Alright, as someone who has been playing landstill for a while now with moderate success in the current meta, (Top 8'd Jupiter Games 170+ Lotus tournament, multiple top 16s/9th places in 70-80 mans) I have to say that Humility is far and away the best card in the deck, I have not lost a game that Humility resolved. It wins games nothing else can and synergizes with every win condition in the deck. "Zomg they can Krosan Grip it!" just isn't enough reason to not play it.
Can you win games without it? Of course... Landstill is not a one trick pony. You can also win games without Standstill, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the deck.
Firespout blows against Natural Order decks that have become really popular around here, and as you said the deck is already designed to beat creature decks so what do you need it for? Firespout is basically pre-boarding against weenie tribal decks, and god awful against everything else.
Humillity just wins against all of the decks to beat except Merfolk (although I have beaten merfolk with Humility before) but you're probably losing to them anyway.
@gustha
Sorry when I have to say this, but you are completly wrong on the humility topic. Generally I agree with Hitman, but I still think Decree is a great card on its own and the perfect finisher for this deck (and I think Hitman would agree on this). There are some cases when you can cycle the Decree only for somthing like 3 and not for >8. In these cases, the Decree would still be game breaking while a Humility is in play.
Hitman wrote:
"Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts."
For me this is a very strong argument.
Overall Humility synergizes perfectly with the deck (manlands, decree, elspeth).
"I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck."
As I memory: I lost ONE game in 5 years playing landstill with Humility in play (vs creature based decks). This seems strong for me. And it wasnt just a win-more-card.
First gustha, you compare Humility with elspeth and wrath/firespout but we mention to play them ALL. So what cards would you play in the Humility slot, so we can compare them? I have posted my last list a few pages ago.
You wrote: "and wrath is superior to humility in any case, being able to actually solve problems and not just to stall until you (hopefully) find a solution."
This obviously wrong and I dont want to explicate this in detail but Humility says: Your opponent cant win with creatures, where Wrath says what it written on the card.
"All in all, nowadys I see it as the worst card in landstill"
Well, for me its one of the best.
You try to analyse some matchups in detail.
"Irrelevenat because redundant vs any aggrocontrol deck: we should win vs bant and the like, period."
Well aggrocontrol just scoops when humility enters play. It is relevant. All you have to do is, just resolve it.
There are aggro-control matches were you cant just trade 1 for 1 with your instant removal because
a) they play to many creatures (and firespout does nothing vs goyf, stalker, clique, war monk etc.)
b) they play balance ->shuts down your removal
c) survival
d) u could not resolve a standstill. Which is not very uncommon because you give them nearly no other targets for their spell snares.
c) they have the nice threshold-nuts-draw
So why do we have such a great aggro control matchup? Because they have only 4 Forces for our bombs like Elspeth AND Humility.
In the dreadstill matchup are you right, Explosives handle them.
Overall Humility is great in these matchups:
Aggro control (especially vs bant survival. I mean without Humility how do you want to handle survival? Sure you can counter it, but it can happen that a Survival resolves when you play against Survival and you scoop.)
Aggro loam
reanimator
gobbos
all creature based decks.....
Humility is weak against:
Merfolk
Mirror (oh yeah^^)
Combo
Burn
Enchantress (Well you are right, but they can still shut down their Arg. Enchantress)
I mean comparing elspeth with Humility makes no sense since we play them both and they fulfill different roles (elspeth is a win condition, Humility something rather like a Wrath) but lets ingore this for a moment:
First scenario: Opponent has a random (big) creature in game and lets say 2 creature removal in hand (which is not very uncommon as we dont play creatures)
Now you can play either Elspeth or Humility:
Elspeth: Is dead after 2 rounds but saves you several lifes.
Humility: You loose 2 life through attacker. Opponent has a major problem.
Second scenario: Opponent has 2 or more creatures in play or one flying creature.
Elspeth: dies. Saves you life.
Humility: You can stall the game like forever. Opponent has a major problem.
Third scenario: Clear board.
Elspeth: Beatdown plan.
Humility: Stalling.
Humility is still a bomb in the actual meta, because creature based strategies havent changed (a exception would be merfolk ). It shines also vs bant survival which is getting more popular.However, I'm not stating that humility is crap. It's still a bomb, if taken in itself. I do love that card and it's not without complain I left it aside. But a card can be good on its own, and then completely unusable in the format.
Yes, right.^^That's because she MUST stick on the board for it to actually do something
What is faster aggro, zoo or goyf sligh or gobbos? Vs zoo and goyf sligh the burn is the problem. Vs. gobbos Humility is the best card in your deck.;against faster aggros, either it comes down to late,
Oh, then you play it wrong.or post sb gets gripped away
Yes the meta is getting faster, therefor you have to increase the number of instant removal in my opinion.It's not that humility is crap, it's that the meta is too fast for it to become relevant, and that you should simply win creature-based decks without humility, because elspeth has so much synergyes with the rest of the deck that you totally neglect, and furthermore the deck is designed to have a positive aggro MU, whether you play humility or not.
