[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[GoldenCid]

Paiter - stone combo is not as good as thopter here. Thopter relies on artifacts and no creatures. On the other side i see a mistaken conception here, to include a combo is not playing a combo deck. So if there's krosan...what?? They side it in for crash humility, CB on so on. And needle, extirptate, are all the common hate we are used to. The combo does not inpairs the ability of winning of the deck. For the contrary it makes it more aggresive.

[Mark Sun]

What does everyone think about this list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34525

It uses Isochron in the main, and Descendant of Kiyomaro and Disk in the side. Interesting choices, but I'm not sure I'm sold on Isochron (at least not 3 of them). Theres just too much hate for it these days, even in game 1.

Actually I believe Joel (mossivo1986) and I discussed on the phone some of his early iterations of Landstill, and Descendant was one of the choices. My friend played against that guy at Indy, btw, seems fine but commented after that the guy sided out the Isochron's in g2 and g3 because of his Pridemages, etc. I mean, is it really worth it for potential 2-for-1's?

[Reagens]

I think descendant is a very interesting SB choice in general for landstill although I prefer kitchen finks for now because the life gain is not conditional (minor point) and finks is very useful as a blocker against both gobs and merfolk.
I tested a version of landstill with scepter a while back and the fact that you can get 2-for-1'd quite often wat too detrimental. It reminds me of the article 'the danger of cool things'.

Paiter - stone combo is not as good as thopter here. Thopter relies on artifacts and no creatures. On the other side i see a mistaken conception here, to include a combo is not playing a combo deck. So if there's krosan...what?? They side it in for crash humility, CB on so on. And needle, extirptate, are all the common hate we are used to. The combo does not inpairs the ability of winning of the deck. For the contrary it makes it more aggresive.

Why do you want the deck to be more aggresive? And when in the game? Do you feel that even if you get into the mid/late game you are still losing too much games? What matchups do you seek to improve by using thopter/sword?

Personally I don't want to be dependant on any enchantments/artifacts. There is too much hate for it and I would be rather casting spells that are good all the time (wrath, decree,...) instead of enchantments/artifacts that make you either VERY dependent on them (humility) or require you to invest too much sources (counter/top, thopter/sword). And in the case of thopter/sword it's even worse since you need to have both to have a reasonable effect for your investment.
As a last point. I want my opponents to board badly against me. I noticed a while back that even though I had no enchantments/artifacts played in game 1. 95% of my opponents boarded grip or something similar against me game 2 because they are expecting enchantments. I prefer those slots to be dead for them. Quite a few of my opponents also board gy hate against me. Which is fine again, because in my list I only run 1 solitary E. Dragon. It is a strength of my deck that graveyard hatred, enchantment/artifact hatred and creature removal are all very situational against me and thus leaves them with quite some useless cards against my deck. In your case you are hoping to overwhelm them with artifacts/enchantments but I doubt this is a very consistent strategy.

[GoldenCid]

Once more...we are not dependant on we are complemented with.
In my experience what i've seen with thopterstill is that we have de agresiveness of a strong synergy with the heavy protection typical of landstill.
Yeah, maybe we loose son recurses compare with traditional landstill in form of wishes but with edict, the lifegaining of the combo and the tutors to o-ring and explosives to regulate artifacts and enchants we have a good deck here. I'm not seeing better or worse than the classic but a good deck for sure.

[Mark Sun]

because in my list I only run 1 solitary E. Dragon.

I am all of the sudden really interested

Care to elaborate?

I've honestly considered testing Thopter/Sword combo in Landstill (bonus - DoJ tokens + Sword = profit?), to see if there is any merit from running it, just haven't had time. Haven't played this deck since the end of last month, though.

[GoldenCid]

I am all of the sudden really interested

Care to elaborate?

I've honestly considered testing Thopter/Sword combo in Landstill (bonus - DoJ tokens + Sword = profit?), to see if there is any merit from running it, just haven't had time. Haven't played this deck since the end of last month, though.

Tested both versions (but no thopter together DoJ). And both has it's streghts and weakness.
Thopter: if you set the combo, you can gain much life and time to get sources or just win. So we have 3 form to win: Elspeth, thopter and mishra's. However, the introduction of meek thopter cost the removal of some nice sources such as, crucile, DoJ and explosives. This leds to a diminised ability to deal with permanents.

