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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #2881
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Those are very vague categories. Burn can be considered both traditional Burn and Goyf Sligh. Combo is, well, combo. But what do you consider as control? I just 2-1'd a Canadian Thresh list with both of my wins being with the CounterTop lock, which completely locked him out of the game. Do you consider that as control? What about Aggro Loam? The mirror? "Control" is a very vague description, IMO.

    Counterbalance is great vs Zoo. Of course it's not going to do what WoG does if they already have a bunch of guys out. That's why we run WoG. What CounterTop does is prevent them from recovering or coming back once you've stabalized. The ability to defend against burn spells after your already in burn-out range is really helpful. Plus, CounterTop can be achieved as early as turn 3 (with mana open, that is), so it isn't necessarily a lategame lock. It's definitely not win more, and while it doesn't answer what's already on the board, it can prevent bad situations from getting worse.

    However, I'll let the topic go. Hopefully I've sparked enough interest for at least a few people to test it and share their results. If SB CB is as far as it goes, that's fine. Personally, I think MD CB is the way to go.

  2. #2882

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Q: vs tempo thresh how does counterbalance help the "goose, go" plan.
    A: It tries to keep TT off balance by countering cantrips, largely irrelivant because as long as they have goose and can get to 7 it doesnt matter since they can randomly blow you out late game (even more so if they play clique.)

    You want the real reason CB hasnt been as widely adopted?

    EE between 0 and 3 + Acadamy ruins >>>>>>>>>>>> CB

    Top can go as high as 3 but it slows the deck down, I would rather just play 2 or 1 + enlightened. EE is such a bomb right now, it also makes some matchups you have 0 game against (ichorid much?) very, very winnable. Other matchups very difficult with CB vs EE

    Stompy varients
    The MIRROR

    Also THE card vs combo isnt trap, or CB, its orims chant and MM.
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  3. #2883
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by undone View Post
    Also THE card vs combo isnt trap, or CB, its orims chant and MM.
    I overheard some guys whispering that a few Combo decks might have adopted targeted discard to fight through counterspells and Chants and the likes [seriously: Chant=not so hawt]. And Meddling Mage, even if he actually was better VS Combo, is still way too narrow to play him any longer...

    SB CB: I lovin it :)

  4. #2884
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    MM? Really? Teeg is a metric fuckton scarier. Against ANT, almost never will a single Meddling Mage stop them.

    Chant isn't bad. Unless they make you discard it.

  5. #2885
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Meddling Mage is blue, which makes it more valuable, since not having a blue spell to pitch to FoW is important. That, and Teeg screws with your other spells, like Elspeth and FoW. That, and Mage is useful in other matchups like Burn. That, and it doesn't require a green splash and is in your primary colors.

    Chant is narrow and is only good vs Storm combo. Since Storm isn't even a bad matchup, and since Storm is hardly played, Chant is a horrible SB option.

  6. #2886

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by chokin View Post
    MM? Really? Teeg is a metric fuckton scarier. Against ANT, almost never will a single Meddling Mage stop them.

    Chant isn't bad. Unless they make you discard it.
    Teeg isn't a good combo with Force of Will...

    At Hanni: Why don't you fit in CB in the 4C Landstill? I've been reading it and the curve of that deck is thanks to Pernicious Deed a little better. Just something I was wondering.

    Benie

  7. #2887
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    I spend some serious testing against ANT lately. For those who don't know, as a member of Team Nijmegen, I have the opportunity to test against some seriously skilled ANT pilots.

    The list I used has 4 Fow, 3 SSnare, 3CS, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Top and 2 Jace. The rest is not relevant.

    I tested preboard, and postboard with some sideboardslots devoted to combo. In those slot: Negate, Counterbalance (with a 3th Top), Meddling Mage and E Canonist. And of course, some Relics and Extirpate.

