Is Jace good for you because of Forbid or has he been good anyway? I've been considering using him again, I constantly switch between 1 Jace and 1 Fact and I can't decide which I prefer more. Its great having an alternate win con in Jace as well, but he can be hard to protect and isn't an instant.Originally Posted by gustha
Thanks. That costed me a week of headhace to tune it, and still has some problems in the draw package (seriously!). Jace has been amazing all the time.
To Tacosnape:
Thats an interesting build but I see no way for you to deal with a Progenitus once its out or an Inkwell Leviathan as well. Progenitus has been popping up more and more and the Inkwell isn't too common but its being used in Reanimator now. Some sweepers beside E.E. could be a good idea.
I don't know if you guys have seen this list and wondering what your thoughts were?
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
And I might just add "...and scoops to a resolved Natural Order". But more to the point, I'll try to explain what I feel about current trends in Landstill development. Although I'm not posting much, I'm tinkering with different Landstill (and Ultimate Walker for that matter) builds for months and months. Even though I hardly qualify for a Landstill guru, I think my opinion has some weight.The list eschews cute stuff in favor of consistency, speed, and a ton of card advantage.
Without luxury of Pernicious Deed (as in 4c build) its a lot harder to find proper balance between what you devote for early game survival and what's supposed to be your late game inevitability. Shift it one side and you lose to decks with recursion/engine, shift it to another and you're victim of tempo strategies.
Starting from early game, lets consider what tools do we have for the problems that arise there. Forgive my captain-obviousness, but its fundamental and really deserves a thorough analysis.
* The most troublesome early play from opponent is Vial that greatly invalidates counterspells and planeswalkers, shuts off standstills (and that's nearly half of the spells this deck runs!) and gives your opponents a massive tempo boost. How can one generally deal with Vial?
1)FoW it. Consider that this move actually turns opponent's card disadvantage from Vial into card advantage. They don't lose a single threat (Vial doesn't actually kill you) and you lose an answer along with another card. Things would get really horrible if FoW gets Daze'd.
2)Destroy it with Explosives. I'd say this is only good if you manage to make it 2 for 1 or at least cast it for 1 preemptively. Otherwise, they don't lose a threat, you lose the answer that is able to provide card advantage.
3)Ignore it – deal with consequences. If you don't have a FoW, shuffle away the now bad cards with brainstorm and try to survive the onslaught.
The indirect ways:
1) Run less cards affected by Vial. I don't like my main source of card advantage (Standstill) turned into nothing. That's the main reason I'm considering to run Ancestral Vision instead. While it has its drawbacks, it doesn't sit in your hand useless like Standstill in unfavorable situations. I'm not going to turn this into Ultimate Walker holywar, so no pros/cons and thorough comparisons.
2) Run more answers to Vial. 4 Explosives, ok. Vindicate, Pithing Needle? Vindicate is okay, but its still 1 on 1 and a bit too slow (and Daze'able). Needle is fine as S/B option, but really is a bad topdeck.
3) Invalidate their whole creature strategy. More to the point further.
* Duress and Thoughtseize. Not much you can do, except hiding stuff with Brainstorm. Its still 1 to 1, so live with it.
* Next comes the range of troublesome and very troublesome 2cc non-creature spells: Hymn to Tourach, Survival of the Fittest, Counterbalance, Sinkhole, Chalice at 1, Winter Orb, Argothian Enchantress (its creature, ok), etc where you can't Counterspell them because you are on the draw and don't have FoW. So, what do we have there in general?
1) 4 Spell Snare. Seriously, how can one run less than 4, when some things from the above list can totally wreck you? Not to mention it does hit troublesome creatures as well? Yes it sucks compared to Counterspell in the late game, but its the price that has to be paid.
2) Deal with them? Explosives hit the most things from the list, but we do already run them. Other than that – not much. Needle and Vindicate, right? Maybe Wish?
* Standstill (and manlands + wasteland) is another 2cc spell deserves a special mention, because its run in our deck too. But there are decks that are better equipped to play under it – namely Merfolk and Goblins. Not considering Vial there – the best option is to run almost as much Wastelands+manlands as they do, be it only manlands or some split with Wasteland. And consider Decree which might turn the stall in your favor and is massive bomb late game. And once again consider dropping your own standstills in the favor of the spell that should not be mentioned.
