Anyways, apart from criticizing other players, I think we should explore more into the red splashes that Citrus and a few others have been discussing. With the success of Ultimate walker for example that runs cards like red elemental blast and ajani vengeant i was wondering if us landstill players could also abuse that power in a finely tuned red splash deck. In the mirror, burns would be great against opposing planeswalkers and as if i remember mossivo said once "REB> format". It seems just as viable as a black splash in which case we splash to tap into the power of vindicate and extirpate
I have too. This was when he first introduced Disk into his old list. I was asking him for advice on whether I should run Disk in a Thresh heavy metagame. He told me to cut it.Originally Posted by mossivo1986
It's been known that DIF plays it more as a control deck. But at the same time, I think it's less about Theory and more about DIF just not caring about playing Landstill in general really. He did essentially turn Landstill into more of a proactive deck later on, and it's hard to pin him down as a person who generally approaches Landstill as more of a control deck compared to that of a Control-Aggro deck.now i took his last list and tuned the shit out of it. tuned it so much that at gp chicago i was running over lists that didn't even involve the strategy i was attemting to remove from the populous (graveyard abuse) i also played the archtype with a much more proactive strategy then anything anyone else has been piloting that i've personally seen. throughout all of this i realized that d.i.f's theory although a solid strategy was wrong for the mid-west american meta as a whole. this is around when i started talking to geoff even though i strongly disagreed with his style of redundancy over utility.
Geoff has been using the Control-Aggro approach for as long as I know of him playing 3 DoJs in the maindeck. But if you look at Geoff's build, some cards are essentially in the Cunning Wish slot, but it's not Cunning Wish. Yes, I'm referring to EE and especially Vindicate. For Wish to work, you need to answer a certain situation. For Vindicate to work, it also depends on the situation. Sometimes you even point Vindicate at Lands, and that sure as hell isn't working within his redundancy code. In fact, that sort of contradicts it. But again, Geoff is an amazing technical player. He knows when to step off his auto-pilot approach to the deck and just turn it into a real deck.
Also, I think for your style, talking to Geoff has been the better choice. You play your deck proactively, but Geoff plays it fucking aggressively. The word aggressive is rarely used to describe Landstill, but whenever I talk to him about how to play certain decks, he's always turned me on to how DoJ should be approached. It's quite genius. As for the rest, your deck has been redundant for the most part, and every card can be Tutored. So all in all, your deck is essentially a redundant deck with ways to tutor up some utility. You sure as hell aren't playing an outdated underpowered Keeper with 18 singleton utility cards.
So have I. In fact, I even have a sideboard entirely dedicated to Cunning Wish pre-board and post-board.heck i even worked with geoff initially on a build with more utility. but it obviously was not in the cards.
That sounds so unnecessary. Why can't you just win with Elspeth? In fact, Humility sounds a lot more attractive against Merfolk compared to Disk.it is only when gustah told me to run disk as a 1 of for utility and i later understould with his crazy italian ass that it was the inevitability that elspeth achieves with disk (or academy ruins) that truly just nullifies a majority of the decks in this current format. this ranges from stax to merfolk and honestly the model im current
If you saw the Sideboard for my UGWB build, it has 8 singletons with 3 Negates and 2 Grips in addition to those singleton Instants.my model may not be as redundant as geoffs but i personally feel like i have a much wider reach then his deck does. the only thing id like to see happen in my version is a highlander slot for iona/ dredge decks and im not even sure thats at all neccesary. i could easily pull 1 cb out of the board and switch it with a relic but i think thats a bad choice.
And your deck is redundant for the most part. Have you seen how the only singletons you have are Humility and Disk? They essentially serve the same purpose, but Humility is just better.
It's not criticizing, it's exploring why players like certain cards. I sure as hell wouldn't give up on the Fact or Fiction debate (if it ever popped up again).
I fully agree with discussing the possibilities of Sideboard REBs as well as the addition of maindeck Ajani Vengeants. Especially the SBed REBs. Red Elemental Blast > formatI think we should explore more into the red splashes that Citrus and a few others have been discussing. With the success of Ultimate walker for example that runs cards like red elemental blast and ajani vengeant i was wondering if us landstill players could also abuse that power in a finely tuned red splash deck. In the mirror, burns would be great against opposing planeswalkers and as if i remember mossivo said once "REB> format". It seems just as viable as a black splash in which case we splash to tap into the power of vindicate and extirpate
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your probobly right about me talking to geoff being better for me. simply because i figured out that i was getting away with murder in alot of situations where i should have just been cold to said matchup.
and yes the 3rd decree was absolutely the right call but it wasnt because i fealt like one needed to use them more aggresively. it was because the first one (generally) feels like s 5_6 mana tempo play. it didn't and doesn't so much stand as a win condition the first time around.
ill talk to you in private messege about dif but not like this.
