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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #5361
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Fox, what is your thinking with running Portent over Ponder? Is it just to miracle Terminus on their upkeep? Or is because you can target them and hopefully stick them with running dead draws? Or something else that I'm totally missing? Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  2. #5362
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Aether Vial is legal, so Vedict is uncastable (vs DnT it costs ~6 mana, dead by turn 6), thus Terminus. As you've noted, Portent is better for setting up a Terminus than Ponder. We can spend a moment to note that New Teferi can turn on Ponder-Terminus, but this is a little bit magical christmas'y (also at that point we should be nearing 6 mana, and just +1 New Teferi and instant-speed hardcast Terminus).

    Fringe benefits of Portent:
    -Draw through Leo/Narset/Labyrinth
    -Enter opponent's turn with 8 in hand
    -Magical christmas New Teferi +1, respond to discard spell by casting [last card in hand] Portent
    -Opponent on the draw mulls, scry to top -> Portent target opponent, shuffle (or dunk)
    -Big Teferi -3 -> Portent target opponent, shuffle
    -Has text vs Sterling Grove/Lim-Dul's Vault/Personal Tutor-type effects

    Ponder can look for a land [most often] and play it that turn. Being turbo-linear makes Ponder a more powerful card, but it has pretty much zero off-label uses (at least without New Teferi on board). Ponder will favor combo (to include Counterbalance combo, aka miracles), and/or lower land count decks needing to find land #2 and play it on curve. In the same way JTMS favors lower land decks with dead combo/combo-ish draws (ex. redundant CB, Myth Realized in the midgame, SnT pieces), while Big Teferi favors higher land count, draw-go control. Just going to quickly re-emphasize that a UW MythStill build is a better home for Ponder + JTMS, and I'd still recommend Terminus there.

    While my build is about as draw-go control as you can get in UW, it has a very specific force multipliers it is trying to hit - namely that Big Teferi, Azcanta, and Standstill all find eachother. Once they all meet up you're potentially out-drawing an opponent 7-to-1 (draw step, +1 tick, double Azcanta activations, Standstill crack), in a UW shell that is designed to not deck itself. Big Teferi is the most difficult piece to open up with, and Portent allows me (at 5 lands) to set up & then cast Terminus on their turn, untap/draw and play Teferi. Ponder has more variance at this stage in the game, not only because of the 1/2 turn delay - it also would require 6 mana on the turn I would ideally like to go for Big Teferi (+1 from Terminus). Once you get to late game, even Portent just used as blindly draw a card + force opponent to topdeck their worst card will win games that Ponder can't.

  3. #5363
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Thank you for the insight
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  4. #5364

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    @Fox Oh I see. Thank you very much for the good explanation !

  5. #5365
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Failed to fire another win-a-dual series due to entry costs discouraging regulars unfortunately. Luckily another store in town was hosting $5 legacy around the same time so I got 4 rounds in.
    -R1 vs casual/budget mill deck (2-0) both games ended with Teferi ult. New player to the format, great personality and seemed to genuinely enjoy his first legacy experience; hopefully he sticks with it and buys into the format.
    -R2 vs DnT (0-2) mulls to 6 and 5 to find any land in either game.
    -R3 vs Burn (2-1) game 1 Mentor gets there with 1 life left. Game 2 pretty sure I died on like turn 3. Game 3 flash bear (C. Priest) and Factory get there, aided by their Vortex.
    -R4 vs Sneak and Show (2-1) opponent has bad opening hand luck all three games; mulls to 6 and 6 and 5. Game 1 he got there, but in games 2/3 he runs into too much hate and generally died to Humility (either in play or being priced into FoW E-Tutor since I'd hold it in hand waiting for SnT to resolve).

