[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[gustha]

It should be self-evident:
1) control decks LIVE on card quantity above quality: some decks rely on speed, some on permanent advantage, some of damage superiority, control decks rely on card advantage. That means, quantity over quality, quality is only virtual card advantage. For every threat the opponent has, we have twice as much remedies. SDT is not a must, is an option each player has to choose according its own playstile and list. Card Advantage tools are the real must: i.e. standstill. A control player should always aim at CA first of all. I really don't understand playing only 2 copies of the most powerful draw engine in the format, if not for specific reasons (and this seems not the case, given the rest of his list). If you fear to land a standstill, you shouldn't play a deck in which that action happens very often. That could be just me, though.

2) his list is tuned in consistency and solidity over elegance and diversification, i.e. tuned to take the best out of a powerful CA engine as fact or fiction. The fact is: if you play only 2 sdt there's a chanche you want to use them as a mid-late game manipulating engine, otherwise you'll probably use 3-4. But that's nonsense, when you reach 4 mana you already have fact or fiction which, used correctly, makes sdt almost completely useless. Sdt is the natural ally of jace beleren, those 2 guys work perfectly well together. Sdt and fof don't just go well together, because the superiority of fof in the lategame makes sdt an almost wasted slot. Plus you have plenty of other ways to thin the deck (decree cycling, dragon's recursion...). The deck is really compact: those sdt's are useless. Ofcourse, they always perform well. But if you test his list without, the deck will just perform better.

This deck's draw engine shouldn't be a general mish-mash of all the draw engines at our disposal, but should follow consistency, coherence and general philosophy of the deck. Sdt is great, but I would probably never play it without jace or counterbalance, if I can have fof at the same place. If you want to fully take advantage of sdt, play not less than 3.
2 is randomic in the early game, and useless in the mid-late because of the superiority of fact or fiction. I'd rather play 3 fact or fiction in his list, but it's not law ofc, only a different deckbuilder's choice. I don't think the relation between sdt and fof are a matter of playstile, though, but a matter of logic.

[RogueMTG]

I disagree, I've been running 2-3 Tops + 2-3 Fact or Fiction (without Jace or CB) for a while and I like it alot, they have totally different functions. Top can do things like come down early and just hit you land drops every turn against Canadian Thresh, in some matchups like Merfolk & Canadian Thresh Fact or Fiction is almost uncastable. On the other hand, in control mirrors and in the late game FoF is a beast.

Running some number of both of them allows you to have card selection when you need it, and then refuel with FoF in the late game, once you get there.

Edit: I'm not suggesting the 2/2/2 split is good, just that Top + FoF aren't exclusive.

[Tea]

I think the draw-engine should consist of
4 Brainstorm
0-3 SDT
5-6 CA-spells: Standstill or FoF
unless you run Cunning wish, in this case 4 CA-spells might be enough.

I personally absolutely disklike Jace, because he lacks card-quality. Probably his lack of card-quality is not so obvious, because SDT makes up for that. But if you don't have a SDT in play...
I'm also not sold on Jace TMS, because you don't get much additional card-quality if you already have a SDT in play. That being said, Jace TMS could be a good choice if you don't run SDT, but I still prefer FoF.

[Citrus-God]

After playing a ton of games with my new build, I'm starting to realize how important it is to keep a hand of 1 Brainstorm or 1 Standstill. I will never cut a copy of Brainstorm or Standstill, ever again. I will even cut a copy of FoF or two to maintain my playsets of Brainstorms and Standstills. I still have a copy of FoF in the maindeck, and another copy in my Wish board, so it worked out for the better.

[Hitman82]

1) control decks LIVE on card quantity above quality: some decks rely on speed, some on permanent advantage, some of damage superiority, control decks rely on card advantage. That means, quantity over quality, quality is only virtual card advantage. For every threat the opponent has, we have twice as much remedies. SDT is not a must, is an option each player has to choose according its own playstile and list. Card Advantage tools are the real must: i.e. standstill. A control player should always aim at CA first of all. I really don't understand playing only 2 copies of the most powerful draw engine in the format, if not for specific reasons (and this seems not the case, given the rest of his list). If you fear to land a standstill, you shouldn't play a deck in which that action happens very often. That could be just me, though.

This is ridiculous. Throughout different parts of a game, different cards serve you better. Obviously, Fact or Fiction is one of the worst cards to draw before turn six. The effect it has upon resolution is amazing but has certain obvious prerequisites, mainly the mana cost but also the necessity to play around cards like Daze, Spell Pierce and Counterspell.

