Imo, wish boards should be as small as possible. E. truth really doesnt handle any problems that EE doesn't handle and this guy's poor SB has been bastardized with all sorts of unnecessarty slots already. I mean:
1x Pulse of the Fields === good
1x Extirpate ===reason to run wish
1x Curfew ==== totally unnecessary with Edict
1x Path to Exile / Diabolic Edict ============ Just run edict.
1x Return to Dust/ DIsmantling Blow ===== wasted slot
2x Faerie Macabre ===== never going to see enough of a 2-of to make a difference
2x Relic of Progenitus ===and vvv
1x Tormnond's Crypt ==== consolidate your hate. 4 Macabre, 2 crypt = you beat reanimator and ichorid
1x Ravenous Trap ==== this is almost never useful... how many times do you really see ichorid? And have this make a difference where extirpate doesn't?
3x Ethersworm Canonist === I prefer counters and MM, but if you're only worried about storm (which judging by the rest of your board is not the case) he's good
1x Crucible of the Worlds ==== weaksauce with only 2 wastelands
0x enlightened tutor ==== this is the second best reason to run wish
0x counterspell-type-cards ==== ????
So I'd run... your MB -1 Path, +1 humility, because it wins games and 7 STP MB is totally unnecessary and:
1 e. tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse (maybe)
1 Edict
1 P2E
3 Negate // MM// Cannonist (I'd go with negate, boarding in counters is such a good strategy against combo and reanimator, but cannonist would be better strictly against combo)
4 Macabre
2 Crypt/relic
1 Crucible
I'd probably also find a way to fit 2 Jace 2.0's in MB. They're such a house against the format right now.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I tested UWb landstill a bit on MWS and I'm loving this deck so far. Humility and Elspeth are some of the best cards I've played yet.
Things I'm not really certain about are:
- Karakas/Ruins/T.West: They've all helped me win games, but sometimes I'd have preferred a 3rd Wasteland and maybe 2 Basics.
- Combo Mathup: ANT seems pretty hard.
- Win Condition: Alot of people seem to run DoJ as well (or even combo's such as Thopter). Is it wrong to just run 3 Elspeth? (Ofcourse 4 factories are a decent wincon, especially under a humility, as well)
- Ench/Arti hate (Grip, Pridemage even): Somehow I encountered very little while testing (mainly tested preboard though :\) but being so dependant on enchantments and artifacts (Humility mainly but also Top & Crucible) might be weak in a meta with alot of Ench/Arti hate? (Humility won the majority of the games it lands though, because it's just so good)
- Counters: Is 9 counters too few and is 17 blue count enough for FoW?
// Land: 23
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
// CA & CQ: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
// Removal & Boardcontrol: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
2 Crucible of Worlds
// Counters: 9
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
// Win: 3
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard: 15
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
Would you mind to share your md list also, please?Originally Posted by rsaunder
Team Legal Actions.
I don't run wish, personally since I like having a SB, but this is my current list. Forgive me for the abbreviations:
4 STP
3 EE
2 WoG
2 Humility
4 Fow
3 CS
2 Spell Snare (could be pierce in the right meta)
4 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill
2 Crucible
2 Elspeth
2 Jace 2.0
1 Ajani Vengent
4 Strand
1 Mesa
1 Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volc
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Mighra's
3 Waste
SB:
4 Macabre
2 Crypt
3 MM
2 Negate
2 REB
2 Firespout
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Wish doesn't wreck your board. It only needs to take up three slots out of the board: removal (Path/Edict), Pulse of the Fields, and a Disenchant effect. (Tutor, Dismantling Blow, or Return to Dust) Extirpate can simply take the place of one of the graveyard hate pieces in the board.
"Attack with Order of the Ebon Hand."
"K, block with Jotun Grunt?"
"It has pro white."
"Swords?"
"It still has pro white."
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Twitter: @shawnldewey
I would value consistency over flexibility here. Both manabases are fine but the ones including tolaria west cave a little quicker to dedicated hate (waste + stifle,…). If very few decks pressure your manabase in your metagame and you have an abundance of reanimator and such it’s a decent option.