I dont aggree that you simply win creature based decks. Well you are well equipped but its often not that easy.
With Humility and elspeth you have a 80% or higher matchup vs for example ugw balance thresh. I guess its lower without humility, but dont know as I play Humility.
Sorry but delaying solves here the problem. As I mentioned I nearly always win with Humility in play, because it reduces their clock from lets say 2 turns to something like 10 turns...Also:
- delaying a problem is not resolving a problem.
- a card that does not improve the merfolk MU is sensless.
Yes, Humility doesnt shine against merfolk but elspeth is also not very nice. So elspeth is sensless? This would be your conclusion? Doesnt seem very solid that the merfolk matchup is all that matters. Merfolk is just a meta game deck, that is on its own a crap deck.
Humility is not redundant, its game breaking.I say: try to focus on elspeth and play without humility. The sensation of "easy win" with humility may be just a sign of its redundancy. However, I find silly that anyone is actually trying to discredit Elspeth nowadays...
And come on, nobody discredit elspeth. We all play her.
EDIT: Another point:
When you dont play Humility, I think there is no reason to dont play goyf.
I think all of your arguments simply prove my points, instead of the contrary as you think. Then klaus, citrus, geoff and the like play landstill wrongly or just don't know how to play landstill because they don't play humility? I think this is not the case, maybe they are more good at playing the deck because they can win without. ("And come on, nobody discredit elspeth. We all play her." Incidentally, dear i_need_extra_turns, Hitman stated in his post that elspeth and decree both suck without humility, statement that is completely false and denotates either a comment made just for the sake of saying something or an absent testing of the deck without humility - and I hope tertium non datur.)
However, please stop talking theory without grounds.
1. try to play without humility and then speak, at least: you would maybe reconsider humility as a merely nice-to-have. And just try to read every single line I write, not just the ones that seem useful for your points: I still consider humility as gamebreaking! The fact that it is redundant in landstil, nowadays (I played it before and I loved it and still love it, I even wrote it, so your counter-arguments here are just hot air...), this fact does not mean that the card is crap, and if you don't see the difference it's not a problem of playing magic.
2. All in all, you forgot where the discussion started: antonius proposed list! his list wants to abuse cb lock to generate virtual CA, doesn't use standstill to generate real CA, and doesn't have EE or another form of mass removal. By the time he can set up cb lock and cast humility playing around dazes, he's just too far behind. That's when the discussion started. So please would you all mind to stop making abstract theory (I really don't care what you think of humility in abstract) and contextualize the role of humility in antonius' suggested list? Thanks.
EDIT: this is to say that you have mistaken: I was not talking on theoretical grounds, in fact I have some list with humility still in, though I'm not playing it atm in the lists I bring to tournaments! I was questioning humility in antoniu's list, with MD CB, and that's not the same ground!
Last edited by gustha; 03-06-2010 at 07:31 PM.
Originally Posted by mossivo1986Originally Posted by rockout
Gustha, let me explain a little better. When I say Elspeth sucks, it's because she costs four in a format dominated by two drops. She only makes a 1/1 token every turn and, if you're not under pressure, pumps a token. I say Decree sucks for the same reason. It's too mana intensive in relation to the rest of the field's threats. You can't compare Elspeth and Tarmagoyf threat-wise. There's no comparison. These are simply endgame finishers. All I was saying is Legacy is a creature dominated format. Why wouldn't you play a card that challenges most all the preconceived notions of the format? Not only does it weaken your opponent's plan but very much strengthens your own plan at the same time. The reason I can feel confident playing Firespout in my new list is because I play Humility. If I didn't, I wouldn't play Firespout either. If you don't play Humility, you should be playing three Wrath of Gods.
And really, we're not that weak to Merfolk unless you walk into their Dazes. Game two gets worse when they bring in Spell Pierce but you're bringing in cards too. I think a lot of Landstill players fail to beat yet another creature based deck that's slower than Zoo because they make too many mistakes.
Lastly, Gustha, I use to not play Humility. These aren't bunk theoretical grounds I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, Humility singlehandedly makes your deck strategically superior. There's no reason not to play a card that beats the ever-living crap out of the most popular archetypes in the format. I use to play Cunning Wish too but I thought it sucked and was unnecessary, much like you think Humility is. I'm not one of those players who thinks I can make my deck have game to everything in every matchup, though. I don't think playing Cunning Wish does that anyway. I've tried a lot of things and Humility is by far the best. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you so don't take offense at what I said. I'm not a subtle person so take that for what it's worth.