    While testing new Teferi (loss of 2x Blessed Alliance) probably means I have to find room for CoP:Red in the board. That said, I'll probably be trying -4 slot SBs once Vista is out (+1 Mountain, +3 REB effect). New Teferi is good enough for further 1/1 split testing, but the board is going to be getting pretty congested. I really dislike the idea of CoP:Red, but I don't know if there's a better option with the SB space, so open to suggestions there.

  6. #5366
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I think my record is something like 1-84 against Burn.
    It's mostly unwinnable in my mind, so I've been really tempted with CoP:Red or something like Aegis of Honor.
    Impressed you were able to even get one game win in, let alone the match.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #5367
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Do you think Hall of Heliod's Generosity is worth a colorless mana source? Recurring Standstill seems super awesome, but I'm worried it's greedy and only serves a winmore role when it does work. Losing a Search to countermagic or a Wasteland and having an option to return it isn't nothing also.
    I already have a copy of Noxious Revival, and it does come up to let them crack the Standstill, counter their threats, deploy my own and recur the Standstill to lock them out with the advantage.
    Any thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    If we have some sick enchantments like humility to bring back, i'd totally be down to play it. Just bringing back standstill actually sounds almost good enough. Assuming of course that you're control elements are doing their jobs.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  9. #5369

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    It's probably not really worth it but if you plan on building on Hall of Heliod's Generosity more you could also try Soul Snare which has been discussed for U/W Landstill again and again because it allows to drop Standstill even in unfavorable board states. Hall might be a reason to give this some serious consideration.

  10. #5370
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    If you're dead-set on using Heliod's, I'd pick an enchant that deals with TNN + Mother of Runes over Soul Snare; preferably one that can also kill >1 thing, or keeps them from playing a second threat (Porphyry Nodes). In terms of what you can get away with in terms of colorless lands, you have 6 slots at most to work with (3x are Factory). Add in Heliod's and you're either not playing any Wasteland, or you're only playing 2x (which isn't that reliable). The matchup against Dark Depths will worsen significantly. I still think I'd rather have recursion potential sitting on the 1x Noxious Revival since it can buy back the wincons (PWs), offer interaction, be recurred with SCM, and be found by Azcanta.

  11. #5371

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Hi everyone, I got into Magic again after a very long break (~10 years), my favourite deck back then was UW Landstill with counter-top combo. After checking new cards and sifting a bit through this thread I tried to assemble a new list considering some budget constraints (no dual lands, tabernacle, etc).
    A pretty interesting card is Narset, Parter of Veils, perfect for mirror matches with other control decks, and can help Counterbalance in case of a missing Top. I tried to board a flexible amount of removals both for creatures and other permanents, a couple of enlightened tutor would definitely help to pick the best artefact in every scenario but I can't decide what to exclude.
    Going to the miracles, Terminus is very interesting and surprisingly bad when not instantly played, I just keep it for aggro, whilst Entreat the Angels is a perfect wincon for this deck.
    Both Teferi, Time Raveler and Ashiok, Dream Render are on my watchlist, at least for the side.



    Lands (23)
    3x Island
    2x Plains
    4x Hallowed Fountain
    1x Steam Vents
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Polluted Delta
    1x Academy Ruins
    1x Karakas
    4x Mishra's Factory
    1x Wasteland

    Counters (10)
    3x Force of Will
    1x Misdirection
    2x Spell Pierce
    2x Counterspell
    2x Counterbalance

    Artifacts (6)
    2x Sensei's Divining Top
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Vedalken Shackles

    Removals (8)
    1x Detention Sphere
    2x Wrath of God
    1x Terminus
    4x STP

    Misc (13)
    1x Fact or Fiction
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Standstill
    2x Mission Briefing
    2x Jace TMS
    1x Entreat the Angels

    Last edited by Anelito; 07-13-2019 at 05:11 PM. Reason: incorrect card name

  12. #5372

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Mate,

    Top is now banned...