It is. This needs to be answered by your sideboard. Pre-side is a cakewalk for ANT since you have very little pressure and eventually run out of counters for their chant/discard effects. You can sometimes win through multiple counters + factory pressure.
I would not consider it to be ‘wrong’, Elspeth is a very strong card but I’d prefer not to be too dependant on it. Hence I run 3 DoJ and 1 Elspeth. You really shouldn’t underestimate DoJ. It serves many functions whereas Elspeth is a better win condition but a lot less flexible.
This point has been made several times. There are people that are convinced that you can run your opponent out of answers for your art/ench and others (like me) who think they are a liability best to be avoided. The power of humility can be truly amazing but is too unreliable postboard. I did run it for a while though and was quite happy with it under certain circumstances.
I think you blue count is high enough but perhaps a bit on the light side. When boarding out blue cards I think you’ll need to side out forces as well (since you will have difficulty supporting it consistently). Personally I run 19 blue spells.
You have enough counters, but that really depends on your metagame (I run 1 spell snare extra)
Your list seems very one sided to me which is not necessarily a bad thing (you could easily call it focused as well). But you REALLY need either Elspeth or Humility to stick and preferably both which I presume will be difficult (not to mention slow) at times.
I’d be very interested to hear which match-ups go well for you and which don’t. Did you do tests with the SB as well on MWS? How did that go?
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
That's 3 less slots that I get to board in in the majority of my games. Board space is tight as it is, and I don't like cutting it shorter running narrow cards to wish for.
And before someone goes on and says that I just don't know how to play it or haven't tested it, I T8'd Vestal with a wish-build, losing to Bryant in T8. I've just moved away from wish, it's too much of a crutch when it boils right down to it, and you don't need it.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Unless your meta is infested with reanimator, (in which case you should probably be playing something esle) with your MD I would do this:
-Karakas/T.West/Ruins
+Island/Plains/Wasteland
Reasoning: You need double blue and double white in every game in order to win, this helps you stabilize a lot. Also you're running 2x MD crucible, you should have at least 3 wastes to make use of them.
-1 Humility
+1 Wrath of God
Reasoning: 3x Humility is too much, and multiple copies are dead cards. Sometimes you just need to blow stuff up, especially for the times when you can't reliably keep Humility around. (Such as post board against green decks.)
-1 Elsepth
+1 Decree of Justice
Reasoning: DoJ is really the only real trump we have over other decks that play man-lands/wastes under Standstill. It has the ability to do things Elspeth can't (like ambush attackers). Plus it's not dead when you already have an Elsepth out like another Elspeth would be.
-1 Standstill
+1 Jace, The Mindsculptor
Reasoning: For one thing, Jace is an absolute beating (Maindeck out to Iona, insane CA turn after turn, and a win condition in a pinch). Also there are some matchups where Standstill can be a serious liability, whereas Jace should pretty much always have value.
Some answers:
IMO the 9 MD counters are fine. ATM I'm down to 8.
17 Blue cards you can mostly get away with, I feel much more comfortable with 18, but if there isn't room there isn't room.
Disenchant hate: It's out there, but Humility does protect itself against everything that isn't Grip. (Pridemage/Trygon). Some people don't bring it in, some do, honestly you're not totally reliant on your artifacts/enchantments either way. Just because everyone that plays white runs Swords to Plowshares doesn't mean people are going to stop playing Tarmogoyf. Just because everyone playing green packs 2x Krosan Grip in the SB doesn't justify not playing Humility.
Edit: (Suffice to say, I haven't lost a match because my Humility got Gripped. It's a useful tool, not a crutch.)
What caused Landstill to be pushed out of the Tier 1 category? Where all the aggro decks too much for it to handle?
Looking at the DTB section should give you an idea.
ANT is big and is a very difficult match-up without 4-5 dedicated slots in the SB. Because you very often lose game 1 they have 2 chance of dodging your hate or just go nuts before your hate goes online.
Merfolk is an absolute beating.
Ichorid, Goblins and Loam are difficult as well.
The fact that counter/top decks are practicaly a walk-over is not enough anymore.