* Our next problem is Natural Order into Progenitus. Most people run this along with countermagic or on top of Survival shells. You can counter this of course, because it doesn't come online earlier than turn3, but not always. The deck must have the tools to deal with a thing that already hit the board.
* So there's a broad range of swarm strategies. While 8 swords might work where creatures are few (like against Team America), I probably wouldn't run 8 StPs even if I was allowed to by the rules. This is still 1 for 1 exchange and they run way more creatures than you run swords. Sweepers are necessary for card advantage. EE is a bad sweeper past 2cc. So there are options of 'soft' sweepers like Pyroclasm or Firespout or hard ones, like Wrath of God or Nevynirral's Disk. Another approach is Humility, which is not really a sweeper, but turns their whole strategy into crap. And turns Survival and Vial into crap too. Personally I prefer Wrath and Humility, because they actually hit the already mentioned Progenitus.
* Graveyard based strategies – adjust the sideboard.
As for late game, I think its dangerous to go beyond 8 4cc spells, as these tend to clunk your hand. Also – try don't run singletons unless they fill the same slot as a card that's already is in the multiples. Singletons simply aren't going to work. I'm more and more into Geoff's (konsultant) 'redundancy' approach.
So, there are two lists to throw in:
1) Classic UWb
// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
// Spells
3 Counterspell
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Standstill / Ancestral Vision
2 Humility
2 Jace Beleren
1 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
1 Decree of Justice
2) UWr Walkerstill:
// Lands
4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
2 Plains (4)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
1 Plateau
// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace Beleren
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Standstill/Ancestral Vision
2 Wrath of God
3 Counterspell
2 Humility
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fire/Ice
Your last list (UWr) seems very interesting, really. You should consider to throw a crucible somewhere and maybe to up the count of elspeth to 3, but I find it really solid. And, here, I love Fire/ice: though i'm a fan of path to exile (removing is better than simply destroying), I can see it logically fit when you have 4EE to get rid of all non-tombstalker menaces. Plus it's goo in the early game to get rid of critters. Sick it does nothing or nearly so against zoo.
I love the work, though I'd have to dismiss sb counterbalance I think. Would you mind sending me a PM with your considerations on that list? Tx.
A possibile side?!? (with MD crucible)
1 Jace Beleren
3 REB
4 relic
3 lifegainer (ajani/pulse/cop:red/finks)
4 meddling mage
EDIT @ultimoman: I've almost never seen forbid. jace is good by it's own, and it's great against tempo.decks.
I did consider Crucible, I've even ran it as 2-of. What I felt about it, is that it doesn't do anything useful, doesn't impact the game stongly enough. And as 1-of its too random. I don't like singletons.
Is Standstill better than Sensei's Divining Top?
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
@Gustha: Indeed, I agree. In the control matchup hes a bomb but overall with Zoo so popular as well as a ton of other explosive decks, I find that Jace is too hard to protect to make him worth it.
@Illisius: Thats difficult to say because they both have different functions and are used for different reasons. They're both good and it depends on the situation.
On another note: I'm actually not liking Spell Snare as much as I used to, its just not getting as many targets as it once did. Yeah it can still counter dangerous creatures but I usually just try to kill them with Swords or E.E. Am I the only one not finding it as useful as we once did?
That's like asking if oranges are better than apples. They are different. Standstill has specific requirements, but if you build your deck right can lead to a lot of card advantage. SDT has fewer requirements, doesn't lead to card advantage, but can lead to a lot of card quality advantage if you are consistently inputting mana. They're both good.
EDIT:Yes.
That's mainly because you cut academy ruins, which I won't ever cut from my lists... recurring EE/top/crucible is too strong not to be run, even with 4 EE. I can't see why crucible won't impact the game. first you can consider forbid in place of counterspell (which would be great), and then, well, ajani vengeant + fire/ice + wasteland really opens a way for a mana denial plan... Generally speaking, if you don't mean to recurr anything (no ruins, no recurring wasteland), crucible is indeed hardly needed.
Still, send me that PM with your considerations on the list, I'd be glad to hear them :)
Scoops to a resolved Armageddon too. What's your point? Natural Order doesn't show up as often as the decks this is tuned to beat, and I've still got plenty of answers to it. Force of Will, Counterspell, and Meddling Mage all answer this, as do my capacity to simply keep the board completely clear of green creatures with STP, Path, and EE (More likely against Bant than Elves.) Additionally, boarding Wrath if I felt it necessary would be quite easy.