    The matchups sucks. Really really sucks. 3 SB slots only improve the matchup 5%, from 10-90 to 15-85 or so. It really isn't worth it. If you want to win from ANT, either play another deck, or devote at least 9 cards to it.

    Or off course, pray for a unskilled pilot.

    I've given up against ANT, and just run some other good stuff instead (a 4th Plague, 3th Relic, 3th Path to Exile).

    Ow, and against lists running doomsday, it's even worse. Dropping standstill means loosing, unless you have a 4th turn elspeth and 3 Force to survive that turn.
    DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).

  8. #2888
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    For me the main reason for playing LS was to beat the shit out of CBTop.deks.
    A list with only 3 answers to a CB doesn´t do that imo because it´s harder for you to stick an early balance than it´s for them. Off course you can just randomly win games but I prefer to know I won´t loose, no matter what happens.
    I can see CB in the SB, but as Ascetic mentioned you actually still won´t win 2/3 against Ant and stuff and loam will just board 3 grips (if they don´t already have some MD) and go ftw. My opinion, and I DID test CB MD.
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  9. #2889

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    1) ANT is a tough matchup but its about 40/60 if your opponent is skilled and your of equal skill. Although there is one thing I would note, I run 4 Cspell and 4 snare and 4 FOW which helps some. You HAVE to mulligain aggressivly into a Cspell effect. I would also say chant is NEEDED if you want to consistentaly win the matchup. EE for 0 slows down 2x LED hands. Standstill is a force pitch till you have elspeth online.

    2) MM does everything you want in this matchup, the best name is chant/silance, followed by duress if your playing chant. Once they cant disrupt you only counter businuss (IT, AdN, IGG exct)

    If you want to win the ANT match play the following cards

    MD
    4 Snare
    4 Force
    4 Cspell

    SB
    4 MM
    4 Chant
    X extirpate (countering 1 chant followed by removing the rest+peeking thier hand is awsome actualy)

    The truth is thier deck isnt scary once we remove chants/duresses after that its very easy imo.

    Or you can do something someone showed me was funny as hell....

    ....

    ...

    ..

    .

    Board in crainal extraction. Many times opponents will wait to go off because you dont have a clock and such. Cast this card naming tendrils of agony. Extend hand they cant beat you any more (partialy because goblins cant kill you and tendrils will not help. If they are playing burning wish it doesnt work but it was funny the one time I saw it. Not that good but putting a T4 clock on them is ligit pressure (same as a dreadnaught actualy.)
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  10. #2890
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Actually 1 hit from a dreadnaught makes it awfully hard to go off at a maximum of 8 life (usually less from fetches). You effectively put them on a 3 turn clock, and Dreadstill is a nightmare for AdNT anyway.

  11. #2891

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Benie Bederios View Post
    Teeg isn't a good combo with Force of Will...

    At Hanni: Why don't you fit in CB in the 4C Landstill? I've been reading it and the curve of that deck is thanks to Pernicious Deed a little better. Just something I was wondering.

    Benie
    Counterbalance and Pernicious Deed don't mix well. Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives is much better.

  12. #2892
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Counterbalance and Pernicious Deed don't mix well. Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives is much better.
    That, and I would never play 4c Landstill. The manabase is atrocious.

  13. #2893

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Combo in my area doesn't involve ANT. I can't even remember the last time I was tendrilsed to death. It might have been aluren combo.

    Anyway, Combo in my area is almost universally solidarity. I've played a couple of matches, pre and post-board, and have found the matchup to be winnable with a decent draw. I have three Meddling Mages in my sideboard (partially because the new flavor text is so AWESOME--sorry solidarity players, but you lack the will to oppose disorder.) I've found them to be good, but I'm never quite sure what to name when I play them. I usually name cunning wish, but I've also tried flash of insight, brain freeze, meditate, reset and once, when I was really sleep deprived, echoing truth. They can't remove it now! Wow!