Standstill is far from being the best draw spell in the format. It's actually terrible except when you're already ahead, hence the two copies. It takes time and manipulation to develop board positions that are worth playing a Standstill into. Haphazardly playing one can easily cost you a game. I hated it as a four-of. I hated it as a three-of. I played it as a two-of with Enlightened Tutor in the past and loved how few times I had the dead card in my hand. However, when the situation calls for it, it's back-breaking. With Aether Vial decks, Zoo decks and Threshold decks running rampant, I don't want more than two copies of that situationally good card around. In the early parts of a game, Sensei's Diving Top is invaluable at consistently getting good land drops, removal and countermagic. It gets me to the point where Fact or Fiction just ends the game. I don't play three because with four Brainstorm, which is probably the single best spell in the deck, I don't need that many copies and, like you said, it loses value as my other engines come online later in a game.

You're actually completely wrong in saying control decks live on card advantage, not quality. The control concept revolves around sacrificing tempo in the early game to overwhelm the board with inevitability in the late game. So, the key to playing a good control deck is to play spells that efficiently combat tempo strategies while incorporating appropriate late game bombs. If the quality of your cards is ever lacking, you die because you lack the necessary element at the time you need it at.

My 2/2/2 split isn't random. It's a byproduct of it's function throughout a game. I have six filterers in the early game to get what I need. I have two Standstills to solidify a controlled board in the mid-game and I have two Fact or Fictions to end the game. There's nothing random about it. The split reflects which roles are most important and when. The most difficult points in the game are the early ones because we don't have access to the mana to do our silly things so cheap filterers/cantrips get us the required resources and tools to survive the early game. Standstills and Fact or Fictions get us to the end game when we're already ahead. Another thing to keep in mind is that Top is never dead with a Crucible of Worlds, an end-game card. I try never to have dead cards, or as few as possible anyway.

[Tea]

After playing a ton of games with my new build, I'm starting to realize how important it is to keep a hand of 1 Brainstorm or 1 Standstill

Having a SDT in your hand is just as good as a BS or Standstill, isn't it?

[Citrus-God]

When you mentioned Enlighten Tutor, I come to think of your build as more of a toolbox approach. While what you have to say is worthwhile, the part where you make the assumption that Gustha's comment is ridiculous is also quite ridiculous. Landstill has always been a deck that utilizes attrition, if what Geoff Smelski showed me to be right. Standstill is good if you have the cards in the maindeck to support it. I even replaced a Spell Snare with Path to Exile so that I could maximize the percentage of my being able to drop Standstill with little repercussion.

Standstill will hardly be dead if you run more attrition war based cards. If you have trouble keeping control of the board, then you probably shouldn't be running Standstill. There's a reason why we run 3 board sweepers, 5-8 StP effects, 2-4 EEs and 3-4 Cunning Wish/Vindicate effects. If you're going to run toolbox cards to make use of Standstill, that in itself might affect your opening hand and future draws, thus making Standstill a bad card to run. Of course, your list isn't a toolbox list, but Gustha is right about your list being able to support a full set of Standstills. Try playing your build with a full set of Standstills, because your list can competently support it.

With that aside, I like your list. The only issue I see is your mana base. For one, I think you need a Basic Mountain. There are many games where I see having a Basic Mountain being necessary, especially if you want to be boarding in REBs which are golden against the control mirror, CounterTop and Merfolk. Two, you should be running a mana base that looks something like this

3 Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Strand
2 Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island

Having a SDT in your hand is just as good as a BS or Standstill, isn't it?

It's very mana consuming, and is easily just as good as Brainstorm... but it isn't as gamebreaking as Standstill. If I were to hypothetically run SDT, I would cut a copy of BS before I even cut Standstill.

[gustha]

When you mentioned Enlighten Tutor, I come to think of your build as more of a toolbox approach. While what you have to say is worthwhile, the part where you make the assumption that Gustha's comment is ridiculous is also quite ridiculous. Landstill has always been a deck that utilizes attrition, if what Geoff Smelski showed me to be right. Standstill is good if you have the cards in the maindeck to support it. I even replaced a Spell Snare with Path to Exile so that I could maximize the percentage of my being able to drop Standstill with little repercussion.

Standstill will hardly be dead if you run more attrition war based cards. If you have trouble keeping control of the board, then you probably shouldn't be running Standstill. There's a reason why we run 3 board sweepers, 5-8 StP effects, 2-4 EEs and 3-4 Cunning Wish/Vindicate effects. If you're going to run toolbox cards to make use of Standstill, that in itself might affect your opening hand and future draws, thus making Standstill a bad card to run. Of course, your list isn't a toolbox list, but Gustha is right about your list being able to support a full set of Standstills. Try playing your build with a full set of Standstills, because your list can competently support it.

Thanks Citrus. In fact, I was exactly thinking at yours and Geoff's lists when making those comments. The similarity between the decks are evident to me, the philosophy should be the same: that list can fully use and abuse a complete set of standstill. Just trust us and test it, you won't regret it I promise!