Just won a small local tournament (26) with this:
„UWR LS 2010“
draw/filter:
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace Beleren -------------------------------------------------will be Mindsculptor, soonish, I guess.
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
stall/win cons:
2 Kitchen Finks--------------------------------------------------------------meta choice, wouldn't have gotten there without them
2 Elspeth, Knight’s Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant-------------------------------------------------MVP
1 Vedalken Shackles
creature hate:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
3 Engineered Explosives
[1 Vedalken Shackles]
[2 Kitchen Finks - oftentimes acts as pseudo-removal]
counter suite:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
mana base
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 AcademyRuins
SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Counterbalance
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dismantling Blow (I like it better than Aura of S. due to the presence of Pridemage)
2 Firespout
1 Jace Beleren (will be Mindsculptor)
---
Round 1: RBG Goblins - Firespout>Wrath
Round 2: Pro Bant - Firespout wasn't too bad here. (Hierarch, Pridemage, Arbor) - anyway, I play more than enough removal
Round 3: Glimpse Elves: - Firespout>Wrath
Round 4: Dredge - G2 Finks beatdown ftw , G3: Relics (Also: Firespout>Wrath)
Round 5: Supreme Blue - triple Planeswalkers get there. (yeah, Wrath>Firespout)
Some explanations:
Yeah, I don't play Humility/Wrath and there are several reasons for that - here are a few:
- the creature hate suite has been working just fine for me.
- I cut Wraths a while ago because most of the time it simply traded 1-1
- which is why the mana investment->profit ratio just seemed skewed.
- I run Firespout because it handles swarm aggro, zoo and the likes formidably, while decks packing goyfy guys get handled with 6 stps, 3 EEs, Elspeth and Ajani. (I'm aware of the fact that CB poses a more severe threat to this list than to the more conventional lists)
- Note: the cheap removal approach will only work with jace (and vice versa) because it requires a rather steady stream of extra-cards - while Jace needs constant protection, with Wrath being a sub-optimal solution here
- wrath/humility also simply feel a bit too slow atm
---
That's not true. Elspeth and decree are primarly board keepers... the format is dominated by creatures as ever has been since magic is born (that's why control and combo deck exist, to beat the living hell out of creature-based decks), but the math in playing landstill remains the same: opponent does not overextend or he gets punished by our mass removals. elspeth keeps the board and forces opponents to overextend till they get punished by our mass removals against swarm aggro and against aggrocontrol it's basically a time walk every turn and this is even more true thanks to exalted mechanic, which punishes opponent's creatures which attack alone. So the math remains: either the opponent attacks with a bunch of creature and I can handle it with spot removals and infinite chumblockers (which, at some point, become indestructible: whooooa nice thing!) or he overextends and fall under the range of my mass removals, being advantageous because they can x:1 the opponent. When the opponent is out of gas, finishes creatures and so on, that's the time to race: elspeth turns to wincondition! This is a thing humility can't do. And I say you can keep the board without humility too. Though, ofc, humility + elspeth = game over!
Again, I don't doubt that this is true! I can subscribe this sentence all my life. But the fact is, THERE ARE reasons not to play a card that beats etc. etc. Being slow in the current meta is one of them. Being absolutely no more relevant than Elspeth (if you look at her the right way and play her correctly: she does not need to depend on humility to be BROKEN!) in the 98% of the cases it's another one, and so on. From my point of view, in a time when landstill can't cover the whole field as once, I must be more selective on cards I really need in order to win, and Humility is not one of those. Though absolutely gamebreaking, she's not able to win the game by itself (you still need wincondition!), and this lack of versatility is enough to keep her out of my current lists. You see, there really are reasons, which I consider relevant, not to play humility.Lastly, Gustha, I use to not play Humility. These aren't bunk theoretical grounds I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, Humility singlehandedly makes your deck strategically superior. There's no reason not to play a card that beats the ever-living crap out of the most popular archetypes in the format.
I wasn't either, so forgive me if it sounded so. However, the starting point of the discussion was: is humility good in the list Antonius proposed? I suggested that wrath would have done better, because by the time he can set up the cb lock he might be too far behind or humility to be effective...I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you so don't take offense at what I said.
@klaus: nice! I was considering KF in the main too, I tested jace 2.0 and found it quite good, but needed a cc3 card for counterbalance maindeck (especially for the rock MU). KF seems like the perfect choice. Not sure on the shackles, but with KF in the 3rd firespout is not strictly needed. How does it work jace 2.0 for you? Which ability do you use more often?
Originally Posted by mossivo1986Originally Posted by rockout
@ gustha
To summarize your points:
1. Although Humility beats, we dont need it. Elspeth does the job on its own.
2. Humility is no win-condition.
And to respond to your starting point: "Is humility good in the list Antonius proposed?"