I'd argue mine's the strongest of both worlds. My early game survival is fantastic with 8 1-white removal spells, Forces, Counters, Snares, and Explosives. My lategame is fantastic because due to the tempo of my removal, I can abuse Standstill and Jace, which are the strongest card drawers in the format. I also have Elspeths. What I lack in bombs like Humility and Wrath and Decree and whatnot, I make up for in how consistently my card advantage can shine through. STP and Path very often allow a turn two Standstill, and EE at 1 can handle Vials before they get out of control.Without luxury of Pernicious Deed (as in 4c build) its a lot harder to find proper balance between what you devote for early game survival and what's supposed to be your late game inevitability. Shift it one side and you lose to decks with recursion/engine, shift it to another and you're victim of tempo strategies.
Direct 1&2: I have 4 Forces, 4 Explosives. I also board Pithing Needles for Vial, Wasteland, Survival, Top, etc. And Seal of Cleansing. And spending EE on a Vial isn't a bad thing if it's enabling a Standstill in the process.* The most troublesome early play from opponent is Vial that greatly invalidates counterspells and planeswalkers, shuts off standstills (and that's nearly half of the spells this deck runs!) and gives your opponents a massive tempo boost. How can one generally deal with Vial?
1)FoW it. Consider that this move actually turns opponent's card disadvantage from Vial into card advantage. They don't lose a single threat (Vial doesn't actually kill you) and you lose an answer along with another card. Things would get really horrible if FoW gets Daze'd.
2)Destroy it with Explosives. I'd say this is only good if you manage to make it 2 for 1 or at least cast it for 1 preemptively. Otherwise, they don't lose a threat, you lose the answer that is able to provide card advantage.
3)Ignore it – deal with consequences. If you don't have a FoW, shuffle away the now bad cards with brainstorm and try to survive the onslaught.
Direct 3: I have 8 removals and 7 draw spells that Vial doesn't nerf to stall for time. Not the best plan ever, but hey.
Addressing all these cards individually:* Next comes the range of troublesome and very troublesome 2cc non-creature spells: Hymn to Tourach, Survival of the Fittest, Counterbalance, Sinkhole, Chalice at 1, Winter Orb, Argothian Enchantress (its creature, ok), etc where you can't Counterspell them because you are on the draw and don't have FoW. So, what do we have there in general?
1) 4 Spell Snare. Seriously, how can one run less than 4, when some things from the above list can totally wreck you? Not to mention it does hit troublesome creatures as well? Yes it sucks compared to Counterspell in the late game, but its the price that has to be paid.
2) Deal with them? Explosives hit the most things from the list, but we do already run them. Other than that – not much. Needle and Vindicate, right? Maybe Wish?
1. Hymn. I run Brainstorm, Counter, 2 Snare, Force, and more draw spells than their discard can wreck.
2. Survival of the Fittest. This is rarely run, and I run Snare, Counter, Force, EE, and Relic of Progenitus, which is invariably good against non crazy-elf Survival.
3. Counterbalance. 4 EE >> Counterbalance. Also, Force, 2 Snare, Counterspell, etc. Also, Elspeth.
4. Sinkhole. Oh noes. Not teh Siknhole. Force, Counter, Snare, drawing more land off my ridiculous draw engines, and nobody runs this.
5. Force, Snare, and 4 maindeck EE, which is fantastic against Chalice, especially when it 2-for-1's Moxes.
6. Winter Orb. Do people run this?
7. Argothian Enchantress. I actually do face this. 4 Maindeck EE and ten counters dedicated to stopping no card but this and Enchantress's presence. Plus Relic for Replenish.
As for Snare, no, the price doesn't have to be paid. Not in this build. Counterspell's better in the long game. Snare's nice, but I don't have to have a ton of them to survive.
Why?The deck must have the tools to deal with a thing that already hit the board.
Alright, this is somewhat valid. So I'll add Wraths to the board if I need them.* So there's a broad range of swarm strategies. While 8 swords might work where creatures are few (like against Team America), I probably wouldn't run 8 StPs even if I was allowed to by the rules. This is still 1 for 1 exchange and they run way more creatures than you run swords. Sweepers are necessary for card advantage. EE is a bad sweeper past 2cc. So there are options of 'soft' sweepers like Pyroclasm or Firespout or hard ones, like Wrath of God or Nevynirral's Disk. Another approach is Humility, which is not really a sweeper, but turns their whole strategy into crap. And turns Survival and Vial into crap too. Personally I prefer Wrath and Humility, because they actually hit the already mentioned Progenitus.
