Being able to wish for a pseudo Wrath seems good, but 5cc including BB are unplayable in my eyes.
It can't handle Iona because it only kills creatures with cc3 or lower.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Oh...you reffer to the instant coming with RoE. I felt a bit confused with your comment.
Marius' list has a good chance in form of edict considering iona. I don't know if edit is the best choice, maybe...doom blade or snuff out works better when more creatures are in play...
Another thing i've noticed is that cmc=3 for counter-top is almost missing here except for o-ring. Can this be solved with the addittion of 1 crucible of worlds??
One more, marius omitted massive removal except for just 1 EE...what impresions do you have about this?? Isn't wrath needed??
Last edited by GoldenCid; 04-11-2010 at 09:40 PM.
I think if Iona is such a big deal in your meta, you should probably look into diabolic edict or something likewise.
The reason is simple. Most decks using Iona (like reanimator) will only have Iona in play so edict is sufficient. The advantage of edict is that it hits 'shroud' creatures just as well (since an early inkwell can be devestating as well). Additionally it hits progenitus, nimble mongoose and perhaps other troublesome creatures as well.
If you're not playing a wishboard you could use chainer's edict since that has flashback, although I value instant higher then sorcery + flashback.
Doom blade is tagetted and conditional (non-black) and snuff-out is too dangerous because of the lifeloss (Landstill too often trades life points early game to set-up control mid/late game).
I agree with Felidae that CC5 BB is too much for the manabase to cope with. It can be difficult at times to get the much more needed WW or UU let alone BB in addition to those. I would play nevynneral's disk (with enlightened tutor in the board) before I would consider consume the meek. Although both options have very little appeal to me. Disk is at least more versatile then consume the meek and can be active on the same turn.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
That's a big assumption. Although it's generally true about reanimator, it's often not the case against survival builds.
If you're looking for a way to hit shroud creatures in addition to Iona, why not play curfew? It costs 1 less, it's not off-color and it's significantly better against reanimator (you opponent will have to discard the creature again before reanimating it).
When survival has an active survival and was able toput Iona into play (probably through retainers). You are probably losing anyway.
Curfew is a very narrow answer whereas edict can be useful in several different match-ups and that's why I suggested edict above anything else.
The fact that edict is useful against shroud creatures is an added advantage and not a reason in itself to play the card. I have 3 wrath effects in my main deck to deal with such creatures but I can imagine having some edicts can be useful from time to time to keep an early-game critter of the board.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
You could, you know, play Karakas. Much funnier when they drop Iona, you drop Standstill, they're all 'sweet, I have Iona and I get to draw three when you answer her,' and then you drop Karakas and enjoy their frowny faces.
You could even maindeck Karakas if you're running any number of Tolaria West, though I'm not sure I'd recommend that.
Once again that's quite an assumption you're making. If you're refering to the CA gap that's likely to occur with squee-recursion then we can either keep up with it, get rid of squee (eg by wishing for extirpate), or simply get rid of SotF. I've won quite a few games where my opponent had an active SotF at some point in the game.
I was suggesting it as a wishboard option (sorry if that wasn't clear, but I was assuming that's what we were discussing), so the question isn't so much whether edict is more versatile than curfew, but whether it would be better in a specific context, ie one where you would want to wish for it (so basically Iona or shroud creatures, unless you can think of something else). I think it is, if you're still running PtE as a more classic form of spot removal (which you should imo).
That would certainly be the best option, unfortunately it's not as easily tutorable as an instant.
Last edited by GoldenCid; 04-12-2010 at 10:13 PM.
Even if you are running a wishboard having versatile cards that can answer more then one specific threat seems preferable to a very narrow answer that serves only very few situations. I can't imagine that the deck has that much space in it's sideboard.
Is blocking CC3 that important for the deck? If you can consistently block spells at CC1&2 in legacy you are doing pretty good anyway. If you really think you need it, you have oblivion ring + 2 enlightened tutors. Considering that you are also running 4 top, 4 brainstorm and some fetchlands it shouldn't be too difficult to get the ring in your top 3 cards. Substituting mass removal (wrath) for vindicate seems like a weak solution by the way. If you let everything revolve aroung counter/top resolving I'd suggest playing a 'pure' counter-top deck instead of a hybrid like Marius' list.Yeah...but what to cmc=3 lack and counter - top??
Why are you looking at Marius' list anyway? Granted. It should have a decent game 1 against a lot of decks in the field where classic Landstill might have problems finishing the game and it is definetly better against combo. But it seems so vulnerable to all kinds of common hate (krosan grip, extirpate, crypt, pithing needle). You can't possibly expect counter-top to protect you from all those things.