    Bye

  13. #5373
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Played some legacy tonight with a few modifications to old list:
    +1 new Teferi, -1 Mentor
    +2 Snare, -2 Cspell
    +1 basic Island, -1 Tundra
    +4 Vista, -4 [not-Strand] Fetch

    SB changes:
    +1 Ashiok, Dream Render, -1 new Teferi (moved to main)
    +2 Hydroblast, -1 Disenchant, -1 Surgical
    +1 Aegis of Honor, -1 CJ

    There's a lot I don't like with Snare (mainly SnT), but we're at a point in legacy where you kinda can't not play it b/c Dreadhorde/Goyf/Wrenn/Snapcaster. Snare is at least friendlier to higher land counts and/or less mana-intensive payoff cards (a card like SFM for example). Snare probably a good deal less useful in a deck like miracles which has paired lower land counts [with >8 cantrips] and high cost payoffs - they have a more pressing need to cantrip towards that mana (i.e. tapping out of Snare on turn 1).

    Cutting down to one Mentor definitely makes the solitary Mentor better (+1 prowess generating card), but the lowered odds of finding it will eventually cause losses to Burn and TNN. On the plus side, it's a little less miserable to only have one in the face of Plague Engineer's recent popularity. Getting new Teferi #2 in this slot has the benefit of turning Factories into better maindeck PW assassins. The prevalence of Wrenn necessitates the 2x Hydroblast, so I just threw the last slot into even more anti-burn w/ Aegis rather than having a random anti-TNN singleton (thanks for suggestion @PirateKing).

    Vista is absurdly overpowered, and you're just racking up statistically significant losses by not playing it with this deck. Pairing this change with -1 Tundra has also noticeably reduced death by Tundra opening hands. As long as Wrenn is clogging up legacy, it's probably incorrect to try 2x Strand/2x Tarn/4x Vista + SB Mountain & REBs configurations.

    Ashiok is mostly a test card, but my games against newer iterations of value piles turn rapidly into meaninglessly long, tedious, and boring affairs which generally end in one player milling out. The yard nuking and mill on Ashiok might be one of the more useful tools to speed these games along. Bonus utility vs GSZ/KotR, Reanimator, Loam, and Infernal Tutor/PiF/Cabal Rit. Between all the removal, Karakas, and maindeck permission, I figure that CP and RiP's absolute hate is probably good enough for Reanimator.

    ------

    R1 vs TES (2-0): game 1 there is a questionable Thoughtseize taking Teferi over a FoW; of note his Empty for 8 gobbos was dealt with by Azcanta ramping to hardcast Terminus mana. Game 2 he mulls to 5 and will never have time to get out from under 3 Wastelands and Powder Keg killing Petal/Chrome Mox/Mox Opal.

    R2 vs Maverick (1-1): game 1 opponent can't recover from 2x Terminus but plays about 10 fairly pointless turns until Mentor forces the concession - were this competitive REL, I would have held Mentor and elected to win by Teferi ult into using Teferi to never deck while they either conceded or milled out without any permanents. Game 2 opponent plays very well and is able to keep me from finding a window to cast Humility effectively.

    R3 vs DnT (2-0): game 1 they have double Vial hand, but can't draw a Flickerwisp (or Recruiter) and concede to Teferi ult. Game 2 opponent's draws are really poor, and I have Karakas vs his Thalia; he concedes once Azcanta goes live.

    R4 vs 4c Wrenn Delver: split and head home.

  14. #5374
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill



    Hey Source Landstill Pilots

    Came over here from mtgsalvation since the Landstill thread over there is literally non-existent. Thought I had lost my box of competitive decks and my binder almost 10 years ago; turns out it was just my binder and I found the box with my old MonoR Burn and UWr Landstill deck. Unfortunate that my story sounds like the other new guy and our lists our similar.

    I'm hoping to put together the new primer for that site, as well as update my deck for the next month's Knight Ware event. Given that my knowledge and tech is woefully out of date, I'd love hear some feedback.



