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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #5401
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    3cmc Gideon is anti-storm only
    I'm considering him (in addition, not in lieu of) against Thassa's Oracle decks, again, with added usage in other matchups. For instance, as a Doomsday pilot I'd rather see Deafening Silence than Gideon (very easily) especially from a blue deck because of its symmetry. I think I'd even be more afraid about Terminus than Deafening Silence. The double on T3 is rather optimistic however...

  2. #5402
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryBacon View Post
    I'm considering him (in addition, not in lieu of) against Thassa's Oracle decks, again, with added usage in other matchups. For instance, as a Doomsday pilot I'd rather see Deafening Silence than Gideon (very easily) especially from a blue deck because of its symmetry. I think I'd even be more afraid about Terminus than Deafening Silence. The double on T3 is rather optimistic however...
    There‘s only one way to beat Doomsday: having more style. You‘ve got Plow, Noxious Revival, Snapcaster, and the ability to Terminus at instant speed if they dawdle. We also have SB Ashiok which stops “search your library” preamble on Doomsday.

  3. #5403
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    There‘s only one way to beat Doomsday: having more style. You‘ve got Plow, Noxious Revival, Snapcaster, and the ability to Terminus at instant speed if they dawdle. We also have SB Ashiok which stops “search your library” preamble on Doomsday.
    How does creature removal stop Thassa's Oracle against a competent combo pilot?

    Meddling Mage naming Doomsday (or later Oracle) seems like a relevant line.

  4. #5404
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How does creature removal stop Thassa's Oracle against a competent combo pilot?

    Meddling Mage naming Doomsday (or later Oracle) seems like a relevant line.
    You Plow their devotion to 0, then you put a card back in their library with Noxious (all this is aided by Snapcaster). If they take too long they get their duder and you Terminus in response to the trigger b/c Teferi [+1] is in effect. Post-board you play a walker with far greater utility vs the format than Gideon [Ashiok].

    People in legacy freak out so much if someone “does the thing” - let them have their fun and focus instead on breaking the underlying presumption. An empty library is never empty, and putting a creature onto the battlefield for me to put back in your deck before the trigger resolves - deal!

    Every bit of time they waste, particularly in a post-board game, the worse things get for them. Deafening will turn off Veil abuse, Humility will kill them, and good luck searching library. You don’t want to be playing Doomsday against opponents who can turn off your FoW, put cards back in your deck, and then pack all the SB shenanigans. Games like these don’t end well for combo.

  5. #5405
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How does creature removal stop Thassa's Oracle against a competent combo pilot?

    Meddling Mage naming Doomsday (or later Oracle) seems like a relevant line.
    If you don't have other interaction than removal, we'll just make a pile that will consume the whole library. Meddling Mage alone doesn't do it either but it helps of course. If it names Doomsday, we can go off using Divining Witch, if it names the Oracle we can Unearth it, or beat the Meddling Mage and die trying. You want to multiply the number of axis you disrupt them on, it makes the pile more difficult to construct and/or slower to execute. Like Fox mentioned the list he's playing really has a lot of interactions for that matchup.

    Also don't just rely on the can't search clause from Ashiok, Resolving a Doomsday at that time still lets you search in graveyard (then empty most likely), to empty your library is relevant when you try to win off Thassa's Oracle :>

    Pay attention to the exile pile if you happen to lose game 1, it lets you know what variant and what cards they run: eg. Predict, Unearth, Veil, Teferi, Counterbalance.

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  7. #5407
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Looks like they got pretty lucky with matchups; they have no wrath effects and one of the worst PWs against Oko (JTMS). While it’s cool to recycle Shark with Heliod’s, it’s incredibly slow, and without any use for snow mana you kinda have to ask whether or not the basics should be split (non-snow names) and have the 1x land be a Field of the Dead, which is about as fast. With the problems in deck structure, you’re looking at averaging around a 2-3 record in leagues.

    The main thing to note is that Shark’nado can win a lot of games by letting you slam Standstill while behind on board (especially against turn 1 Delver). While that’s a game-changer, Delver is posed to fall off a cliff against 4c spamming Uro/Oko/Coatl. The banning of Lurrus really hurt the decks position as Oko numbers will climb and Delver dwindles.

    While you can potentially look at different things than Factory, you still need the wraths (3x Terminus, and 4x Portent maindeck) and Myth Realized is the cut...so you kinda still need the Factory for threat density (Sharks don’t play so nicely with wrath effects).

  8. #5408
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I have been testing some UBw Landstill, trying to fix the problems faced by UW and UWr Landstill/Standstill. A quick search only revealed BUGx thread, so this looks like the most fitting thread for it. The story so far with UW-heavy Landstill/Standstill:

    The problem areas for UW revolve largely on lack of slots (taken by Teferi 3cmc, Shark‘nado, Sevinne‘s) leading to slot-saving tactic of 4x Portent [or Ponder] + 3x Terminus to 2x Ponder, 2x Verdict. The general trend doesn‘t address Oko, can no longer wrath a Vial deck, and less importantly has dramatically decreased its ability to handle a TNN; all of this is set on a background of a lack of lifegain vs Burn/CounterBurn. The mana-requiring counterspell suite is also confused in UW since the banning of Wrenn (no longer able to change 2cmc options to Spell Snare). Counterspell isn‘t an option, Dovin‘s Veto is okay-ish at best, and going above the 2 FoN isn‘t fixing too many problems (bigger blowouts by Veil). The options out there from 1-2cmc are largely restricted to non-creature only targets, with a backdrop of dwindling wraths and backups like Council‘s Judgement.

