I was referring to The Rock with some LftL's in there, not aggroloam :D The Rock doesn't run DD's, they run deeds, vindicates and plows.
The problem is that everything comes back and not in the janky way that ITF tries to be 'immortal' either, which spells doom because my answers become meaningless in the long run.
Yes, boarding in relics helps but this seems like a horrible matchup so I'm looking for some general pointers, there might be some things I've not thought of since like I said earlier I lack some playtime :)
Hello friend.
Sorry, I'm retarded. Factory is still nuts.
On the spell snare/counterspell argument. I've been playing a 4/1 split and been very happy. The one counterspell seems random but I honestly see it just often enough to like it. I find the vindicate models like mine really do need ww or wb first, so an early counterspell is usually out of the question and spell snare counters mostly everything I want anyway. Also, I'm really sick of people saying spell snare gets worse in the mid and late game. Most decks are playing the same goyfs, bobs and counterbalances mid and late game as they are early on. Spell snare is always good.
On aggro-loam, it's an awful match, that's all there is to it. The problem is the inevitability, which you really can't address until game 2. The best play is to resolve elspeth and swords the big guys. This match is one of the few in which elspeth's ultimate is actually really worth it because it makes their recursion pointless.
@LostButSeeking
Thanks. I read the article. Eliminating mana burn and LIFO damage is rather groundbreaking.
@3duece
Lol. A 1-of typically means you don't ever want to see it unless you tutor it.
I agree with you on Spell Snare. Unlike Mana Leak, Spell Snare's effect is effective regardless of the time of game. This is because the decks that it hurts the most, typically aggro decks, all run masses of 2cc creatures (Werebear, Meddling Mage, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Piledriver, Lord of Atlantis). Indeed, even against control decks, permission is 2cc for the most part (Counterspell, Mana Leak, Rune Snag, Remand, Memory Lapse, etc).
And how does The Rock work these days? Still Ghost Quartering people to death? I would think I have a better game one, as I run 8 basic lands; they can take their time, I'll just hardcast 2+ angels on them (assuming they don't get more than one Bitterblossom in play, then I scoop). ^^
I kind of want to play Landstill at the SCG 5K event next weekend, but I'm expecting a field heavy with Merfolk and Zoo. There's also a strong probability that Tendrils Combo will make a decent appearance if others are expecting the same field that I am. Because my name isn't Geoff Smelski (meaning I probably can't T8 in a field like that), I'll probably play Aggro-Loam or Merfolk or CBTop. However, this means sleeving up a deck that I'm way less familiar with (outside of CBTop), although last time I did that I made Top 8 anyway. Am I overthinking this? Should I roll with Landstill despite it being an anticipated crappy metagame choice, or go with something like Aggro-Loam that could be strong against the field but that I probably won't play as optimally as I would Landstill?
Raw cardadavantage wins, It's a strong engine but horribly slow. They aren't doing anything usefull for 3/4 turns to get back a Pernicious Deed. Ow that and Elspeth wins the game, get to 8 counters ASAP with building tokens and Ultimate her. The only danger you have after this is Tombstalker. They can only Vindicate it, but it should be possible to stop that. Try to plow the Eternal Witness so they can't recur it.Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
If you are playing Crucible of Worlds it's easier, because it allows you to destroy things like Volrath's Stronghold, wich they need a drawstep to get it back with Life from the Loam.
@Misplayer:
Why not play Landstill? All the matchups are winnable with Landstill if you build it properly. Alot of spot-removal against Merfolk and Zoo is nice and Combo can be dealt with in the SB by boarding 6/7 cards in like Meddling Mage, Sculler and Vendillion Clique.
Then you are still able to win against Scrub and hopefully Thresh( allthough you will weaken that matchup.)
The greatest power of Landstill is that it can win every matchup( except maybe 43 lands and Ichorid) without changing the deck to much.
Benie
It seems to me that E. Plague isn't used very much in this build anymore, if so, whats the reason for this? Is it too slow or just not needed?
Meta-consideration I guess, but with merfolk running rampant and (at least where I live) people experimenting around with faeries I'd say it's safe to bring at least 3.
Hello friend.
I suppose, but yeah Merfolk is definitely on the rise. I was using 3 Plagues but had to bring them down to 2 actually (I didn't think I was facing enough Tribal for it to warrant 3 spots). E. Plague is great against them when it lands but thats the hardest part. It'll usually get countered or possibly bounced. Along with Swords, the Paths may be a better choice due to its speed.
@Misplayer, ultimoman, Ectoplasm
Indeed, I have always been more concerned about aggro than combo.