It depends on what match up you want to see DoJs in. Against Merfolk or Zoo, I tend to use it like you said, a Tempo Card. But because I run 3 copies total, like why you started running 3 copies I know that I will eventually top deck into a DoJ and proceed to hard cast it when the opposing aggro deck is under exhaust. But depends on how fast and how well I can exhaust those decks, the first copy will eventually be the winning copy. They shine even more post-board. I had Zoo decks in testing Fireblasting one of my Angels and hoping to topdeck a burn card so that Mancer + bolt can kill my other Angel or else he'll die next turn.
Against decks like Aggro Loam or Survival, I tend to like hardcasting DoJs early because they have very little answers to flying 4/4s. Especially if you run FoWs and Spell Snares to stop Survivals and Wishes from resolving.
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I wasn't saying crucible was a bad card. I was asking why there was only one copy in the 75. This intrigues me and like the singleton Elspeth seems very random.
@Disk issue:
If I understand correctly, Disk is more or less in the same slot as WoG (and possibly humility for those who run it)?
If so I think I'll stick with disk. In my experience it is more useful to be able to blow up their board an their end of turn step to set up something in your own following turn (threat + standstill, ...).
WoG is not nearly as useful as I hoped against goblins because it's not instant and a well-timed warchief can ruin your day. Disk on the other hand costs you a turn you very seldomly have.
In the end (and in my meta) it's the flexibility (being able to hit artifacts/enchantments et al) and the colorlessness that makes me choose 2 disk in my 75.
@Citrus concerning hardcasting DoJ.
Thanks for the explanation on that one. I always felt unsure when/how to use decree in the late game. I think I err to much on the safe side instead of just going beatdown late game...
Is that also what is meant my Konsultant playin aggressive? Tapping out midgame (or so) for 2-3 angel tokens? Is 2 tokens enough against decks without sweepers (supposing you have no protection)?
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
It depends on the situation. Most of the times when I do go for the Angel beat down, I tend to have FoW in my hand or two untapped lands for (or bluffing) Counterspell.
Not exactly tapping out, but definitely planned assault. Sometimes he'll hold FoW in his hand or he'll leave a land or two untapped holding up a Spell Snare or Counterspell. Usually keeping mana open when you feel that you should go for the throat is helpful, especially against Aggro Loam or Survival. Thankfully, Spell Snare counters Burning Wish, Survivals and Devastating Dreams.Is that also what is meant my Konsultant playin aggressive? Tapping out midgame (or so) for 2-3 angel tokens? Is 2 tokens enough against decks without sweepers (supposing you have no protection)?
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Not to derail the current discussion because I find it very interesting, but this past week I ran up against a BWG Rock-ish deck with Confidant, Tombstalker, Finks, Goyf, Vindicate, Deed, Wasteland, etc. I found the matchup to be almost impossible. While I could answer his threats for quite some time, he had an equally easy time answering mine (note: he is a very, very good player). He held Vindicate for Elspeth, he played Deed proactively to keep my Factories/Decrees in check, he sat on Wasteland for the same reason and he ran his threats out one at a time so I had to go 1-for-1 on each of his creatures. Because he had multiple answers to all of my threats, I was NEVER able to apply any pressure and he eventually won a war of attrition. I brought in 4 Path and 4 Counterbalance and it didn't help game 2 (although I never saw CB). I was also behind on cards for most of the game. Whenever I resolved a Standstill he'd play Hymn into it. This was definitely a time when I missed Fact or Fiction, because the match played like a control mirror. How do I win this matchup? (FYI - I was playing a Cunning Wish build without Vindicate)
I'd side in 3 paths, 2 relics and a crucible and pull out my wraths and EEs. They have relatively average amounts of threats that we can deal with them one at a time. what bothers me are when stronghold and eternal witness gets online... which is why i run relics and paths. I've also tried Geoff's new sb of 1 of counterspell as the 4th counterspell in game two. I side out a force in game 2 for that 4th counterspell and it really seems like the right play. They don't have a really explosives turn 1 so the card advantage you get from counterspell over force of will will help you later if they get their graveyard recursion online.
I honestly don't think Rock should be a real problem, especially if they're not running loam, since you have all the CA you need to answer everything in a long game which it will most likely become and stuff like Elspeth or Jace truly shines since they can stick around for ages.