    On UB-heavy Standstill:
    The removal has always been more polarizing than UW‘s absolute nature; while Innocent Blood is a pretty absurd (vs. Leo, TNN, Emmy, etc), Plow has always been a more consistent kill spell. The options of Terminus and Verdict are also generally more reliable than paying life up-front with Deluge...but the presence of Oko has been exploiting the holes in UW‘s removal (a problem made much worse by the banning of Lurrus).

    During this time black has picked up a number of tools including Dead of Winter (more castable vs Vial), an optimal mana-requiring counterspell (Drown in the Loch), maindeck’able anti-GY & lifegain/value (Cling to Dust), and the ability to reduce the polarity of its 1cmc removal (splitting Innocent Blood with Bloodchief's Thirst). This has all happened in colors with one of the best mana-fixing manlands (Creeping Tarpit), and in a time where players are spamming Carpet of Flowers (and Choke to a much lesser degree).

    For all the progress in UB, the PW options are all rather horrid even before we put them in a head-to-head vs Oko. This is where white has all the edges with Teferi passive protecting manland attacks and, mixed with black, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper - both seen in the GY by Sevinne’s. As a color set UB also has some of the worst anti-artifact hate, which emphasizes the need to play Karn, the Great Creator. Note how, in a time of anti-Oko REB spam, we have this favorable trend away from blue payoffs (especially payoffs above 3cmc).

    The trap would be thinking that the manabase can support Plow as your 1 mana removal, representing Drown on turn 2, and then going back to the heavy-white wraths in later turns. So if you can see Bloodchief/Innocent as Plow and Toxic/DoW as Terminus/Verdict, the UBw approach has little difference in play patterns as compared to UW/UWx. The loss of Heliod‘s and maindeck Karakas has definitely been felt however.

    The list I was running:
    Lands (22)
    2 Creeping Tar Pit
    2 Wasteland
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    2 Snow-Covered Swamp
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand

    Creature (3)
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Murderous Rider

    Enchants (7)
    4 Standstill
    3 Shark Typhoon

    PW (5)
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    2 Karn, The Great Creator
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

    Spells (23)
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Cling to Dust
    2 Drown in the Loch
    2 Innocent Blood
    2 Bloodchief's Thirst
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Collective Brutality
    1 Dead of Winter
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Tale's End

    Kill spells: 10 (+1 if counting Kaya)
    Lifegain: 5
    Color fixing: 17 // 14 // 11
    Cantrips: 6 (+3 if counting Shark‘nado)
    Chalice killers: 3 (+2 Tef bounce)
    Oko killers: 3 (+1 if counting Tale‘s End)
    TNN killers: 4 (+6 if counting killing on the stack)
    Uro to exile: 3 (+2 if counting Karn wish)
    Dreadhorde blanking [without killing]: 4 (+3 if counting Kaya and Karn wish)

    SB:
    1x Tormod's Crypt
    1x Canonist
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Powder Keg
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Liquimetal Coating

    1x Karakas
    1x Surgical
    2x Ashiok, Dream Render
    2x Unmoored Ego
    2x Plague Engineer

    For a while some VoD‘s of the deck can be seen (hc_fox); though I don‘t really recommend fighting mtgo’s UI and the chess clock, as it really gets in the way of enjoying and playing Landstill optimally. Trying to invert the deck to UWb runs into structural problems of too much reliance on having black on turn 2, and too few impactful black-requiring plays on 3cmc. As the singletons go, Kaya is amazing, Murderous Rider performed well, and Collective Brutality did it‘s job - all of these feed into the lifegain aspect (note though that Plow & Terminus would removes Kaya and Cling from lifegain targets). Tale‘s End is there to check the anti-Oko & anti-Thassa & anti-Veil boxes and consistently overperformed, though 2x would be too many. At no point did I ever want Eliminate, but a UWb build might value this card higher. Unmoored Ego has been quite good against SnT, Thassa decks, Lands, and Post; highly recommend in UBw or UWb.
    Last edited by Jander78; 10-19-2020 at 02:25 AM.

  9. #5409

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Very well laid out reasoning. I like it and may test it. Maybe black is secretly back.


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  10. #5410
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Interesting thoughts.

    Is Bloodchief's Thirst really better than Fatal Push? There are no relevant 2 cmc planeswalkers so both do the same thing on face value. Is Revolt harder to set up than paying 4 mana? Is the kicker mode mainly for Oko?

    Eliminate is a strong answer to Oko and most things, but unfortunately doesn't fit the 1cmc spot for curve and Snap utility.

    The other big thing, which you already address implicltly, is your Marit Lage matchup is MUCH worse by running Bloodchief/Innocent Blood+Drown+DoW over Plow+Karakas+Terminus.

    For BR Reanimator you can lucksack into Innocent Blood and maybe trick them into naming white with Iona by fetching Tundra, but overall the removal suite will have a much harder time with them. Hogaak won't be great either.