I think you can be right that wrath would be the better choice but I also think - and let me say this as gently as i can - Antonius list (the older one) is not a optimal list. I see many landstill list on the internet (especially on other forums) which I think are not a good choice or outdated. And I dont want to discuss this on detail because the arguments have already been said several times. So it comes for me to the following question:
Should we play Humility? Referring to one of the following lists:
Hitman:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
2 Humilty
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
My list
UWr
23 Lands
4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spell snare
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT
4x Swords
2x Path to exile
3x explosives
2x Firespout
2x Elspeth
2x Humility
2x Decree
I think yes, we should play this.
Second Part follows.
EDIT: Second Part
Referring to your arguments, gustha.
Ad 2: -
-We play the same finisher, which are normally 2 Elspeth 2 Decree and Manlands. (Someone play 3 decree or ajani etc, but these are the major finisher)
- Humility doesnt need to be a win condition because we already play the same win conditions and when we resolve humility we win. So this isnt an argument for me.
Ad 1:
Well, I really like Elspeth and I think she perfectly fits in the deck, but there are matchups where we need Humility. For example DTB Bant survival. Elspeth sucks against a resolved survival.
And gustha your plan looks nice to force an overextend from the opponent and then wipe the board. But Firespout doesnt kill goyf or flyers. Lets say your Opponent has a board of 2 Tarmos or a board of 1 Tarmo and a rhox war monk. Here you will miss wrath.
The questions should be: Are there better cards for the Humility slot in Landstill?
I havnt found them. The card that comes this very close would be Fact or Fiction for me.
@Klaus and gustha
You say Humility is too clunky or too slow in the current meta. Klaus list looks like ultimate walker with standstill instead of ancestral vision (which is crap compared to standstill as we all know) and is even more clunky that the lists I have posted. He plays three cc4 cards in addition to elspeth. This would be too slow for me. Jace 1.0 was always very bad in Landstill and when I compare Jace 2.0 with Humility, no question what would I pick.
Last edited by i_need_the_extra_turns; 03-09-2010 at 07:49 AM.
Landstill is traditionally bad against combo game one. Unless you played cheaper countermagic or Counterbalance, your matchup isn't going to noticabely improve. Because the majority of decks in Legacy are creature-centric, we opt to prepare for them in the mainboard and address dredge and combo out of the board. If you expect a lot of combo, don't play Landstill because you'll be sacrificing the majority of your matchups to address a fair number of combo decks.
Elspeth sucks against Bant Survival, specifically, because they name white when they get an Iona into play and you can't race their 7/7 with your (at best) 4/4.
So, with how this quarter at school is working out, I've decided to play at the SCG 5K in Indianapolis tomorrow. Unfortunately, I haven't tested or played a whole lot since the last Meandeck Open (a good 3 weeks), so I will not only be rusty, but my list will (have to) be the same. I couldn't borrow Jace 2.0 in time, so I will be running with FoF and hoping for the best. I'm not worried about Zoo, I'm not worried about ANT (matchup is like 33/67 anyways, find a Counterbalance and pray). I am worried about Reanimator/Merfolk.
My performance at the Meandeck versus Merfolk was absolutely horrid, and while I can throw a little bit of the blame at g2 with not drawing any hate, that doesn't excuse my poor boarding plan. List for reference:
// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [MR] Plains (1)
2 [7E] Island (2)
1 [P2] Mountain (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [LG] Karakas
// Spells
3 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [REW] Lightning Helix
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
How would you guys board against Merfolk? Reanimator? I have both plans drawn up, but I may not be using the correct method of thinking in either matchup. And for the record, changes I was going to implement if I could in time:
MD:
-2 FoF
-1 Dust Bowl
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Karakas
+2 Jace 2.0
+3 Wasteland
SB:
-1 Firespout
-2 Aura of Silence
+1 Wrath of God (I might still do this anyways)
+2 Dismantling Blow
Any feedback would be appreciated. I still think that Humility is useful at the moment, especially versus NO-Pro, Reanimator if you can stick it (one list at the last 5K ran zero bounce spells in the main), Zoo (although demonstrated by many including myself it is not needed g2 & g3). I will take my chances and have 2 in the main against for this one. It also helps freak pairings against random-dudes.dec, etc. Regarding the discussion, I'm sure that once my exams are over I could join in on it, Luca makes an excellent point in stating that Humility is dead in the versatility department. There are certain matchups that I regret having it, but it's difficult to cover every one of your matchups well.
One of my goals when I have the free time is to find a Humility-less list that I'm comfortable with. Still 4cc, still slow, and still not a win condition. I'll never, ever, play this list without Elspeth, btw.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
I guess I'd board the 3 REB's and the 3rd Firespout against Merfolk, cutting 1-3 Standstills and 1-3 Forces (not sure about the correct number).