Where I play, Natural Order is a serious contender and is played quite frequently, so I have to keep it in mind, when constructing the deck. I want to win those preboard. What I don't like about Path, or even StP is that casting it on Llanowar Elves, Hierarch, Goblin Matron, or Spellstutter Sprite (duh!) feels like a very weak move. Especially if its turn 4 or a-like, and you don't have a Standstill to compensate. For all you know, they might just drop a Goyf or RWM after that. And Elves do have a lot of disposable creatures.
As I said, the problem there is not with creatures, but with other troublesome spells. I'm rarely having problems with creatures, unless they stick these spells.I'd argue mine's the strongest of both worlds. My early game survival is fantastic with 8 1-white removal spells, Forces, Counters, Snares, and Explosives.
The problem there is that Merfolk (and modern Goblins) have a fine game under Standstill. They often do run 4/4 split of Vault/Wasteland, so dropping Standstill there is like gambling and is going to backfire sometimes.And spending EE on a Vial isn't a bad thing if it's enabling a Standstill in the process.
Perhaps rarely for you. but clearly not for me. I'm facing Survival decks every tournament, sometimes even more than once. Elves are tricky, because they're able to explode through Order, Survival (with infinite combo), and just with lords. Things get even tricker after SB, where they bring Tsunami (o god) and Shusher in.2. Survival of the Fittest. This is rarely run, and I run Snare, Counter, Force, EE, and Relic of Progenitus, which is invariably good against non crazy-elf Survival.
No, not really. EE >> Counterbalance only if you have a metric fuckton of mana. You don't really cast it for 2, because of Snare and lots of 2-drops they have, its still unsafe for 3 (they play more and more 3cc spells), and you still have to think of Daze. So you need like 4-5 mana and at least a turn to reliably get rid of it. And if they manage to counter your EE, you're in trouble, because 90% of your deck suddenly stops working. Especially those StPs and Paths.Counterbalance. 4 EE >> Counterbalance. Also, Force, 2 Snare, Counterspell, etc. Also, Elspeth.
Well, that's my point, I don't think 2 Snares is enough. Survival, Natural Order and CB are very present in my meta, and indeed what I also mentioned is of a less concern. And these matches are exactly where 8 swords are hardly good and Humility and Snare are awesome. I'd prefer some sweepers against Goblins too.As for Snare, no, the price doesn't have to be paid. Not in this build. Counterspell's better in the long game. Snare's nice, but I don't have to have a ton of them to survive.
Because Progenitus is 2 turn clock that can happen out of nowhere? I don't like losing to it...Why?
PS. Why Seal and not Disenchant?
@Tinefol: It sounds like our differences of opinion are strictly metagame based. I don't see all that much Survival, I don't see all that much Natural Order, and I don't see Goblins running anything other than the four Wastelands.
Assuming I have absolutely no intention of running Humility (And I don't), what's your recommendation to deal with things like NO and Tribal decks? Wrath?
As for Seal versus Disenchant, I dunno. Disenchant might be the better option in a reactive deck. I'm generally a fan of Seal because on the play it comes down before both Standstill and Counterbalance, but Disenchant might be the better choice here. Hadn't given it much thought.
Why do you dislike Humility?
Wrath deals with Progenitus fine, is good vs Elves, Survival, random shit like WW but the most popular tribals... It seldom workds against Merfolk for obvious reasons. Its okay against Goblins, but doesn't save you from this scenario: Wrath the board, they cast warchief or chieftain and something else and bash in for 4-5 (at least). Things are even worse, if they have a Mutavault. Or sucks against Ringleader they've been holding. I think you need Humility or Plague here, or better yet both to have a reasonable upperhand.
I tend to agree with Tinefol's assessment on Goblins. Gotta have a Humility, you can't afford to trade removal spells when they just refill their hand, and my list at least runs only 7 counters (4 of which are FoW, duh, that might require an additional CS to be pitched). Matrons/Ringleaders look lonely as Mon's Goblin Raiders on the board.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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Are you forgetting that Landstill is a metagame deck? Until the end of time, there will never be such a thing as an optimal Landstill deck, because reactive decks will always respond to the meta around it, not tune itself to goldfish on Turn 2.