    For how UW can evolve to beat the Oko meta, check out my UW RipField thread. It's not Standstill, but it has some ideas that might be relevant. Oko beats fair creatures, artifacts and PWs but becomes a bad Garruk against an enchantment engine. Blue-free wincons dodge REB. Maindeck RiP shuts down all these GY value engines (Uro, Dreadhorde, Forager, Cling) while also policing decks like Reanimator and Hogaak. Energy Field helps with Vial aggro and TNN lower on curve than Verdict. You get to stay in white for Swords and Karakas. Biggest loss is no Snapcaster.

  11. #5411
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I doubt BR really wants to face 6 Force and 2 Cling maindeck. It gets far worse postboard with Needle, Surgical, Crypt, Karakas and then all of the 2-3 cmc cards. Hogaak, which is even slower isn't all that bad, and their whole combo is heavily reliant on Bridge from Below not getting nuked by a 0/0 shark.

    Marit Lage has some problems versus getting life above 20, and the longer plans of Teferi cutting off Crop Rot, and enabling instant speed edict with [+1].

    Fatal Push has the same problem as Innocent Blood, it's only good vs non-value dude strats. It is rare to run into decks where both Bloodchief and Innocent Blood can't contribute.

    Against SnowOko you have plenty of time to kick Bloodchief, while against Delver's Oko a card like Murderous Rider can be cast to invalidate threat of being Bolt'd out when necessary. All PWs can buy time against Oko's food tokens while the deck draws towards answers it has.

    The Eliminate cmc is the issue (same idea as trying to stop Elves using Abrade). UWb would gain a new effect by running Plow into Eliminate, but UBw just gains another copy of an effect it has three of, without any other gain of function.

    Edit: also have Wasteland to delay Depths into higher mana turns.
    Last edited by Fox; 10-10-2020 at 01:04 PM.

  12. #5412

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Great brewing. I agree that the flexibility of drown in the loch is great in a deck that spams cantrips less than miracles. Kaya is also an overlooked card and has looked great in dougesontwitch's and achilles27's maverick decks.

    Sorcery speed cards seems like they could be an issue in your standstill/snapcaster deck. Do you really want your sac effects to only kill marit lage when you have 3feri out? Has it been an issue with bloodchief's thirst?

    I don't understand your focus on killing TNN. The control killer of choice right now is klothys not TNN imo, and you don't have many answers to that.

    Additionally tales end looks suspect to me. If you want to increase the floor on stifle so you can maindeck it, drawing a card shadow of doubt seems much better than occassionally countering thalia/oko. And from a ceiling point of view winning the game vs doomsday seems better than maybe answering a oko/thalia.

    I'm no standstill expert, but what are your thoughts behind 0 ponder?

  13. #5413
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Life is a resource. Taking a hit for 20 doesn’t matter much if you still end up above zero, untap and do whatever (Kaya/Teferi minus, or edict effect) - remember that a lot of 20/20 strategies put out Reclaimers that you just kill and turn into +3 life in response to a 20/20 attack. Any Dark Depths strategy also has to respect an untapped Wasteland. In the case of the Depths deck, their first layer of Stage is halted by Wasteland, and their second layer (Hexmage) isn’t beating Innocent Blood. Plow certainly feels safer early, but it’s also soft to protection effects (Steppe) later; a Plow-using deck rarely has lifegain tools allowing it to take the hit.

    Given enough time there would be a scenario where they make a 20/20 and you have a Bloodchief in hand, but it is far more common to run into matchups where Innocent Blood (or Plow) isn’t the most useful spell. The head-to-head vs Turbo Depths is fine, and DnT (with it’s ~95% winrate vs Turbo Depths) is on the rise again, so not much reason to bend over backwards trying to fix something that isn’t really a problem. Depths out of R/G Lands is even easier to handle. Marit Lage is one of those things like dying to SnT’s Emmy/Grisel; if you lose it feels bad, but that feeling has nothing to do with overall outcome/which deck usually wins.

    On TNN, it doesn’t matter if the card is played or not; if you’re a real control deck, you construct the deck to beat TNN simply b/c the card concept exists. TNN has many names: Bogles, Progenitus, Geist of St. Traft, Hexdrinker, Emrakul, Archetype of Endurance, etc. On Klothys, this card can be fogged for a very long time by Teferi [-3], Teferi [+1] & Sevinnes, Kaya [+1] (has lifegain as well), Karn (Crypt wishing or Liquimetal -> animate Klothys -> murder), and completely blanked by Cling to Dust for a long time (remember Klothys has no surprise factor, they have to play it and pass the turn). I am very comfortable with this deck juggling a Klothys for extended periods while going about my business, and it’s legendary so they can’t stack him.

    Shadow of Doubt doesn’t hit Thassa. While it can work in response to the spell Doomsday, it doesn’t do anything vs Oops (or Paradigm Shift, Breakfast, Thoughtlash). It doesn’t kill Oko on the stack, and it doesn’t create intermediate moves like hitting a Fetch or protecting from Wasteland. The only thing Shadow of Doubt really has going for it is that it too beats the concept of Veil of Summer. While drawing a card is great, stopping a card/trigger is better for real control (drawing a random card doesn’t help you make the most informed decision in a moment). Also look over at the sideboard Ashiok x2 and recognize that the deck doesn’t need more “can’t search” clauses; we’ve got that covered. The only real debate is whether or not Tale’s End occupying the slot of the 3rd Drown is of overall benefit or not. Thassa was being encountered at rates exceeding 1 in 5 games (but mtgo is also inbred, and fast combo is overrepresented in leagues).