    Manabase - 23
    3x Tundra
    1x Plateau
    1x Volcanic Island
    4x Flooded Strand
    1x Arid Mesa
    1x Scalding Tarn
    2x Island
    2x Plains
    3x Mishra's Factory
    3x Wasteland
    1x Tolaria West
    1x Karakas

    Denial - 11
    4x Force of Will
    3x Counterspell
    3x Spell Snare
    1x Fact or Fiction

    Draw - 10
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Standstill
    2x Jace the Mind Sculptor

    Removal - 11
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    2x "Sweeper"
    3x Engineered Explosives
    2x Humility

    Utility/Creatures - 4
    1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    2x Vendilion Clique
    1x Eternal Dragon
    1x Crucible of Worlds



    Having looked at Fox's list and his posts, my most immediate changes would likely be:
    - 1 Dragon
    - 1 Fact or Fiction
    - 2 4cmc Sweepers (Are Wrath, Day of Judgment, and Supreme Verdict considered that inferior to Terminus?)

    + 3 Terminus
    + 1 Azcanta

    I'd love to include Teferi, Time Raveler, but I'm loathe to cut Elspeth, which seems the most likely candidate to be replaced to my old eyes. Probably just nostalgia. Anyways, any feedback would be appreciated, I've enjoyed reading and catching up on 1.5, even if my pet archetype isn't around as much anymore. Have lots of other questions but this post is long enough as it is for now. Cheers.

    - cm

  15. #5375
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Manabase:
    -if 3c Fetch x9 = 4x Vista, 2x Strand, 3x Tarn -> basic Mountain in SB. Extra Fetch comes from Wasteland cut.
    -If 2c Fetch x8 = 4x Vista, 4x Strand.
    -Tundra down to 1x -> +2 Island
    -Volc and Plateau out
    -cut Tolaria West, land count to 22.
    [+1 slot]

    Counterspells:
    -3 Cspell, +2 FoN
    -Snare to 2x
    -cut FoF
    [+4 slot]

    Draw:
    -Portent x4
    -JTMS is fine, but 5cmc Teferi is more in-line with the goals of hard control.
    [+0 slots]

    Removal:
    -Humility to 0x
    -EE to 0x
    -Wrath up to 3x. While Verdict is a better Wrath, you can't ever cast it against DnT's Port (and there is no room for the Astrolabe stuff, thus Terminus)
    [+4 slots]

    Utility/Creatures:
    -Remove all 5 cards you had.
    -Snapcaster x3
    -Mentor x1
    [+5 slots]

    5 extra slots = 2x Teferi (3cmc), 2x Azcanta, 1x free slot. If you really love the Crucible, it lives in the sideboard and we put a Karn in the maindeck.

    The two things that really matter to winrate are nuking dual land numbers down to 1 and adding 3x Snapcaster. Just doing these things will add ~10-20% winrate immediately.

  16. #5376
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    /snip


    Thank you for all the advice. I particularly appreciate the tidbit about the biggest bang for the buck change I can make is adding in SCM and Vistas. I'm guessing that this is because SCM offers virtual card advantage by virtue of reusing spent Instant/Sorceries and essentially reads as "1U, ambush target attacking creature", and the prevalence of non-basic hate? Would love to hear the insight behind some of the card choices.

    It really looks like dropping to two colors might be the way to go, since I was only in R for the sake of REB/Pyroblast and Firespout to deal with Fish and Gobbo decks, and EE @ 3. What am I missing that's worth splashing R for?

    I see how Portent is great for setting up an opponent turn Miracle or potentially disrupting their draw.

    Dropping Humility seems scary to me as it has always felt particularly back-breaking against anything creature based, and because of how it lets us outclass most things with a Factory, but I guess I can put that into the leftover free slot. Are we at the point it's simply a "win-more" card, as opposed to something that can help us catch up?