Last edited by Reagens; 04-13-2010 at 06:37 AM.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
Crypt simply doesn't matter, so long as you play correctly. Extirpate and Leyline are the only GY hate cards you really don't want to see.But it seems so vulnerable to all kinds of common hate (krosan grip, extirpate, crypt, pithing needle).
Beyond that, though, Grip and Needle are definitely problems.
You fail to remember that most lists still run a wishable PtE. Ask yourself : in what situations would you want to wish for edict rather than PtE and in which curfew wouldn't be a better option? I don't see many, but I can think of quite a few where curfew would be better.
@ thopter lists : I still don't get why you would run that combo rather than painter-stone (à la Quinn) and just win. Could someone clear this up for me?
When you don't have room for both.
Painter-grindstone would make all the creature removal your opponent is sitting on game 1 (because of a lack of other targets) relevant. You wouldn't want that.
On the other hand I don't see why there should be any combo of any sorts at all in Landstill.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
Beside the Thopter / Sword combo (wich take only 3 Slots and could be replaced wich another Elspeth and or DoJ) we should focus on the 4 Balances/Tops wich make Hausmanns list unique (or at least let's say unusual).
I personaly don't like the hole idea at all, the list looks so susceptible against other CB decks without much improvement the the deck at all.
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you.
Wait, so you're saying you would run edict as the only wishable removal in your SB? That's madness, I'd rather run only PtE and be naked against iona or leviathan than not having a spot-removal option.
Point taken. That being said, most of the time you combo-off in the late game under the protection of CB and counters, so it's a moot point imo.
Why not?? Yeah, krosan, extirpate, needle, are terible cards...for thopter combo!! But we also have elspeth and mishra's for the win. The combo is a complement for aggresiveness here and not an archetype!
And by the way...for getting rid from some threatens a flip could be tested. In my case i'll try postboard (off course when i consider that it's appropiate): -1 meek -2 thopter +1 E. dragon +1Decree of justice + 1 crucible of worlds.
Thoughts?
I actually run no wishboard whatsoever because I need the space for my SB cards and because wish usually takes 2 turns to set up. IF I would use a wishboard I would want silver bullets for a number of situations that my MD can't handle and that have a game breaking effect. Since I run 4 Stp a Pte would have very little added value. Edict on the other hand could solve some problems that my MD can't handle.
Seems like you are in complete control anyway when you reach that stage. Apparently you have problems actually winning some games even though you have a counter-top hardlock. Adding a combo instead of utilizing kill conditions that are good on their own (DoJ, E.Dragon, Elspeth) barely looks as an ideal solution then...
Because in a metagame where there is an abundance of either GY based strategies (Loam, Lands and Reanimator) and answers to counter-top (mostly krosan grip) I don't see why you would play a strategy that relies both on your graveyard and your ability to keep artifacts/enchantments into play. Landstill is by design a deck that wants to get to the late game and win with CC4bombs that generate CA (wrath, elspeth, Fact of Fiction). Adding a combo has very little synergy with the deck in general.
Your idea for a transformational sideboard seems cute, but it will cost you a lot of SB space that you would rather spend on your bad matchups instead of trying to dodge their hate. I would much rather have an eternal dragon, DoJ or crucible which are good on their own then having to wait for the thopter combo...
Last edited by Reagens; 04-14-2010 at 03:39 AM. Reason: spelling
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
You're looking at it from a wrong perspective. The idea behing running cunning wish isn't solely to provide answers to situations your MD can't handle, most of the time it's just to have some added flexibility : you should see it as an overcosted but extremely versatile answer, which is exactly what you want in the late game. So once again, not running some form of sport-removal (ie not edict) in your wishboard is pure madness imo.
Wait, I didn't say you should run a combo kill in landstill at all. I'm just saying that IF you were to put a combo in the deck, painter-stone is probably better than thopter. Here's an argument for running a combo-kill though : in an ideal situation you can take your time to kill your opponent once you are in complete control, but in practice time matters and you might need to win before the end of the round. Also, these combo pieces are the only tutorable kills you have (DoJ, dragon and elspeth are all very good but you can't tutor for them).
What does everyone think about this list:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34525
It uses Isochron in the main, and Descendant of Kiyomaro and Disk in the side. Interesting choices, but I'm not sure I'm sold on Isochron (at least not 3 of them). Theres just too much hate for it these days, even in game 1.
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