Against Reanimator I'd board the Relics/Faeries 4 CB's and 2 REB's, cutting the Explosives,Lightning Helix,Firespout,1 Path, 1 Ajani,1 StP.
Just my oppinion of course, good luck at the SCG 5K.
Edit.:
I'm not sure if this idea is great, stupid or just not worked out yet, but what do you guys think about this decklist?
Mana (23)
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
2x Saclding Tarn
4x Mishras Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
Removal (8)
4x StP
2x Explosiv
2x Firespout
Draw (10)
4x Standstill
3x Brainstorm
3x Top
Wincondition (6)
2x Elspeth
2x Decree
2x Dreadnought
Disruption (14)
4x FoW
3x Spell Snare
3x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
SB:
4x Counterbalance
3x REB
2x Relic
2x Crypt
2x Firespout
2x Path
The basic idea should be self explained. I'm not quite sure about certain things:
-8 removal spells might be to low to handle aggro
-Spell Pierce, Counterspell or even Counterbalance ? or maybe +1 Spell Snare and +2 Maindeck removal?
-is Dreadnought a possible way to add another wincondition to the early/mid/late game?
I'm looking forward to you guys :D.
Last edited by Felidae; 03-14-2010 at 02:44 PM.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Well, epic fail from me today...
I installed the changes that I mentioned in my previous post. Started an abysmal 1-3 and knowing I was out of contention for T16 I sucked it up and finished 5-3 on the day before leaving for home after Round 8. A breakdown for anyone who is interested (obviously not tournament report worthy):
R1: NO-Pro. This round played out wonderfully for me, with a correct initial read of what I thought was Bant with Natural Order. He never had enough mana to stick a guy for NO, and I locked things up with Elspeth/Jace, prompting two concessions when Jace was @ 12 & 11 loyalty, respectively. A solid win to start the day. (2-0 games, 1-0 matches)
R2: BitterStandstill. This is against my buddy Will from home, which was sort of a freak pairing (what are the odds?). Unfortunately for me, shit hit the fan here. He chains all four of his Standstills game 1, and I couldn't keep up. Game 2 he boards in 3 Extirpate, hitting Force & Factory, and the mana issues didn't end there, and I wasn't able to get WW for Elspeth until much too late, Tombstalker hits the board and as I spin Top frantically for an StP, I hit Land, Land, SDT, Spell Snare, Land. Fml. (2-2 games, 1-1 matches)
R3: Bant Aggro with Elspeth. Still mana screwed. Not sure what was wrong with this list today, but pile shuffling and regular shuffling did nothing. I open the game with fetchland, Island, Top. Go Tundra --> Top, and fail to find a red source despite holding Firespout, Helix, Helix. Awkward loss. Game 2 is much of the same, until I get Elspeth out, and it looks like I can finally stabilize... until he plays his own, wiping out mine, and then finding another one. Flying Qasali Pridemage get there. (2-4 games, 1-2 matches)
R4: ANT. I'm fairly disgusted at this point, as I know that I can only make T16 with a shot in hell if I win out. So, I sit down across from my opponent and he goes Misty --> Underground Sea. I didn't even need to wait for the play. Duress, take Force, g2. Board in Counterbalance, take a risky hand with Tundra, Plains, but 2 FoW, 2 Spell Snare, but Elspeth, and didn't hit the third land until much too late. He decided to slow roll me. Worst. Feeling. Ever. (2-6 games, 1-3 matches)
So really, I almost decided to drop here, but one of my friends is 3-1 at this point, and I said fuck it and stayed in (not getting a ride home any time soon). I check my deck really quickly to make sure I even had Volcanic Islands.