    On Ponder & Standstill variants, it’s absence is a common finding. The slots where another deck might run Ponder are occupied by Standstill (higher power, higher variance). If you don’t have a specific concept you’re pursuing (like “I want to wrath a Vial deck, ergo I will play 4x Portent for these Terminus”), then Ponder isn’t really doing you any favors. What use is drawing a sorcery speed cantrip if someone is going to crack Standstill, putting you to >7 cards in your end step?

    When we’re talking about the slot-saving trick where we swap from 4x Portent/3x Terminus to 2x Ponder/2x Verdict, the only real goal there is to help Vista & Strand fix by turn 4 for Verdict, mostly versus Delver. None of this matters against Vial, but getting Verdict fixed around Wasteland will save life - the concept here is that with a high enough life total, you don’t have to fight Bolt with blue cards.

    Edit: on sorc speed cantrips vs sorc speed removal & Standstill, the removal will recreate a boardstate favorable to followup Standstill. Keeping a card like Ponder, in the same scenario, pushes you closer to losing to soft permission as you have still have to fix the boardstate and re-deploy a Standstill while down a mana. If you’re really worried about discarding to hand size (despite instants like Murderous Rider and Drown), I’d be looking at cards like Discontinuity or Lat-Nam’s Legacy.

  14. #5414

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Life is a resource. Taking a hit for 20 doesn’t matter much if you still end up above zero, untap and do whatever (Kaya/Teferi minus, or edict effect) - remember that a lot of 20/20 strategies put out Reclaimers that you just kill and turn into +3 life in response to a 20/20 attack. Any Dark Depths strategy also has to respect an untapped Wasteland. In the case of the Depths deck, their first layer of Stage is halted by Wasteland, and their second layer (Hexmage) isn’t beating Innocent Blood. Plow certainly feels safer early, but it’s also soft to protection effects (Steppe) later; a Plow-using deck rarely has lifegain tools allowing it to take the hit.

    Given enough time there would be a scenario where they make a 20/20 and you have a Bloodchief in hand, but it is far more common to run into matchups where Innocent Blood (or Plow) isn’t the most useful spell. The head-to-head vs Turbo Depths is fine, and DnT (with it’s ~95% winrate vs Turbo Depths) is on the rise again, so not much reason to bend over backwards trying to fix something that isn’t really a problem. Depths out of R/G Lands is even easier to handle. Marit Lage is one of those things like dying to SnT’s Emmy/Grisel; if you lose it feels bad, but that feeling has nothing to do with overall outcome/which deck usually wins.

    On TNN, it doesn’t matter if the card is played or not; if you’re a real control deck, you construct the deck to beat TNN simply b/c the card concept exists. TNN has many names: Bogles, Progenitus, Geist of St. Traft, Hexdrinker, Emrakul, Archetype of Endurance, etc. On Klothys, this card can be fogged for a very long time by Teferi [-3], Teferi [+1] & Sevinnes, Kaya [+1] (has lifegain as well), Karn (Crypt wishing or Liquimetal -> animate Klothys -> murder), and completely blanked by Cling to Dust for a long time (remember Klothys has no surprise factor, they have to play it and pass the turn). I am very comfortable with this deck juggling a Klothys for extended periods while going about my business, and it’s legendary so they can’t stack him.

    Shadow of Doubt doesn’t hit Thassa. While it can work in response to the spell Doomsday, it doesn’t do anything vs Oops (or Paradigm Shift, Breakfast, Thoughtlash). It doesn’t kill Oko on the stack, and it doesn’t create intermediate moves like hitting a Fetch or protecting from Wasteland. The only thing Shadow of Doubt really has going for it is that it too beats the concept of Veil of Summer. While drawing a card is great, stopping a card/trigger is better for real control (drawing a random card doesn’t help you make the most informed decision in a moment). Also look over at the sideboard Ashiok x2 and recognize that the deck doesn’t need more “can’t search” clauses; we’ve got that covered. The only real debate is whether or not Tale’s End occupying the slot of the 3rd Drown is of overall benefit or not. Thassa was being encountered at rates exceeding 1 in 5 games (but mtgo is also inbred, and fast combo is overrepresented in leagues).

    On Ponder & Standstill variants, it’s absence is a common finding. The slots where another deck might run Ponder are occupied by Standstill (higher power, higher variance). If you don’t have a specific concept you’re pursuing (like “I want to wrath a Vial deck, ergo I will play 4x Portent for these Terminus”), then Ponder isn’t really doing you any favors. What use is drawing a sorcery speed cantrip if someone is going to crack Standstill, putting you to >7 cards in your end step?

    When we’re talking about the slot-saving trick where we swap from 4x Portent/3x Terminus to 2x Ponder/2x Verdict, the only real goal there is to help Vista & Strand fix by turn 4 for Verdict, mostly versus Delver. None of this matters against Vial, but getting Verdict fixed around Wasteland will save life - the concept here is that with a high enough life total, you don’t have to fight Bolt with blue cards.