Maybe it's because you run Spell Snare and not Counterspell? If you want to deal with randomness, Counterspell is probably a lot better at countering a 4c card compared to that of Spell Snare.As I said, the problem there is not with creatures, but with other troublesome spells. I'm rarely having problems with creatures, unless they stick these spells.
Are you not running Wastelands and Factories yourself? Are you also forgetting that one Factory on the table can block 2+ Mutavaults? Are you also forgetting that you also run Decree of Justice?The problem there is that Merfolk (and modern Goblins) have a fine game under Standstill. They often do run 4/4 split of Vault/Wasteland, so dropping Standstill there is like gambling and is going to backfire sometimes.
You should be playing with Humilities maindeck. Elves doesn't run Krosan Grips maindeck, so you can easily run Humility. And if Elves ever board Grips against you, not only will their lack of library manipulation hinder them of finding Grip, they have to deal with the Engineered Plagues you boarded in.Perhaps rarely for you. but clearly not for me. I'm facing Survival decks every tournament, sometimes even more than once. Elves are tricky, because they're able to explode through Order, Survival (with infinite combo), and just with lords. Things get even tricker after SB, where they bring Tsunami (o god) and Shusher in.
Part of the reason why Landstill is a functioning deck is because of the overcosted cards and bombs. This quote makes sense.No, not really. EE >> Counterbalance only if you have a metric fuckton of mana. You don't really cast it for 2, because of Snare and lots of 2-drops they have, its still unsafe for 3 (they play more and more 3cc spells), and you still have to think of Daze. So you need like 4-5 mana and at least a turn to reliably get rid of it. And if they manage to counter your EE, you're in trouble, because 90% of your deck suddenly stops working. Especially those StPs and Paths.
Why don't you just run 3 Snares, 3 CS and 4 FoW? I've been doing that for the longest time now.Well, that's my point, I don't think 2 Snares is enough. Survival, Natural Order and CB are very present in my meta, and indeed what I also mentioned is of a less concern. And these matches are exactly where 8 swords are hardly good and Humility and Snare are awesome. I'd prefer some sweepers against Goblins too.
This seldom happens often. In fact, if I face this situation more, I'd be happy with adjusting my deck to deal with it, but I don't. Having this happening to you is like playing against Ichorid at a tournament.Because Progenitus is 2 turn clock that can happen out of nowhere? I don't like losing to it...
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
As you may have noticed, I do run 3 Counterspell and 4 Snare. Been running 3/3, and it felt like not enough. And I do run Humility maindeck.
As for "this seldom happens often" - this happens far more often for me, than Ichorid, which basically nobody plays around :)
I retract my statement. :)
Hey man, you should just board Perishes in. You not only answer progenitus, but the entire race of lame green creatures you have to deal with. :)As for "this seldom happens often" - this happens far more often for me, than Ichorid, which basically nobody plays around :)
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Newer list:
Lands: 23 +1 dragon
4 flooded
1 delta
1 marsh
4 tundra
1 scrub
1 sea
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra's
1 dustbowl
1 ruins
1 dragon
Permission: 10 (Standard)
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
(Snare is too narrow in the current meta to suffice it to be a 4 of. Counterspell has become slightly better in my opinion. Thus the standard is better to me again.)
draw: 9
3 standstill
3 top
3 brainstorm (I want 4, but I have to reconfigure my argument.)
removal: 10 (Standard for wish still)
4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 humility
Win conditions: 4
2 elspeth
2 decree
utility:
2 wish
1 disk
1 cow
sb:
1 rod
1 pulse
1 pate
1 e tutor
1 beb
2 path
4 e.p.
3 counterbalance
1 relic of progenitus
I think the counterbalance relic slot needs to be solidified, and I think baneslayer could have a place because of the protection pieces
Crucible MB without wastes? Sounds lackluster.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
It sorta makes sense. He has Dust Bowl, imo, not really enough to justify it, but I think his primary plan with CoW is to use it as more of a Sacred Ground/mana stabilizer sort of card rather than a win condition (recurring Factories isnt as effective as a win condition compared to the Wasteland lock).
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
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