R5: TES. What are the odds? I didn't think I'd see one at this point, I mull to 6 and open with Plains, Mountain, StP, Helix, Firespout, Top. He plays Duress on his turn and takes Firespout. I spin SDT at the upkeep, see something like Explosives, X, X, he EtW's for 12 on his turn. I blow EE, and he doesn't recover. G2 I StP his first turn Xantid Swarm, and he doesn't draw another Land. By the time it's relevant, Factory has him beat pretty low and I have CB/Top in play. (4-6 games, 2-3 matches)
R6: Dredge. Dredge does what Dredge does g1. g2 I bring Macabres, Relics, and REB. Basically played "defend the Relic" for g2, as he decided to slow roll, but Relic into another Relic is pretty good against Dredge I hear, and we are off to g3. He decides to slow roll again and chooses to draw. I open with 2 Faerie Macabre. Jace actually joins the party for this one, and I get a rare moment where I pull off the ultimate against him. (6-7 games, 3-3 matches)
R7: Zoo. Finally. Matchup that I have been praying for... seems to be like clockwork. Firespout takes care of his early Wild Nacatl and Loam Lion, StP for bigger dudes. He eventually burns me down pretty low, but I find a Top, and Helix, Helix, Ajani (he eats it), but find Elspeth and start attacking for 4 each turn. I find Jace with Top, and start to Fateseal. He draws about 3-4 lands as Soldier Token gets there. g2 is similar, I land an early CB/Top and he seems to have not drawn any of his Krosan Grips. He has a hand full of 1-2 drops when he starts throwing things into Counterbalance. I hit almost everything except for Qasali... which eats an StP (no mana open to kill CB!). Elspeth and the lone Jace (boarded out copy #2) hold hands and skip to victory as he hits another long string of lands and 1cc cards for the rest of the game. (8-7 games, 4-3 matches)
R8: Zoo. Whee. This one was the dark variant, and ran Thoctar instead of KotR. Obviously, Thoctar is a little more resilient to Firespout, which made for an awkward g1 when I had in mind my usual plan of StP Goyf/bigger dude & Firespout little ones. I only get 1 StP effect in this matchup, and unfortunately it doesn't do anything, as he plays 2 more Thoctars. Really wish I had a Decree to stall, tbh. Anyhow, g2 and g3 I actually have access to a single WoG while I do an alternate boarding plan of -4 FoW, -2 Humility, -1 Jace 2.0 for +4 CB, +2 Dismantling Blow, +1 WoG (Relic doesn't seem to do anything here, and having an answer to Choke that can't be Needle'd is pretty good. I don't know the Dark Zoo list very well). WoG does its job here, helping wipe out the big guys like Thoctars/Goyfs while I am able to StP --> next turn Standstill both games, and each one ends with Elspeth on the table with ~10 loyalty and a 4/4 flying Soldier Token swinging every turn. g3 I do not draw CB/Top at all in this game, just Brainstorm & fetches, but I manage to get the trifecta of Planeswalkers into play, and to end the night, I do Jace's ultimate one last time... he put 4 cards in his library, Land, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip. Rough.
So I end the night 10-8 games, 5-3 matches. It is obviously not my brightest moment. (EDIT: 56th out of 264 participants. Shudder.)
Comments: Humility did nothing, but it was probably because I didn't run into a matchup where it was relevant (Reanimator, Survival, etc). I'm really thinking about taking these out for a support spell like +2 Spell Pierce (would have been nice to have today). I also loved Jace 2.0, he is indeed insane, but since this is my first tournament with him, I can't tell if he is win-more/makes me careless and apply less pressure/whatever. Still need to test more. Because I'm poor as hell and can't afford my own Jace 2.0's (borrowed for the tournament), in the future I might still have to go with Fact or Fiction. All right, that's about it. Final tomorrow, so obviously things can be discussed a little later
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Actually Humility does nothing against Reanimator. It can't be reasonably cast before they get Iona out and what are the odds of SnTelling it? They board in their bounce anyway. It also is unnecessary against Survival, where you are so upperhand, that its like overkill.
Where it really shines is Goblins match up, but I guess goblins are rarely played now. Good against Bant, but I'd just prefer WoG here. Also your only reasonable chance of winning Dredge game1, if you manage to slow them down (doesn't work, usually). Overall, I'd just run more WoGs.
After some time of WWk launch...has anybody been interested or even tested celestial colonnade??
And considering iona and reanimator...propaganda??
I would agree with you about Goblins, but playing in Ohio, you're bound to run into the Jonathan Benson Mono-R build somewhere (including the Meandeck Opens I generally play in). That list just T2'ed the Indy 5K. I do like WoG better for everything else, though. Against Reanimator the match is ugly enough anyways, but not a whole lot (besides Faerie Macabre, but of course you mentioned SnT) works against them. Until I find something else that can keep me alive against them, I don't know what to do. I do agree with you that it may be an answer that comes to late. After this tournament, without Karakas in the mana base I didn't feel too wonderful. Would have liked to have had an additional out than only Jace.
I didn't like Colonnade when it was first spoiled and I still can't get behind it. CiPT, takes 3UW to activate (but vigilance), seems like it's a huge investment for every turn you use it. To me it's the same deal as Tolaria West. Seems great in the mid-late game as a topdeck, pretty terrible if it's in your opening hand in a light-land situation.
He was damn powerful. I need to test him more, since like I said I can't decide if he is win-more or not. He did seal up (literally) some games quickly, and allows you to sandbag cards in your hand as you apply Elspeth beats, for example.
I suppose I'll post some of my general comments/thoughts, as between my exam prep (2 and a final report in the past two days), I've had time to brainstorm (pun intended) a little bit more.
- Previous to the whole Reanimator debacle I stated on here that I believed that UWr Landstill was the best splash for Landstill. That's because I cited the decks to beat, and most frequently occurring, as Zoo, Merfolk, CounterTop, and ANT. Right now, we're looking at Reanimator becoming more popular and making noise, as well as Lands.dec pushing the same popularity. Aggro Loam, by the way, has always been a difficult matchup for me. So, per this information, the value in-game of Extirpate, in my opinion, has increased somewhat. Black gives access to Edict, Innocent Blood, whatever we need to get around Iona. I looked up the answers in RU... it's ugly.