    Monastery Mentor I can see as a cheaper Elspeth, along with being a faster win-con, so that makes sense. Small Teferi and Azcanta in particular are cards I previously would have never considered, so reading up on those takes was neat.


    EDIT: Where do Legacy players test builds these days? Way back when, Cockatrice was the platform of choice, but it was shut down.

  17. #5377
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    If you play SCM x3 with 4x Swords, you're just going to win a lot of games of legacy regardless of the other 53 cards in your deck. On top of this, SCM is one of the best threats to have when followed up with Standstill; they lose a dude to flashback [usually] and then have to discard a removal spell to deal with SCM, if they have it, when you go to cast Standstill [which means Factory is that much harder to deal with]. You can do the ambush blocks as well, but the removal/wraths make the need for this play pretty uncommon.

    Red would only be for the SB Mountain + 3x REB trick, and maybe a sideboard EE. There's so much going on at 2 mana though that Snare main and Hydroblast in board is going to be fine on 2c.

    Portent also is just way better in a late game (screwing up opponent draws or shuffling off a [-3] big Teferi activation), and it invalidates Narset (and this is on top of 3cmc Teferi + manlands which can easily murder Narset).

    Humility costs 4 mana & isn't blue; it also lacks text against a lot of decks. The card is fine, but it should live in the board so it's never drawn in a matchup it can't impact. What it's doing in game 1 is pretty well covered by Terminus, and Snapcaster recasting Plow (turning off SCM with Humility is higher variance). Once you get to the board there is no shortage of derpy artifacts and white cards. You have Deafening Silence [soon], Ethersworn, RiP, EE-type card, Humility, and others - it's just not that hard to play 1x of these and add 1x E-Tutor to the board to virtually manipulate numbers. Play big Teferi and you have zero incentive to not have a 1x B2B (and you also stop caring about wasting any resources on a Choke, remember you also have blue mana coming off Azcanta).

    Other than paper, I don't think there is a way to test for free. I guess you could find someone to play with over Skype, and point webcams at playmats.

  18. #5378
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If you play SCM x3 with 4x Swords, you're just going to win a lot of games of legacy regardless of the other 53 cards in your deck. On top of this, SCM is one of the best threats to have when followed up with Standstill; they lose a dude to flashback [usually] and then have to discard a removal spell to deal with SCM, if they have it, when you go to cast Standstill [which means Factory is that much harder to deal with]. You can do the ambush blocks as well, but the removal/wraths make the need for this play pretty uncommon.

    Red would only be for the SB Mountain + 3x REB trick, and maybe a sideboard EE. There's so much going on at 2 mana though that Snare main and Hydroblast in board is going to be fine on 2c.
    This makes sense. The more I read and think about the inclusion of Teferi, Time Raveler and SCM, the more I realize how ridiculous the synergy it has with SCM is. Or rather, just how absurd SCM is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Portent also is just way better in a late game (screwing up opponent draws or shuffling off a [-3] big Teferi activation), and it invalidates Narset (and this is on top of 3cmc Teferi + manlands which can easily murder Narset).
    Gonna assume you mean Narset, Parter of Veils. Is this a common hate card against control-archetypes, and who runs it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Humility costs 4 mana & isn't blue; it also lacks text against a lot of decks. The card is fine, but it should live in the board so it's never drawn in a matchup it can't impact. What it's doing in game 1 is pretty well covered by Terminus, and Snapcaster recasting Plow (turning off SCM with Humility is higher variance). Once you get to the board there is no shortage of derpy artifacts and white cards. You have Deafening Silence [soon], Ethersworn, RiP, EE-type card, Humility, and others - it's just not that hard to play 1x of these and add 1x E-Tutor to the board to virtually manipulate numbers. Play big Teferi and you have zero incentive to not have a 1x B2B (and you also stop caring about wasting any resources on a Choke, remember you also have blue mana coming off Azcanta).