Classical: For me the advantage of this version is that we have a big deal of recourses to manage permanents. In contrast it's slower than thopter version.

For references and comments i post my two versions:

Thopterstill


/ Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
2 [U] Swamp (3)
3 [U] Island (2)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
2 [6E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [8E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda


Classical

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [MM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [BD] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [M10] Doom Blade

[rsaunder]

This seems terrible: like it weakens the core of the deck while providing a clock not much faster than elspeth. Does anyone have any numbers or results to back this up at all or is this just "on paper speculation?"

[Oceanus]

However, the introduction of meek thopter cost the removal of some nice sources such as, crucile, DoJ and explosives. This leds to a diminised ability to deal with permanents.

I couldn't afford to cut Explosives, albeit you do run tutors. It just feels like the deck is getting watered down...perhaps akin to what rsaunder is getting at re: "weakens the core of the deck". An explosives @1 from the opening hand can be game breaking.

[RogueMTG]

This seems terrible: like it weakens the core of the deck while providing a clock not much faster than elspeth. Does anyone have any numbers or results to back this up at all or is this just "on paper speculation?"

I've toyed with the idea, but in the end gave up on it. It doesn't really help solve any of Landstill's problem matchups.

[GoldenCid]

So...discard thopterstill?
What do you think on my classical list?? I'll add a jace the mindsculptor, what owuld you cut for him???

And do you think it's worthly cut a MoI for a 3rd EE and playing with 23 lands??

[RogueMTG]

So...discard thopterstill?
What do you think on my classical list?? I'll add a jace the mindsculptor, what owuld you cut for him???

I've dropped Fact or Fiction for Jace. He's just so much more versatile. He can affect the board, gives you CA without giving your opponent any information, and is a maindeck out to Iona on white.

I used to say I didn't want to play Jace because if I was spending 4 mana on my own turn I should be winning the game. After actually testing him, Jace meets that requirement.

[GoldenCid]

I'll run 1 jace plus 2 fof plus 3 CW...i think that's versatile!

2 FoF or 2 SDT??

And-...does it worth cut a MoI for a 3rd EE and play with 23 lands??

Remember that i'd run:

2 Elspeth
1 Jace
2 Wrath
1 Humility
2 FoF

[rsaunder]

I'll run 1 jace plus 2 fof plus 3 CW...i think that's versatile!

2 FoF or 2 SDT??

How many 4cc's are you running? I'm running SDT's to smooth out my curve and draws: they fulfill similar roles late game but very different roles early game (FoF pitches to force and SDT does something relevant).

And agreed 100% with Rouge on Jace 2.0. He's amazing.

[GoldenCid]

I edited my post

[rsaunder]

6 4cc spells is honestly a tad... low. You can certainly get away with running FoF.

[GoldenCid]

sO...you recommend fof o sdt??

[rsaunder]

I run SDT, but I also run quite a few more planeswalkers than you do, and need the early game filtering.

[Felidae]

Has Maze of Ith added any decent feature to the deck without a way to tutor it up (like Tolaria West)?
My current list looks somehow like your current build with some minor tweaks:

3x Flooded
1x Marsh Flats
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Mishras Factory
2x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins

4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Path to Exile <- can be changed into Diabolic Edic if the meta is full of reanimator
3x Engineered Explosiv
1x Wrath of God

4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
3x Counter Spell

4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Cunning Wish

2x Elspeth
2x Decree of Justice

SB:
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Extirpate
1x Curfew
1x Path to Exile / Diabolic Edict
1x Return to Dust/ DIsmantling Blow
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormnond's Crypt
1x Ravenous Trap
3x Ethersworm Canonist
1x Crucible of the Worlds

I allways felt that 3 Wishes are to much, considering that you don't need your wishboard in every situation.
Just like your list I tried to design the maindeck to beat any kind creature based decks with the ability trought my sideboard to change the deck to fight combo, reanimator or dredge.
Any ideas how to improve the list ?

Cheers

[GoldenCid]

I'd add echoing truth in your wishboard, it helps to kill dredge's and belcher's tokens...and...1 additional wish should be fine.

[RogueMTG]

Has Maze of Ith added any decent feature to the deck without a way to tutor it up (like Tolaria West)?
...

No, Maze of Ith is bad in Landstill because you need your lands + landdrops to make mana really badly.