- Even with 24 non-CiPT Lands and 3 SDT/3 BS, I found myself with mana issues at the 5K. It could be just horrible luck, but I also had a moment to reflect on the curve overall. There are 7 4cc cards in the MD. Granted that ~2-3+ are sided out depending on the matchup in general, I'm not completely worried about it, but I feel like the MD needs to have a better curve. That said, when I had 1-2 bombs on the table, things got pretty bad for the opponent, and thus I believe this deck can still keep its punishing late-game characteristic.
- Before the 5K, when I thought I couldn't get Jace, I considered some of the following changes, which may or may not agree with everyone here. First off: -2 Humility, +2 Spell Pierce. I agonized over finding something to replace Humility in this list, cutting the total 4cc bomb list down to five. A 1cc piece of countermagic seemed like the perfect fit here, basically serving as another piece of a counter-war, and stopping an early play that Spell Snare (or something you don't want to waste FoW on) couldn't. Another SB tech that I thought about was Envelope (U, counter target Sorcery), which seems to have a lot of applications in the metagame right now.
- I also considered, due to the nature of speeding the deck up a little, at the time -2 FoF +2 Impulse. My teammate Media314r8 on here and I had a chat regarding the usefulness of FoF versus someone with experience creating the piles, and I agreed with him that often times you're getting 1-2 cards max from it if they do it correctly. Knowing that my personal goal is to play amongst the best crowd that I possibly can, this seems to be a likely scenario I would run into. Impulse allows you to dig 4 deep, but doesn't help when you want 2 of the cards you see. However, it does allow you to dig for a specific answer a lot better, and in junction with SDT, etc, you have an ability to clear the top 3, get a fresh 3, giving you 7-deep access to your library. It's somewhat of a weird idea.
Anyhow, open to thoughts on all of this, of course. Let me know how you guys feel about it.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Personally, before I start running useless lategame stuff like Spell Pierce, I'd run maindeck gravehate: Relics. They always at least cantrip, hose a ton of decks and can be cast off any land. And probably fits into metagame.
I've stopped playing the deck a month ago though. Last tournament in my area featured 4 Reanimator decks and 4 Ichorid decks. Not a good field for Landstill. The last tournament I played with the deck, I've run the Black splash, because of extirpate and plague (and guess what, plague did nothing against merfolk I lost to).
As for tools to fight Iona maindeck in UWr, I think its possible without switching the splash. You have to run Tolaria West+Karakas, you have to run 2 Jace 2.0, and you have to run ~3 Cunning Wishes for Bounce. I also think, that Wish is a way to go for UWr versions. I've tried testing UWb with black removal maindeck - and it sucked. Deck becomes so unstable against Wasteland, I'd advise against it.
As for lands problems, its there. I've cut my colorless sources to 4 (Mishra's), also I'd probably run PTE and EE4 instead of Helixes due to mana problems. Makes deck a little more stable.
Wish is a good option for iona. Go for doom blade and that's it or wipe away if don't run black.
Here's my list:
// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [R] Underground Sea
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [6E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SOK] Sensei's divining top
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning wish
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Doom blade / Slaughter pact
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 Echoing thruth
SB: 1 Return to dust
SB: 1 Path to exile (Really necesary??)
SB: 1 Pulse of the fields
EDIT: My bad! I just realize taht i posted the wrong list without wish!!
DB / SP will f*** Iona if they name white. Echoing thruth likes me against dredge (Ravenous trap does too) and belcher and TES. I'm not really sure if meddling mage is really necesary in 3x in this configuration together with extirpate. I was thinking on pithing needle to stop dangerous artifacts (vial, jitte, belcher and so on) on run 2 Counterbalance to replace its places against combo. Off course if i run balance i must add 1 additional top to my list...should i??
Last edited by GoldenCid; 03-19-2010 at 07:06 PM.
Fact or Fiction is your endgame card. It doesn't matter if you only get two cards from it because it's the two cards you want/need. It digs five deep and punishes ignorance. It almost always gets what you need and if it doesn't, it cleared the way for your Brainstorm to find what you need.- I also considered, due to the nature of speeding the deck up a little, at the time -2 FoF +2 Impulse. My teammate Media314r8 on here and I had a chat regarding the usefulness of FoF versus someone with experience creating the piles, and I agreed with him that often times you're getting 1-2 cards max from it if they do it correctly. Knowing that my personal goal is to play amongst the best crowd that I possibly can, this seems to be a likely scenario I would run into. Impulse allows you to dig 4 deep, but doesn't help when you want 2 of the cards you see. However, it does allow you to dig for a specific answer a lot better, and in junction with SDT, etc, you have an ability to clear the top 3, get a fresh 3, giving you 7-deep access to your library. It's somewhat of a weird idea.