    Anyway, I was wondering if you thought MM was worth it if your combo matchup is usually going to be solidarity, and if so, what you name when you play it.

  14. #2894
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by LostButSeeking View Post
    Anyway, I was wondering if you thought MM was worth it if your combo matchup is usually going to be solidarity, and if so, what you name when you play it.
    CB is better against solidarity, but honestly I named cunning wish or meditate when I was playing landstill when solidarity was big in the states.

    The more thought and playtime I give counterbalance, the happier I am with it. It's absolutely nasty against all of the matchups we have trouble with. It saves so many slots over the 3 MM/3 Halo or even the 4 Chant/4 Mage SB listed below. 3 slots and burn rolls over, combo loses all of its scary tools, and Zoo loses half their threats and half their reach. Thresh takes a beating too.

    I urge those who are still running other 2-drop combo hate out of the board to try CB.
    I'm here to kick ass and play card games.

    BZK

  15. #2895
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Counterbalance = Good! Edit: In the sb.

    Also to note Zendikar Enemy Fetches = Big Deal for Legacy and thus (Landstill.)

    More specificly Obsidian Flats. I'm super excited about this card and I really think anyone looking to optimize their land-bases needs to throw in the consideration of this card.

    A simple breakdown in my fetch-lands will show you this

    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta

    Now to me obsidian flats completely replaces polluted delta or 1-1 splits it at the very least. I think the idea is that land-still wants 2 basic plains and 1 basic island by turn four and often times I end up with a flooded that I search for an island turn 1 with; then I end up sucking it with a t3 polluted delta to mess with my basic land drops. I really think the end result will look something like this.

    Land 23:
    4 Tundra
    1 Scrubland
    1 Underground sea
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Obsidian Flats
    3 Island
    3 Plains
    3 Mishra's Factory
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Dust Bowl

  16. #2896

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Hey Landstill I think I am the first to see this, so I get to state the obvious first:


    Luminarch Acension 1w

    Enchantment Rare

    At the beginning of each opponent's end step, if you didn't lose life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Luminarch Ascension.

    1{W}: Put a 4/4 white Angel creature token with flying onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if Luminarch Ascension has four or more quest counters on it.




    Sooooo.... looks fun doesn't it?

    Plays well under standstill, with all of Landstills removal, and with Wog, and Elspeth who can block goyf until you get 4 counters. (as a sidenote it also makes dumb fog decks more playable :/ )

    Thoughts?

  17. #2897
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Relatively similar to Hoofprints, IMO. Both are solid cards, but I feel like Elspeth replaced them as win conditions, and the deck wasn't really hurting for any more.

    However, it does appear testworthy, since once it hits 4 counters, you don't need to add any more. Plus the fact that it costs 1 less to activate. Might be a valuable addition. Also ups the 2cc count for Counterbalance (which matters to me MD, to some SB). Might actually be better in my build than Decree, since it adds to the 2cc spell count. Only problem is that Decree makes Standstills better.

    The thing about Hoofprints though is that with Brainstorm, you can activate it the following turn. Or with double Top you can activate it once every two turns. Waiting 4+ turns to finally activate Acension may be too long. If you can go 4 turns without taking damage, you tend to be in a winning position anyway.

    I dunno. Testworthy, at the very least.

    EDIT: Oh shit, there's no restriction on how many times you can activate it in a turn? That could be disgusting.

  18. #2898

    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    Card is actualy absurd. With a measly 6 mana you can kill a dreadnought and lose 0 anything. With mana you can put 20 flying points of power on the board.

    That said this card is only absurd on turns 2-4 because otherwise it takes forever to set up. It also has the unfortunate side effect of dieing to disk and EE@2. Cards saving grace? It is able to be used at instant speed.

    The first statement is only true in referance to EDH :P where the card is actualy busted.