    Edit: on sorc speed cantrips vs sorc speed removal & Standstill, the removal will recreate a boardstate favorable to followup Standstill. Keeping a card like Ponder, in the same scenario, pushes you closer to losing to soft permission as you have still have to fix the boardstate and re-deploy a Standstill while down a mana. If you’re really worried about discarding to hand size (despite instants like Murderous Rider and Drown), I’d be looking at cards like Discontinuity or Lat-Nam’s Legacy.
    I'll buy that your lifegain might justify innocent blood over triumph. But EOT snap triumph after they crack standstill seems much better than waiting till your turn.

    If you need the stifle effect for muxus & TO, nimble obstructionist has a better floor (flash flying blocker or cycles when irrelevant) as well as several upsides (can't be pact'd/pyro'd/fow'd, can clock op, doesn't pop standstill, can't be misdirected)

  15. #5415
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I assume you're talking about Liliana's Triumph; anyways decks generally aren't breaking Standstill on our EoT with Triumph targets [Depths certainly isn't]. Even if they do, there are very few flash creatures worth hitting with an instant speed kill spell in that scenario (Shark'nado will generally outpace these in a 1-on-1). I really don't want 2 mana spells in the deck that have zero text vs decks without non-value dudes; I already have 2 wraths maindeck which would already be dead draws in that spot; at every point I'm going to choose Collective Brutality over Triumph (which means it has to earn a slot in a Karn SB, so it's too narrow for consideration).

    Nimble costs 3 mana, so it's 1-2 turns too slow vs Thassa. I have flying blockers already well covered by 3x Shark'nado (such chump blocks expose 20/20s to sorcery speed window of Innocent Blood). It's cool that an opponent has to discard Nimble with Thoughtseize [Duress won't work], but the coolness factor doesn't counter Oko. Stifle has the same problem where it's faster than Tale's End, but it has the same anti-Oops + Thassa cost as the double-covered Cling to Dust; triple coverage via random Stifle doesn't make up for loss of ability to counter Oko.

    There are 4 slots for 1 mana removal (Bloodchief & Innocent Blood), 4 slots for 2 mana counter/kill (Drown & highly similar substitutions, like Tale's End and Coll. Brutality), 2 slots for 3cmc wrath, and 1 slot for lifegain/kill hybrid (Murderous Rider, and Coll. Brutality double dips into this category even though it's a Drown placeholder), and the 6x Force effects. After this interaction suite, you have the Standstill/Shark bit, a synergistic anti-Oko PW selection, and a sprinkle of value~consistency with Brainstorm/SCM/Cling/Sevinne's. So you have 5 general categories (5th being the lands), and the biggest non-land category [interaction suite] has 5 subdivisions.

    The two most important subdivisions of interaction are whether or not we're talking about 1 mana kill spells or 2cmc Drown/Drown-like cards. We're only ever comparing StP to Push to Innocent Blood to Bloodchief at the low end. At 2cmc every card has to demonstrate why it isn't just another copy of Drown in the Loch. When we bring up cards like Eliminate or Lilly's Triumph, they just kill things coming at the cost of being able to counter something, like say...SnT [so they're half of a Drown with a minor edge that can either tag a cheap PW or perhaps nab a 20/20]. At this 2 mana spot you're trying to hit every type of strategy played in the format, and Drown's comically broad wording provides the solid foundation to branch out from, should the list have access to black. When you select effects like Triumph/Eliminate in these slots, you're leaving yourself wide open to too many strategies. Real control can't really afford to build like this; it just turns into games you dropped at deck construction.
    --
    The one little wrinkle with Eliminate, is that if you dropped the the Blasts [Oko killers] of UWr and moved to UWb, there is a deck where you're considering Eliminate over CJ. If you do this, you're definitely not considering relying on Drown after coming off a turn 1 where access to Plow was most important. While Eliminate can come as early as turn 2, presenting the black is more of a turn 3+ plan, whereas Drown absolutely has to be there on turn 2 while still beating Wasteland. This play pattern of 3rd color only being actively integrated *after* the 2nd turn/2nd secure mana is a hugely important concept which wins games with the card Standstill. Abandoning this principle will reliably lead to game losses b/c you have played yourself into gamestates where topdecked Standstills can't be deployed reliably.
    Losing access to Blasts is pretty significant, so in a UWb approach you're saying that Eliminate impersonating CJ + Kaya, possibly Cling to Dust, and SB Plague Engi (a nod to the fact that Verdict can't be cast against Vial, alongside some reclaimed ground in the battle to kill TNN) is a move that increases win %. The issue with the UWb stuff is that you still can't play Creeping Tarpit and you can't reliably put dudes in the bin for Cling and Kaya to fix the lifegain problems of UW.

    @Reeplcheep do you have a more concise question where we aren't crossing over cmc/role subdivisions, or are sticking in one such subdivision? Did you mean Collective Brutality vs Triumph, rather than Innocent Blood?

  16. #5416

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I assume you're talking about Liliana's Triumph; anyways decks generally aren't breaking Standstill on our EoT with Triumph targets [Depths certainly isn't]. Even if they do, there are very few flash creatures worth hitting with an instant speed kill spell in that scenario (Shark'nado will generally outpace these in a 1-on-1). I really don't want 2 mana spells in the deck that have zero text vs decks without non-value dudes; I already have 2 wraths maindeck which would already be dead draws in that spot; at every point I'm going to choose Collective Brutality over Triumph (which means it has to earn a slot in a Karn SB, so it's too narrow for consideration).