    Other than paper, I don't think there is a way to test for free. I guess you could find someone to play with over Skype, and point webcams at playmats.
    This point brings up a great point; as a whole, is the Legacy-meta no longer dominated by creature-based decks? My understanding is that CB/Top Miracles did a fantastic job choking a lot of those out, but with the banning of Top, I would have thought they, or at least U-splash tempo decks would make a comeback (in line with what Delver.dek seems to be). It seems like the quality of creature cards only seems to have improved overall during my absence, so I'm interested in what you think your "average" metagame would look like.

    EDIT: Disregard the above, spent some time in the main forum, am currently reading about how:

    GB Depths
    BR Reanimator
    RUG Delver
    Bomberman
    ANT

    seem to be the major players at the moment.

    On to the "Karnboard" as I've come to call it; you've already mentioned CoW in the SB. Any other particular artifacts that you find particularly helpful that Karn can bring in?



    Sideboard

    Grave Hate
    3x Faerie Macabre
    1x Grafdigger's Cage

    Storm Hate
    2x Ethersworn Canonist
    3x Spell Pierce

    Other?
    1x Enlightened Tutor
    1x Humility
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    1x Back to Basics
    2x Engineered Explosives


    Appreciate your input as always. Expecting to get washed next month, but hopefully I'll be able to post some useful insights on my experiences there. I'll post up the list I eventually take and the results.
    Last edited by crispymelee; 09-23-2019 at 08:12 PM.

  19. #5379

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Manabase:
    -if 3c Fetch x9 = 4x Vista, 2x Strand, 3x Tarn -> basic Mountain in SB. Extra Fetch comes from Wasteland cut.
    -If 2c Fetch x8 = 4x Vista, 4x Strand.
    -Tundra down to 1x -> +2 Island
    -Volc and Plateau out
    -cut Tolaria West, land count to 22.
    [+1 slot]

    Counterspells:
    -3 Cspell, +2 FoN
    -Snare to 2x
    -cut FoF
    [+4 slot]

    Draw:
    -Portent x4
    -JTMS is fine, but 5cmc Teferi is more in-line with the goals of hard control.
    [+0 slots]

    Removal:
    -Humility to 0x
    -EE to 0x
    -Wrath up to 3x. While Verdict is a better Wrath, you can't ever cast it against DnT's Port (and there is no room for the Astrolabe stuff, thus Terminus)
    [+4 slots]

    Utility/Creatures:
    -Remove all 5 cards you had.
    -Snapcaster x3
    -Mentor x1
    [+5 slots]

    5 extra slots = 2x Teferi (3cmc), 2x Azcanta, 1x free slot. If you really love the Crucible, it lives in the sideboard and we put a Karn in the maindeck.

    The two things that really matter to winrate are nuking dual land numbers down to 1 and adding 3x Snapcaster. Just doing these things will add ~10-20% winrate immediately.
    Hi Fox, do you happen to have a list you’re running currently? Tried to piece it together from your previous comments and having trouble doing so. Thanks!

  20. #5380
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Island x4
    Plains x2
    Tundra x1
    Karakas x1
    Strand x4
    Vista x4
    Mishra's Factory x3
    Wasteland x3

    SCM x3
    Mentor x1

    small Teferi x2
    big Teferi x2
    Standstill x4
    Azcanta x2
    Brainstorm x4
    Portent x4
    Plow x4
    FoW x4
    Terminus x3
    Spell Snare x2
    FoN x1
    CJ x1
    Noxious x1

    SB
    E Tutor x1
    B2B x1
    RiP x1
    Humility x1
    Canonist x1 (change to Deafening Silence)
    C Priest x2
    Hydroblast x2
    Powder Keg x1
    Disenchant x1
    Ashiok x1
    Sacred Ground x1
    Spiritual Focus x1
    Aegis of Honor x1 (last 3 here change often)

    Haven't played this deck since Scroll of Fate became legal, recent printings dictate UW Dreadstill is better positioned (better able to maximize small Teferi).

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