    Also I have a question for the lists running CB, why run CB when you could run EE+ disk. Disk and EE have acadamy ruins and dont punt to grip (well EE at least) while CB punts to EE, Grip, predator and basicaly every deck that has adjusted to CB.
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  19. #2899
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    I have a question for the Landstill community: how good is Engineered Explosives?

    Personally, I've found it to be underwhelming lately. For me, it's been either a 1-for-1 (pay 6 mana to destroy Counterbalance), or a 1-for-2 (e.g. destroying LofA and Silvergill for 4 mana while still staring down Cursecatcher + Reej). Rarely have I used it in its strongest capacity: to take out opposing creatures AND enchantments/artifacts in a 2-for-1 or greater. I think good CounterTop players understand they can't over-extend into an EE with say Goyf, Bob and Counterbalance the same way good aggro players understand they can't dump all their men on the table into a Wrath.

    What I'm trying to say, or ask rather, is how much would this deck lose if the EE slots were replaced by some combination of Vindicate and Wrath of God? EE is usually used to perform either the function of Vindicate (1-for-1 on a permanent, usually for way more mana), or the function of Wrath (x creatures-for-1, but less effective).

    Obviously you're sacrificing versatility, but you pay for EE's versatility in casting plus activation cost. The rather significant mana investment of EE is a bitter pill for me to swallow, especially early game. Sure it's incredible late game, but your whole deck is incredible late game even without EE.

    The other biggest strength of EE that I can think of is against tokens (EtW, Zombie tokens, and of course Decree tokens). Also, Ruins recursion is pretty ill, but that's achieved about once a tournament if you're lucky and really just increases your late-game inevitability, which the deck has anyway.

    In summation: is EE still worth 3 slots? 2? 1?

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by undone View Post
    Also I have a question for the lists running CB, why run CB when you could run EE+ disk. Disk and EE have acadamy ruins and dont punt to grip (well EE at least) while CB punts to EE, Grip, predator and basicaly every deck that has adjusted to CB.
    CB is used to answer non-permanent spells, which EE and Disk do nothing against. Counterbalance in Landstill also does not really "punt" to EE, they have to cast it for 6 to be safe plus activate. If they want to invest 8 mana to destroy one card, I'm ok with that. That's when you cycle Decree on their ass.

  20. #2900
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    Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill

    I've never been a fan of disk, largely because I feel the niche it fills is already filled satisfactorily by other cards (EE, WoG, and Cunning Wish, humility as the super-powerful card to combo with Els). I also feel its exclusion makes playing counterbalance in any way more feasible given how efficent it is at eating counterbalances.

    That being said, I would never go with a number of EE other than three. Especially in my new build it's a beating and a half. It recurrs, doesn't blow up things you don't want it to blow up, and most importantly can handle an early vial which is something the deck seriously can't handle without it. It's nuts against Zoo, thresh, and really everything else because the format relies on 1/2cc creatures to win. Cutting EE means a worse merfolks matchup, along with zoo, thresh, storm, CB.top.dec, and goblins matchups. And really just everything else.

    For those of you that are running wish, what are your boards looking like right now? I really want to fit in either fracturing gust or R2D but I'm having trouble making a cut.

    3 EPlague
    3 CB
    2 Relic
    2 P2E
    1 Negate
    1 FoF
    1 E. Tutor
    1 Extirpate
    1 Pulse

    I guess the obvious choice would be cutting P2E#2 for R2D#1 but I was also interested in fitting in P2E#3 because I love playing 7 STP.dec against elves and merfolk post-board. Negate also seems out of place, but I want my wishes to also be hard counters, and to me that's definitely worth the slot. And of course it gets boarded in sometimes too. I know Moss, you don't like FoF out of the board but I'm still on the fence on it. I've been wishing for it less and less but for a while there I was pulling it every other game or so which makes me worry about cutting it. Especially since I don't play as much "real" card advantage as traditional lists MB, I think this slot might be a necessary evil.
    I'm here to kick ass and play card games.

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