    ...

    @Reeplcheep do you have a more concise question where we aren't crossing over cmc/role subdivisions, or are sticking in one such subdivision? Did you mean Collective Brutality vs Triumph, rather than Innocent Blood?
    Honestly I have difficulty understanding some of your unique aphorisms. I meant mostly that against creature decks they will often crack the standstill on their turn; not being able to snap removal on their turn seems quite award and effectively costs you 3 mana. If you want to compare to 1 cmc removal I guess the alternative to innocent blood would be fatal push?

  17. #5417
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Honestly I have difficulty understanding some of your unique aphorisms. I meant mostly that against creature decks they will often crack the standstill on their turn; not being able to snap removal on their turn seems quite award and effectively costs you 3 mana. If you want to compare to 1 cmc removal I guess the alternative to innocent blood would be fatal push?
    In this situation where they're cracking on their turn, they're probably not winning anyways. You have sorc speed 1cmc kill spells and sorcery speed wrath to undo whatever they put on board. Going back to the turn they cracked Standstill, you have 3 kill spells in the list which are already instant speed kill spells (2x Drown, 1x Murderous Rider) which all allow the utilization of higher mana amounts directly preceding a fresh untap step, and the Drowns can be doubled up by SCM once at a 6 mana state. Everything in this hypothetical is heavily slanted in favor of Standstill, and sorcery speed on the 1cmc removal isn't going to change the outcome. Overloading on instant speed kill spells [which again, we already have 3-of] for already favorable hypotheticals like these has diminishing returns. If we needed more instant speed kill spell, we'd remove a placeholder (Tale's End or Coll. Brutality) and replace with another Drown [because Drown isn't a 1-dimensional kill spell, it has text vs combo].

    Fatal Push is a StP with a huge amount of restrictions, and even if you choose to run Push over Innocent Blood you're losing %age points vs anything resembling shroud, hexproof, protection, and indestructible. Your matchup vs Depths, which was brought up a bit earlier, actually worsens b/c Urborg + Depths casting Hexmage still just loses to sorcery speed Innocent Blood. Putting all of this aside, if Plow + Terminus/Verdict isn't getting the job done, you're not going to start winning b/c you chose to play worse versions (Push + Toxic/DoW). Even when a 1cmc removal is instant speed, we're generally casting it at sorcery speed after a land drop is made to play around Daze. Standstill's gameplan is about warping tempo; you don't need to play all instants all the time when you're playing legacy at a not-normal speed.

  18. #5418

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Didn't have much time to test for EW so just played a brew for fun

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Porphyry Nodes
    4 Standstill
    2 Dovin's Veto
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Thirst for Meaning
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Dovin's Acuity
    2 Replenish
    4 Force of Will
    4 Shark Typhoon

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Tundra
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    3 Snow-Covered Plains
    5 Snow-Covered Island

    SB:
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 The Mirari Conjecture
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Dawn of Hope
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Humility
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Celestial Purge
    1 Supreme Verdict

    Score: 6-4
    Lands 1-2
    Lands 2-1
    RUG Delver 2-1
    Stryfo Yorion 1-2
    Elves 0-2
    RUG Delver 1-2
    RUG Delver 2-1
    RG Eldrazi 2-1
    UG Omni 2-0
    Snow 2-0

    Notes:

    *** Maindeck: ***
    - Eight 1-mana removal spells were very solid
    - Nodes into standstill is a good sequence and I feel that it's better than other cards people have played for this purpose (e.g. Myth Realized, I don't think the deck needs extra maindeck wincons beyond 4x Sharknado)
    - Thirst for Meaning was also great, instant allows you to hold up Negation/Veto. It's not a Faithless Looting that puts cards in the graveyard for Replenish, rather it's like a Predict/Brainstorm hybrid that is card advantage plus fixes your hand (e.g. Nodes is poor vs creature decks, Standstill can be poor if you are behind on the board etc)
    - 2 Replenish main is unnecessary, it's only good as a haymaker in control mirrors, this should be cut to 0-1 and can be played in SB instead. (Cut Mirari Conjecture, which is cute in theory but you don't really want your 5 mana anti-control card to be blast-vulnerable)
    - Teferi was kind of underwhelming, it felt too hard to protect and not enough of a payoff for tapping 3 mana in your own mainphase. Good in control mirror but otherwise underwhelming, would consider cutting to 0-1.
    - Dovin's Acuity overperformed, lifegain is important in the deck because you tank damage while you wait to kill opposing creatures with nodes. In the lategame it can be a card advantage engine against decks like RUG where you need some way to pull ahead (both on cards and out of bolt range) but don't want to play super expensive haymakers, and you also want to play RIP so you can't get value from the graveyard. In situations where it's clunky you can ditch it to Thirst. Would consider adding a 2nd one.
    - Dsphere pitching to Forces is good but being blast-vulnerable is not, unsure if this should just be e.g. Oblivion Ring or Cast Out instead and whether this effect belongs main or sb