Rergarding the number of four-drops, it doesn't necessarily matter if you have six-seven if you have enough ways to interact in the early turns where you're not in control. To me, the reason to play Landstill is the four-drops Fact or Fiction and Humility.
Too true. Landstill seems particularly bad right now with combo and reanimator in larger numbers. The problem with Landstill is that it's a fair deck in an unfair format. The more fair the format becomes, the better Landstill becomes. When people are sending hordes of zombies at you on the third or fourth turn or you're getting stormed out on the second turn or you can't play white spells anymore somewhere in between the second and fourth turn, Landstill is just outclassed. When people attack with creatures, Landstill's more than strong enough.I've stopped playing the deck a month ago though. Last tournament in my area featured 4 Reanimator decks and 4 Ichorid decks. Not a good field for Landstill. The last tournament I played with the deck, I've run the Black splash, because of extirpate and plague (and guess what, plague did nothing against merfolk I lost to).
Just split 1/2 in a small tournament with a redic. competitive meta. Pretty much fully powered decks and I thought I'd give my $.02 on the matchups I faced.
Round one: Cynthia with Merfolk
She starts slow without a vial, and I make a manabase. I counter a standstill, rip 2 factories and drop one of my own. 7 STP effects wins this matchup preboard. Factory beats go the distance with some help from Ajani.
Game two goes slow. She keeps shooting down my factories and I dont get an elspeth for forever. REB keeps things in check and I was holing a firespout as insurance the whole time. They cant hit your duals for fear of factories, which is nifty. I hit Ajani's ultimate twice and won with Jace M.'s ultimate.
Round 2: Kyle with Bant Survival
I don't remember what exactly got me game one, I think it was like 3 goyfs after he resolved a survival and I'd kept Iona out of play. UGLY.
Game two I counter lots of survivals but he eventually sticks one. I EE it before much harm can be done and an elspeth goes the distance with Ajani killing all his threats and doing the last 3 damage.
Game three took forever. He opened three survivals and I countered two, then on turn 4 he gets an iona naming white. I mised my one Jace to bounce it and stalled out with ajani and Jace M. stalling the board. I made the play error of tapping out to hard force (no other way to cast it) a force of will on my EE@2, when he had pridemage in play. I had been beating him with factories and soldiers the whole time, and he'd kept me off of ultimates. I end up doing the last 6 damage through an army of creatures with a mutavault given wings by elspeth and +1/+1 from a factory. Mutavault being a factory worker absolutely won me this game and thus this match.
Round 3: GBR slivers with another Kyle
Game one and two were similar, this was one of the weaker decks there and he had admittedly lucksacked into my bracket. 7 STP effects and planeswalkers go the distance both games, with Ajani and Els being MVP's.
Round 4 (Finals round 1) : Ben with 43land.dec
Ugh.
Game one he does his thing, keeping me tapped down with 3 ports.
Game two I build up a manabase despite 3 more ports (!) and get 2 loams with a macabre. I resolve a meddling mage on loam soon after and he goes to great lengths (intuition=>tolaria west=>barbarian ring) to kill it. I get an elspeth and a Jace. M on the board and start building jace counters and keeping him off business while countering his tutors and eventually hit another MM. I stupidly let him get academy ruins and he almost gets me in a slaverlock, but I beat him out with indestructable elspeth tokens and factories getting through his factories and 3 maze of iths.
Game 3 I counter some loams and drop an early mage on loam, all the while countering tutors. I hardcast DoJ for one, which he soon found a maze for, but it did some damage. I again manage to get a mutavault pumped by factories to go the distance against his factories.
Split (small) prizes with Eric who probably would have rolled me with MBaggro control.
-Meddling mage wins your tough matchups, save ichorid
-Faerie Macabre was lovely
-You don't really need sweepers main (I probably didn't need 5 in the board)
-Ajani IS that good
-Jace is totally relevant and very good.
-I never resolved a relevant humility
4 STP
3 EE
3 P2E
1 Ajani
2 Humility
4 Bstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace M.
4 FOW
3 Sp. S
3 SC
2 Els
1 DoJ (<=good call)
4 Factory
1 Mutavault
4 Strand
1 Mesa
1 S. tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volc
3 Island
3 Plains
SB:
3 Firespout (<= meh)
2 WoG (<= great, oddly)
2 REB (<= mad good)
2 MM (<= MVP)
4 Macabre
2 Negate (<= mad good)
I wouldn't change the MB. The SB, if I could do it again now I'd go -1 firespout, +1 MM. I'd like to find room for one more even, but I'm not sure what to cut or if 4 is needed.
Cheers!
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
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