no burning wish...just chants and discard) that I am seeing more and more often on magic-league, which basically have no way to effectively deal with one.
Hardly an optimum sideboard, but some of the cards in it will be worth testing.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
The thread was not very populated but I really think it is a great deck and very underplayed. It is quite difficullt to play and needs testing. I say that because often when I see people play it they screw up.
Here is my current version with some thoughts.
// Lands
4 [M10] Forest (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [A] Savannah
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
1 [6E] Plains (3)
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
// Creatures
2 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [AL] Krovikan Horror or 1 Squee Goblin Nabob
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [5E] Birds of Paradise
// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [AP] Vindicate
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [DDC] Duress
Verdant Catacombs: Awesome. Obvious 4-of.
1 Birds / 2 Elder: Sounds strange, but is the best configuration. They are quite similar in power level, but Elder is a bit better. And there are situations when u tutor for Birds (When stuck on 2 Mana; when in need for a chumpblocker; when u get Survival active with only 1 Mana left after Squee / Horror.
BGH: I think it became too slow. With Zoo and Tribal decks there are many creature decks where it doesn't do enough or is too slow. Tombstalker's are less seen too.
Shriekmaw: It is a solid card to draw but a while ago it was unnessecary because everyone played only Goyf (so you could just tutor your own Goyf) but with Merfolk and Goblins on the rise I want to be able to tutor for it.
Fleshbag Marauder: Like Shriekmaw a solid spell. He is an Edict when drawn and a possible solution for Progenitus or Tombstalkers. With all the creature decks running in the format I don't mind an additional removal spell.
Vindicate: Found it more useful than Therapy. Takes out problem cards like Tombstalker, Elspeth, Counterbalance and is obviously very flexible.
SB:
Engineered Plague: With a fazillion Lords around I don't like it that much anymore.
Gaddock: Great vs. Combo and Ichorid, also prevents Natural Order.
Kitchen Finks: Flexible SB-Choice against Burn, Zoo and Tribal.
@Tao : thanks for your current version, its allways nice and helpful if you write about survival-rock
SB : What do you think of 1 Faerie Macabre, if survival ist out it can be searched and used at instantspeed an can be used again with genesis ?
In the last tournaments i played : bant survival, and i recognize how good noble hierach is. I think it has a better matchup against combo.
I saw some lists trying to fit him in, and cut deed and some other things going more aggro, o.k. he doesn't make black but exalted is so good....
Here ist the list, i wannted to test, and it would be nice to hear your thoughts and from all others, too
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy (or Thoughtseize)
Faerie Macabre is solid, I agree. I have it already in the list. In a tourney you really want to win G1 against Control because of time issues and Farie helps there a lot. Siding it IN for game 2 after a lost game to fight recurring stuff would result in a draw at best, that's why Faerie and Genesis are no viable SB options. Plus of course it helps against Loam and Ichorid. Just don't forget (like me) to side it out in half of the games.
Bant Survival is a good deck, too, but you can't mix the decks up. This is a control deck and Confidant and Hierarch are not what the deck wants. If you want to play aggressive Bant Survival is superior and as a control deck the Deed list is better.
If you play with Confidant and Survival in one deck you have enough engine already so should imo stay away from a Tutor and Nightmare engine because you don't have enough Mana to do everything. Maybe 2 Tops, but not more. You probably should only play spells that affect the game without additional costs like Creatures, Removal or Discard. Vindicate, Doran or Putrid Leech sound like they could work well in this.
I also dont like Therapy anymore, I think Legacy became too fast for it. I usually wants to fire my discard as soon as possible to get rid of Vial, Counterbalance, Confidant etc. and Therapy often does not help against these so my vote goes for Thoughtseize.
@Tao : You are right about Faerie Macabre, i didin't saw that there is 1 allready in the main !! My fault.
Another Questions : how to you play against aggro-loam, i have trouble dealing with devasting dreams, my tactic is fetching basics and hoping that i get wish or dreams, before he plays it, also i tried sandbagging mana, but i'am not sure which strategy is the best ? A advice from you would be very heplful ;-)
In your version Faerie Macabre is also a weapon against it, perhaps i should try your list it looks so smooth !!!
Hello, i play a lot RecSur, it's my fav' deck. Last day i saw this list that T1 in Italy, i played it a bit and found it quite strong:
creature [24]
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Genesis
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Shriekmaw
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [6]
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
enchantment [4]
4 Survival of the Fittest
artifact [2]
2 Sensei's Divining Top
land [20]
4 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Offalsnout
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Wispmare
1 Withered Wretch
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
3 Choke
What you guys think of that? I'm a bit surprised by the Masticore, you can play better creature, SDT is really strong in this deck, you shuffle all the games. BGH is a must too, always a creature you want to play against tarmo, Stalker and other fatty.
I'am playing Survival since you published the first lists of RGB-SA with Gempalm Incinerator and stuff and I have to disagree with you bout Hierarch.
STE is a nice chumpblocker, but Hierarch allows you to play more aggro-controlish, cuz it improves your board position without SotF, Confidant does the same, this deck is simply a good card deck, wich doesn't need a clunky reset button like deed, because of his ability, to dominate the board, with sheer cardpower.
Tutor allows you to build a super-flexible sb with 1 ofs, wich can be found with tutor, Nightmare is just some kind of Bonus.
My Sideboard:
2 Gaddock
3 Path
1 E.Canonist
1 Crypt
1 Needle
0-1 Choke
2-3 Grip
2 Plagues
2 Duress
Path is Sper Sexy vs. Sligh, Rock (w.o. SotF), Tempo Piles, and Swarm Aggro.
@Jean: Aggro Loam is unfortunately one of the worst matchups so I am quite happy to not see it in the DtB Forum atm. Actually ANT/TES and Aggro Loam are the only matchups that I am really afraid of, the rest is at least even.
D. Dreams are not the only problem, it is tough enough to somehow stabilize against their quick starts with a Mox, to get the right Mana against Wasteland/ Loam. The best hope is to win G1 by destroying their early drawing machines with Seize or Swords. Another good thing that can happen is to Deed gainst Moxes and Chalice. Then surprise them with the Faerie and get out as many Goyfs as possible. Sandbagging mana is certainly right unless you slow yourself down too much. G2 or G3 gets a bit better with Crypt but it is still far from being a good or even matchup.
@GBW-Confidant list: I would certainly split Thoughtseize / Therapy 4-2. That list looks quite solid but even though there are basically just Birds and Deeds exchanged it is a completely different deck.
@Valdez: Yeah, back in the 80% Goblin Meta, good times.
The Tutor is certainly a viable option, it just does not belong in a deck together with Confidant because with Top, Survival, Survival 1-offs, Confidant, Nightmare and Tutor you run out of room for cards that actually do something.
AtM I prefer Finks over Path because of the Tempo Thresh matchup, I need to side something in for Wickerbough Elder and Faerie Macabre and Finks are just awesome in that matchup.
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