    *** Sideboard: ***
    - I like the E-tutor package, at least 1 RIP, 1 Seal of Cleansing, Deafening Silence, B2B are all really solid. Stony Silence seems fine but idk if it's needed.
    - Humility is okay but most of the time you want to cycle your Sharknados rather than cast them so making your singular big shark into a 1/1 is not great. It's therefore reasonable that this slot should instead be Moat, which is maybe slightly worse against TKS and Allosaurus Shepherd but against a wide board it does actually stop you from dying and it also is an answer for Field of the Dead which I think is something that the deck probably wants. (If it's FotD out of a snow deck it also stops Uro / elks attacking, which is nice).
    - I think the deck does want some kind of alternate wincon to play around your opponent extracting your Typhoons but Dawn of Hope is too slow/low impact. If Humility is cut for Moat then it opens up the possibility of using something like Entreat instead. I don't know if there is an enchantment that does what I want for that slot (Luminarch Ascension is close, I also thought about Felidar Retreat)
    - Pithing Needle is solid, it's good just to name Oko against RUG
    Last edited by Jander78; 10-19-2020 at 02:26 AM.

  19. #5419
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Good work on the Fetches and having cards worth getting back with Sanctuary (most people have decks entirely made of 1-for-1s not worth rebuying). Don't like Plains #3, it's one too many. Ponder has significant problems with with Replenish and Thirst (14 enchants only); would suggest something like Cast Out in this spot (or any enchant that can Entomb itself from hand with cycling). You could also consider Omen of the Sea.

    4x Nodes is excessive; you're going to flood out on cards that potentially have no text; at least one of these slots goes to maindeck E-Tutor. The moment we have the cluster of E-Tutor, Teferi [-3], >1 Plains in a dominantly blue deck, and ideas of casting Verdict, we're adding 1x Astrolabe to the maindeck (lands to snow); if you're skipping on easy include, the lands should be split (snow & not-snow) allowing for 1x Field of the Dead - which is far better than Fail'idar Retreat. The deck is missing 1x Sevinne's Reclamation; you're not allowed to rely on Heliod's without an effect like this. Three slots of Dovin's Acuity and Thirst is getting onto the excessive side. While I see what Acuity does [daring a deck like Delver to give you an excuse to cast a mainphase FoW in the mid-late game], I have to imagine there's a better way to work in lifegain.

    I dislike the lack of >1 wincon, but if we're leaving the maindeck idea mostly alone: -1 Plains +1 Island or Karakas, all lands to snow, -2 P Nodes +1 E Tutor +1 Astrolabe, -4 Ponder +4 Cast Out, -1 Veto/Acuity/D Sphere/Thirst (choose one, probably Thirst) +1 Sevinnes. Really wouldn't suggest bringing something like this to a paper meta routinely, as you kinda just die on the spot to Slaughter Games/Surgical/Extirpate, if someone doesn't like playing against your deck. Cling to Dust would also be a huge problem for you, and it shows up often in maindecks with Oko.

    For SB: -2 E Tutor (one in the main is enough), -1 RiP, -1 Mirari Conjecture (card is bad, real bad). Needle, Celestial Purge, and Dawn of Hope all look poor. I wouldn't cut Humility given how poor your deck is vs SnT; like maybe you could cut if you have Cast Out x4 to Show in. Ashiok should be in the SB vs Uro, GSZ, Post, Storm, Reanimator, etc & as a second wincon. Any time we start seeing lack of wincon and nonsense like Celestial Purge, you kinda have to ask why we're not adding in a little red for Nahiri, the Harbinger (ult target either Mentor or Emmy) - there's better ways to deal with Klothys and still address underlying structural flaws. If Delta is moved to Tarn, you can get away with just SB Mountain since you also have effectively 2 copies of Astrolabe.

    Edit: just want to put this by itself - you need to be doing whatever you can to turn white mana into blue fixing, while advancing your gameplan. Cast Out uses white mana to draw into the blue, E Tutor/Astro does the same. Note how we're adding in a self-Entombing enchant for Replenish with anti-SnT/anti-REB/anti-Oko text, giving Teferi a [-3] target (Astrolabe), and opening a line of play where we go turn 1 EoT E Tutor for Shark'nado -> turn 2 Standstill. All engine, all the time, all with better mana; this is how Standstill is built.

  20. #5420

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Don't like Plains #3, it's one too many.
    This is probably true

    Ponder has significant problems with with Replenish and Thirst (14 enchants only); would suggest something like Cast Out in this spot (or any enchant that can Entomb itself from hand with cycling). You could also consider Omen of the Sea.
    This is a reasonable concern but in practice it doesn't feel like a problem. I tested Cast Out but 3W is so expensive that it's very hard to cast so it's basically always cycled, so it's just a W tax to replace itself. Replenish doesn't need that much extra help to swing a game when it resolves assuming you can return at least 1 Sharknado. Thirst seems to work pretty consistently with this number of enchants and if you have to discard 2 it's not the end of the world. I wouldn't be against adding something like Omen of the Sea or Cast Out over some of the other cards that were underperforming but I don't think it's correct to cut Ponder.