Hello friend.
Planeswalkers are indeed pretty good here.
I'm sorry if it's been mentioned before (I didn't see it), but has anyone ever considered playing with Gifts Ungiven in Landstill? Is FoF just better?
Gifts for something like > Crucible, Ruins, EE, Reconstruction/Regrowth/Grim Discovery. Seems pretty solid.
Just curious : By using RED in landstill, aren't we making ourselves vulnerable to BEB (in the Merfolk MU)? Would a mix of WOG and Firesprout be a better idea?
RED/PYRO seem the nuts against blue...
Robert
I can see the power of Red Elemental Blast, but I don't see the need for Firespout. If your manabase is stable enough, getting to enough lands to cast WoG, even through taxing effects like Daze and Cursecatcher, shouldn't be a problem. Postboard, with 8 1cc spot removal effects (StP/PtE), I don't see why people are finding themselves needing Firespout for aggro, when Wrath of God is a better overall sweeper. Oh well.
@ Citrus God: Thanks for filling in alot of responses for me, unfortunatly it is pretty rare that I have time to get on and post these days. Obviously we have talked some and after going over some of my strategies with you, you have a pretty good idea of what I am doing and why. I think you covered all of the questions posed, thanks. If anybody had something else just pm it to me and i'll get back to you when I get a chance.
I was incredaibly happy with the list from last week. Alot of stuff looks random but it is extensively tested, probably about 500 games against the top 15 decks over the last month and every match up is in Landstill's favor except Ichorid. That's primarily because of the difficulty in winning game one and if they get a solid hand and I don't it can be hard to take game 2 and game 3. Stuff like the 1 Crucible and 4th Wrath and Counter in the SB look random but they are all part of thouroughly developed SB strategies that cover every deck I'd expect to see and the random shit that's out there.
My Abbreviated and much delayed tournament report:
Round one vs Burn.
This was a deck of 17-land, 4 Grim Lavamncer and 33 Bolt effects and 8 Volcanic fallout effects. I took game one at 1-life but the only out they had would have been a third volcanic fallout due to my double counter in hand at the end of the game. Bring in more counter's and open hand double standstill, good game.
Round 2 vs Merfolk.
Lose game one, sb heavy for the Merfolk plan and blow him out game 2 and 3.
Round 3 VS Ultimate Walker {the guy that ended up winning the event}
Lose 0-2. Not knowing his list at the time I dind't realize how fortunate he was with the cards he drew against but he nuetered 1 Fof and 3 Standstills during the course the first ten turns of game one and had double ancestral visions. I end up losing to Crucible+Waste with Academy Ruins. Game 2 he go's for an early Ajani Vengeant and wins the counter war due to Reb, I don't find a vindicate in time and he keeps tapping down my factory. After seeing his list I don't know if it would turn out the same if we played more games but he crushed me in those two games.
Round 4 vs Merfolk.
Win 2-0, he is playing U/W with STP and I take game 1 and crush him game 2.
Round 5 vs Mirror.
I win 2-0.
Round 6 Draw.
Top 8 vs U/w Merfolk again, same guy.
lose 0-2
Game one he gets Triple Mutavault, Triple Fow, Double Waste and a Stifle. I die to Mutavault although I did manage to kill two of them I couldn't resolve an answer for the third in time.
Game 2 I keep a semi risky hand. My only relevent colered mana is a tundra but I have a factory and the swamp plus i have brainstorm and preacher and plague. I keep, don't hit any more lands and end up playing the tundra turn 3, he has the waste and so i brainstorm but the only land i hit is another factory with no shuffle effects. i effectively time stretch him for the loss.
The list did what I wanted it to, Merfolk will never be an auto win with our mana base and the ultimate walker match up is like playing against UWr landstill but worse. Snare has no targets and ee is practicaly worthless. The deck effectively plays around the meta like it was designed to do.
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Anyone have thoughts on trying to beat that Ultimate Walker deck?
I played it twice last weekend, only beat it once (barely) in a grueling 47 minute game one, whats good here?
Red Elemental Blast. :)
Actually, it's slow as balls, but it can't be countered. I'm saying Aeon Chronicler would be decent in this match up. Crucible of Worlds helps too, but you have to resolve it.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Indeed. Spell Pierce is also an option and Planar Cleansing (although I don't think anyone uses that and I probably wouldn't want it in the sb).
telemins performsnce
Duress or Thoughtsieze would be huge against Ultimate Walker.
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Combo and really any control, too. Is this an idea worth expanding on?
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Ive run them before, they really only shine against control but they are decent against combo.
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