With Aether Vial decks, Zoo decks and Threshold decks running rampant, I don't want more than two copies of that situationally good card around.

Actually, zoo and threshold are a couple of Mu's in which I want the full set of standstill.. there' really no way they can take mre advantage than you with standstill on the board, plus your list is tuned to crush them, standstill or not. Vial decks is another pair of sleeves but again, doj is good at fightning vial.

My 2/2/2 split isn't random. It's a byproduct of it's function throughout a game.

This would be true if, in every single game, you draw exactly top in the early, standstill in the mid and fof in the late. But this won't always happen. Most of the time, you'll draw sdt late, fof early, standstill every now and then... I call that randomic.. You cannot plan a plan with too many if's: be clear with your mind. If you want to develop a late game plan, fortify standstill and fof; if you want more lbrary manipulation, frtify sdt and standstill.

I disagree, I've been running 2-3 Tops + 2-3 Fact or Fiction (without Jace or CB) for a while and I like it alot

There's no matter of aesthetics, no matter of liking or disliking a card/combination. It's a matter of logic and funcionality. I run myself top and fof, I even run top+fof+jace in a sinle build. The result: the combination is redunant. Every time I cast fof, or land top+jace, I noticed I was able to keep the game without using the other draw engine. So the logic is: why using 2 draw engines where 1 can do the same? I preferred jace + top for the internal logic of my builds. I would never suggest builds like geoff's and citrus' running tops, and hitman's list seems quite similar.

[GoldenCid]

I really think that Sstillis not a tool for midgame. It gives us the early card advantage we need to get rid of the first threatens. After it gives us the cards we need to lock the game to our favour.
Unfortunately i didn't find place in my list for FoF. I began running tops but afterwards i cut them for an additional wish and E dragon.
Here it is for suggestions:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [6E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [M10] Doom Blade

The most important think i found is a reduce kill capabilty. I tkakes my a lot of time to win and my matches ends 1-0 or 1-1.

I found ED a good "fetchguy" and sinergic with Decree but i'm still arguing its utility. And what about Mmage??? I found that it's a good chance against combo. Suggestions are welcomed.

[rsaunder]

I don't know what you guys are quibbling about, SDT v. FoF. They're not complimentary, but redundant. SDT is one of the few cards the deck plays that serves different roles in every matchup and at every point in the game. Just because you resolve a turn 1 top doesn't mean you have to sink mana into it, it was just an investment in future draws and card quality, probably for the rest of the game. I'll never agree that 2 standstill is correct either, it NEEDS to have at least 3 slots, but SDT definitely can be played alongside FoF and brainstorm.

I know you guys have done your testing, but I have too. Perhaps it's just my build or my playstyle, but I've never been happier with a landstill list than I am running a drawbase of:

3 Standstill
2 FoF
2-3 SDT
3 Brainstorm

[GoldenCid]

3 Standstill
2 FoF
2-3 SDT
3 Brainstorm

So...y0u are running a 10 - 11 draw cards engine.
I'm running a similar, in quantity: 2 FoF + 4 Brainstorm + 4 Stanstill.
I think that i'm in the good road in this way, but i've still haven't solved the kill theme. What about Cspell i run 3 is it possible run 2?? Off course it would be in favour of an additional decree or a crucible which retrieves indefinitely destroyed mishra's. What can i do with that matter??

In addition and concerning the list i put above i cut ED and a wish to run the 2 FoF.

[Mark Sun]

So...y0u are running a 10 - 11 draw cards engine.
I'm running a similar, in quantity: 2 FoF + 4 Brainstorm + 4 Stanstill.
I think that i'm in the good road in this way, but i've still haven't solved the kill theme. What about Cspell i run 3 is it possible run 2?? Off course it would be in favour of an additional decree or a crucible which retrieves indefinitely destroyed mishra's. What can i do with that matter??

In addition and concerning the list i put above i cut ED and a wish to run the 2 FoF.

My UWb list has 3 Factory, 2 Elspeth, and 3 DoJ as the win conditions. Obviously you will draw in to the Factories at some point, but getting any of the latter 2 online earlier applies pressure and as you draw into more gas it'll get the job done. Elspeth online following a DoJ cycle is pretty potent.

I'm confused about Maze, and I've read the discussion that followed your first decklist post. I have to say, I would never run that in this list, one that focuses on getting your bombs (4cmc and higher if you want more than 1 DoJ token) to resolve. Maze of Ith doesn't help you achieve that. I mean, you are playing this with 22 Land right now. What does Maze of Ith stop that Wrath / Humility doesn't (speaking of, those cost 4cmc too)?