    4x Nodes is excessive; you're going to flood out on cards that potentially have no text
    Again this is a reasonable concern but I didn't find this to be a major issue in practice because enough of the format plays creatures and you have Brainstorm / Thirst to fix it. As I'm sure you are aware the abundance of early removal is more important for this archetype to avoid being frequently stuck with uncastable standstills. In matchups where these cards suck you can standstill with impunity, which kind of makes up for it

    at least one of these slots goes to maindeck E-Tutor. The moment we have the cluster of E-Tutor, Teferi [-3], >1 Plains in a dominantly blue deck, and ideas of casting Verdict, we're adding 1x Astrolabe to the maindeck (lands to snow)
    When the consensus best deck is a tempo deck that snowballs off thin margins I don't think it's correct to play this kind of utility card disadvantage effect, especially when you don't have maindeck haymakers to search with it

    if you're skipping on easy include, the lands should be split (snow & not-snow) allowing for 1x Field of the Dead - which is far better than Fail'idar Retreat.
    I'm not convinced there are enough different lands for this to be reliable even with a snow split, but even then the non-flying zombies conflict with the moat idea. Unlike the other decks playing this card you also don't have uro/exploration for extra land drops. (At least it's nice that it's not a spell so it goes through standstill, but if I wanted to play something that was vulnerable to wasteland then it could even be idk, Celestial Colonnade)

    The deck is missing 1x Sevinne's Reclamation; you're not allowed to rely on Heliod's without an effect like this.
    I really liked Sevinne's Recalamation in a different deck I was testing that played History of Benalia and Estrid's Invocation. In this deck it can't return Shark Typhoon so with 2W you are mostly overpaying for Standstill or Nodes which doesn't seem great. I agree that it's a strong card but it seems maybe a bit weak without a glut of good 3-drops.

    Three slots of Dovin's Acuity and Thirst is getting onto the excessive side. While I see what Acuity does [daring a deck like Delver to give you an excuse to cast a mainphase FoW in the mid-late game], I have to imagine there's a better way to work in lifegain.
    Well if you can think of it then let me know. The other option I considered was playing like 2 SFM and a Batterskull which I think could be ok

    I dislike the lack of >1 wincon, but if we're leaving the maindeck idea mostly alone: -1 Plains +1 Island or Karakas, all lands to snow, -2 P Nodes +1 E Tutor +1 Astrolabe, -4 Ponder +4 Cast Out, -1 Veto/Acuity/D Sphere/Thirst (choose one, probably Thirst) +1 Sevinnes. Really wouldn't suggest bringing something like this to a paper meta routinely, as you kinda just die on the spot to Slaughter Games/Surgical/Extirpate, if someone doesn't like playing against your deck. Cling to Dust would also be a huge problem for you, and it shows up often in maindecks with Oko.
    The only thing I can fully get behind here is the Plains swap. Cutting ponders for cast out is putting too many eggs in the replenish basket which I think the deck should move away from. The etutor/astrolabe idea just doesn't make sense to me. If I was going to cut a card for Sevinne's it would definitely be 1 Replenish, 2 replenish + Sevinne is too much expensive value cards.

    For SB: -2 E Tutor (one in the main is enough), -1 RiP, -1 Mirari Conjecture (card is bad, real bad). Needle, Celestial Purge, and Dawn of Hope all look poor.
    Yea Mirari was basically just a fun of and I already agreed that Dawn of Hope was lacking. 2 RIP is solid I think because it's good against Hogaak/Dredge/RUG. Purge is good against Arcanist/Klothys but also was good against lands (Marit Lage and Valakut Exploration).

    I wouldn't cut Humility given how poor your deck is vs SnT;
    Will consider this going forward

    Ashiok should be in the SB vs Uro, GSZ, Post, Storm, Reanimator, etc & as a second wincon.
    Not totally convinced about this but it seems worth considering. I don't know if it's satisfactory as a "second wincon" though

    Any time we start seeing lack of wincon and nonsense like Celestial Purge, you kinda have to ask why we're not adding in a little red for Nahiri, the Harbinger (ult target either Mentor or Emmy) - there's better ways to deal with Klothys and still address underlying structural flaws. If Delta is moved to Tarn, you can get away with just SB Mountain since you also have effectively 2 copies of Astrolabe.
    Not sure how a 2 mana instant speed removal is more nonsensical than adding a 3rd colour for Nahiri the Harbinger

    Edit: just want to put this by itself - you need to be doing whatever you can to turn white mana into blue fixing, while advancing your gameplan. Cast Out uses white mana to draw into the blue, E Tutor/Astro does the same.
    This is not a very meaningful/relevant/necessary thing to aim for, I don't think. The mana is good enough already

    Note how we're adding in a self-Entombing enchant for Replenish with anti-SnT/anti-REB/anti-Oko text
    Adding Cast Outs is ~fine~ but again I don't think it's correct to cut ponder and you don't want to lean into Replenish so much because in a lot of matchups it's not a very good gameplan to aim for

    giving Teferi a [-3] target (Astrolabe)
    This is another upside for cards like Omen of the Sea, I agree this is relevant but not a major consideration

    opening a line of play where we go turn 1 EoT E Tutor for Shark'nado -> turn 2 Standstill. All engine, all the time, all with better mana; this is how Standstill is built.
    If the board is empty you can just slam the turn 2 Standstill with no Typhoon. There are 4 in the deck and you will draw it eventually

    Edit: another thing I just realised is that the deck can also play Kaheera as companion, which might be okay on its own merits and you probably also get a small amount of equity in g1 mulligans from bluffing that you're playing ANT

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