If you play black, Engineered Plague is the way to go. Wake Thresher doesn't stand a chance.
I don't though, which is why I pack 2 Path to Exile maindeck.
@Benie Bederios
I typically have not had too much trouble with Loam Control in the past. I find that they're rather slow and vulnerable to permission. But then again, I have not played more recent versions.
Aside from the cards that enable its card advantage engine, Devastating Dreams is probably the key threat, but I main deck Spell Snare, so I don't worry too much. The biggest problem is usually killing them. Second game might be smoother when I put in Tormod's Crypt and Krosan Grip, but even this is no guarantee.
But yeah, Cabal Therapy is definitely one good reason to play Sensei's Divining Top over Brainstorm. Hiding a Force of Will all day can be rather useful to stop the Devastating Dreams for 6.
Anyhow, another plus to black is that Extirpate, Planar Void, and Leyline of the Void can be played.
Guys first in a tournament in Hollland.
This was my list and I was very very happy with it. We played 5 rounds of Swiss and I won 4-1-0 ending first.Code:// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com) // Lands 3 [R] Tundra 3 [ON] Flooded Strand 2 [R] Underground Sea 1 [R] Scrubland 2 [GUR] Island 2 [GUR] Plains 1 [GUR] Swamp 3 [ON] Polluted Delta 3 [TE] Wasteland 3 [4E] Mishra's Factory // Creatures 2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 [SC] Eternal Dragon // Spells 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives 3 [IA] Counterspell 3 [DIS] Spell Snare 2 [IN] Fact or Fiction 2 [R] Wrath of God 2 [SC] Decree of Justice 1 [TE] Humility 4 [AL] Force of Will 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares 4 [OD] Standstill 3 [IA] Brainstorm 3 [AP] Vindicate // Sideboard SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
G1 UGr Balanced Thresh 2-1
G2 Merfolk 2-1
G3 Suicide w/ Blue 2-1
G4 Eva Green 2-1
G5 Aggro-Rock 1-2
The maindeck was just perfect, from the SB I boarded in Path to Exile quite some time( against Merfolk and Eva Green). Crucible of Worlds was nice too, but didn't need it often. Vedalken Shackles was very good against Merfolk.
The only slop I had was that I didnt use 10 card from my SB all day. There were Loam, combo and aggro-players but I didn't face them.
Benie
Last edited by Benie Bederios; 06-14-2009 at 02:30 PM.
Grats on the finish!
One thought though: Only 22 land (23 with e. dragon) and 3 brainstorm didn't seem light? Especially in the merfolk matchup I'm always happy I have 23+2 dragons+4 brainstorms.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
A mistake creeped into the decklist. If you count correctly there were 59 cards there. There should be a second Island.
Benie
Gotcha. Still lighter than I like to run (as far as non-land mana fixers go) but it makes more sense now.
What did you think of the 2/2 els/DOJ split in that build? I haven't had time to test it out too much and I've been running a 1/2 split. Was the second els worth it?
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
yes
Once again, Elspeth is what is going to win you a large chunk of your games followed by Decree and Factory tied in a close 2nd. 2 has become the optimized number and I see people running 2 in 90% of the lists I come across.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
I guess my question was referring to a vindicate-still build. I haven't seen any lists run more than one 'till now.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I play 2 in vindicate still. Have been since it debuted.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Maybe you should check deckcheck.net a little more often, thenI see eslpeth as a standard in 2x. I've got many friends who play the 3rd. I have tested the 3rd but I prefer the second doj in every situation. And obviously in the mirror match I have vindicate to get rid of opponent's PLW, so I don't care having the 3rd to "counter" my opponent's eslpeth. For the rest, nothing more to add to what rockout and (laconic but precise
) mossivo said.
gustha jump on aim.
and yes 2 elspeths or 3-1 split it optimal. no less no more.
1. I've cut Counterspell from my latest build (only 4 Spell Snare/4 Force of Will permission main). I've found that not needing UU except to occasionally play Jace makes the manabase incredibly more stable. I'd be interested to know what others thoughts are on this.
2. Wish Targets: How relevant is Tsabo's Decree? By the time you hit 6 mana haven't you either stabilized or lost? It seems like auto-includes are Path to Exile, Extirpate and Pulse of the Fields. I also like FoF, Fracturing Gust and possibly Counterspell in that order. With Tsabo's Decree that's almost half the sideboard as Wish targets which seems excessive. Other current SB cards include Ajani, Crucible, additional PtE and Crypt/Relic (are these necessary with Wish->Extirpate? I'm leaning towards yes).
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