I'd definitely bump the true-Land count to at least 23 (you cut Eternal Dragon, so you may need a count of 24, imo). Btw, looking at your board, is Mindbreak Trap really that effective? Have you gotten a chance to use it? I don't play against ANT all that much, but they do run Pacts in the main, so Mindbreak Trap may not be able to save you. TES likes to go off with Chant Protection.

[GoldenCid]

I'm playing 24 lands right now. With a maze and a tolaria as tutor. I don't blame maze for low kill capability. An anotation i can make is that FoF is more aggresive than oters draw cards. I deegs a lot inside the deck for answers or win conds.
I don't know, don't you think that 3 DoJ is too much??

That's right, i couldn`t make use of mindbrake trap. But i think that it could be very usefull for 0. Giving you some open mana to counter something in the storm of spells. chant is pretty suceptible to pact too.

[Mark Sun]

I'm playing 24 lands right now. With a maze and a tolaria as tutor. I don't blame maze for low kill capability. An anotation i can make is that FoF is more aggresive than oters draw cards. I deegs a lot inside the deck for answers or win conds.
I don't know, don't you think that 3 DoJ is too much??

That's right, i couldn`t make use of mindbrake trap. But i think that it could be very usefull for 0. Giving you some open mana to counter something in the storm of spells. chant is pretty suceptible to pact too.

What I meant by true-Land was lands that can produce mana, and right away, or look for it. Tolaria West is 0.5 land in my opinion, and rarely sees play "on the battlefield."

I probably spoke too soon by suggesting 3 DoJ, but I like it for a similar reason as to why I used to run 3 FoF. It digs early when you need to dig to set yourself up, and makes a great finisher (similarly, FoF pitches early to FoW, and grabs you card advantage later).

I'm not sure what you mean by this:

chant is pretty suceptible to pact too.

[GoldenCid]

Btw, looking at your board, is Mindbreak Trap really that effective? Have you gotten a chance to use it? I don't play against ANT all that much, but they do run Pacts in the main, so Mindbreak Trap may not be able to save you. TES likes to go off with Chant Protection.

I was reffering to this. You questioned trap because storm players run pact of negation as answer to it. So does chant. Was i clear now??

And by the way...i made some changes in the side (i suffer too much against burn or zoo):

SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [M10] Doom Blade
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields

And what do you think about luminach ascension for mirror match??

[RogueMTG]

Unless the mirror is really really common for you I think I'd look for a card that doesn't have such a narrow application. Duress/Vendillion Clique are both quite good in the Mirror and have uses in other matchups.

[klaus]

Any ramblings regarding our current status?

[RogueMTG]

Well, it doesn't mean Landstill is dead, though I don't mind people thinking that it is.

It's clear why we've been bumped. We just simply didn't make the cut. Our point total stayed the same, but the % decreased a lot.

Luckily, Landstill is ultra customizable. It may take some adjustments to find all the right tools, but IMHO it still has the potential to do well and win events in the right hands.

[rsaunder]

I can see this. The numbers haven't been there! But the meta may be shifting away from landstill. I'm worried about 43land.dec coming back in enough numbers that you might have a shot at facing it (anyone who says this matchup is something other than an auto-loss is wrong. Maybe their opponent was a 3-year-old who wouldn't read idk) That alongside ichorid, which although winnable is still bad.

I think the meta's shifted away from us a little bit. At least in our current form.

[mossivo1986]

Unfortunate as it is to see my pet deck die, in some ways i'm much happier that I am forced to play more aggressive options. I'm also glad to have traded my foil Elspeth's when I did, hopefully later I can pick them back up on the cheap!

Anyways the simple answer is this.
The meta is much more aggressive then it used to be. This normally wouldn't be a problem but it's warped to the point where land-still pilots cannot create a 15 card sideboard to handle the current national meta-game; and therefore, it is absolutely an incorrect choice to play on a tournament by tournament basis.

Ex. In regards to the sideboarding plan against the following
Iona Recursion
Dredge (led)
UGr Tempo Thresh
43 and Aggro loam

While half of these match-ups are very winnable with relic of progenitus, and it's long term investment benefits landstill in many ways, in the short term of things IE recursion and LED ichorid, Relic is sub-optimal in those match-ups. It is because of these reasons as well as many others that Land-still has fallen off of it's peek.

The other question is removal. Landstill must be able to answer the fish decks in the format, while also making its tribal match-ups winnable (Vindicate for fish, E. Plague for Tribal) but it cannot accomplish both while maintaining a solid mana base as well as running the better answer to the national format Cunning wish (vs Vindicate argument). So in order to accomplish these tasks one must answer the following questions.

1. What kind of graveyard recursion package am I going to need to combat this metagame?
2. How do I fight fish decks/tribal and continue to keep my other matchups at atleast 50% or higher.


These are my opinions only. I have personally picked up White splash tempo thresh and Bant Survival in the meantime.

-Moss