It's still a strong deck in the right metagame with the right pilot though.
@RogueMTG
I can follow everything you say execpt your argument for humility.
The problem with humility is that WHEN humility is destroyed/bounced that you will likely face lethal beatings. Also, when you only have humility late game it is still a possibility that you will be beaten to death with 1/1 tokens. Especially when you are running 2 or less WoG to complement your humility.
The plow argument is false as a plowed 'goyf will mostly not cost you the game while a bounced/gripped humility could very easily mean you're facing lethal next turn.
Also humility can be answered 1 for 1. There is no CA involved. Wrath on the other hand can set your opponent seriously back on cards.
Humility can be very strong in certain circumstances but if you rely too much on it, it will start to cost you games because your opponent got the answer at the right time. Seeing the amount of play SDT and fetchland gets this should not even be too difficult for even non-blue decks.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
A couple of things probably. Aggro decks are certainly not one of them.
Merfolk can be a rough matchup depending on your build. People generally viewed it as a horrible matchup and abandoned the deck due to Merfolk's popularity.
Less people playing the deck means less chances of Top8s. With that and the "rebirth" of 43Lands and Reanimator ATM you can be looking at a new and hostile metagame. But Landstill is extremely versatile. And honestly it's a meta-game deck, IMO it'll just take time to find the proper adjustments for the current meta before it can come back. In the past couple tournaments it's performed pretty consistently across several pilots (Me/Rsaunder/Warden) Somewhere around: X-2/X-1-2/X-0-3. Often finishing just outside of the top-8 (Top16/24). It just needs that little something more to push it back into the next level. (Or, you know, better pilots xD.)
IMO, If you've let the game get to the point where you have no cards are facing down an army of lethal dudes, and are banking on your Humility to get you there, you're doing it wrong and you would have lost a long time ago without it anyway. Humility is there as a tool to buy you a little time to answer their dudes without being substantially pressured and craft your hand/board until you're in a position that you really can't lose. Like I said, it's not a crutch it's a tool. I plow/path guys all the time even when Humility is out (just in case).
The only point where Humility is a 1 for 1 is if the same turn you cast it, they immediately Grip it, in which case you played into it. It's too good not to play, in some matchups it's an "I win" card, and really it's the only way you can play unfairly.
They have to spend turns Brainstorming/Toping/Fetching to answer it in order to even have a chance at getting you (all the while you are doing the same thing, except to just lock them out). They're not blowing up the Humility FTW, they are blowing it up so that they can be allowed to play Magic. That's value enough for me.
Last edited by RogueMTG; 04-23-2010 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Replying w/o double posting. + Typos
Well...i did the mine with thopterstill! Gone 2-1-1 last weekend.
Just brief notes:
Pro:
-You can recover a game in an instant and turn it completely in your favour by comboing.
-I has a good percentage of the control of classical landstill with the chance of accelerating the victories.
- I got some 2-0!
- The life gaining in the mb make us less dependant on wish.
Troubles:
-The permanent control is poor compared with classical. Some critters on table make you waste a tutor to EE or O-ring.
-Covers very bad the cmc=3 with counter-top. Really cmc=3 awful cards come into play.
- I miss the lack of mana base disruption. My 2 wastelands in CL, solve some troubles refferred to the mana base / manlands controled by my opo.
Considering the draw engine and the mana base, i didn't feel major difference.
Comments?
Hi guys,
I have not posted in here for ages, but wanted to let you know that the GP Lyon (May, 7th / 8th) had a Legacy side event of 144 players on Sunday with numerous Landstills in the field. I, playing a very classic U/W Landstill list, did finish 11th after 8 rounds of Swiss and had to face two other Landstill players. Two friends of mine were playing a Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek Landstill variant, and another friend told me he had seen several other players with the deck as well.
Not sure if it is indicative of any trend, but Landstill was definitely NOT a marginal deck at the event. The Bazaar of Moxen tournament, to be held this week-end in Annecy, should confirm whether this was just a fad, of if the deck truly is regaining popularity.
Oh my, I haven't played in magic for months. three sets came out, don't even know how the meta shifted. Yet, i feel like landstill is the only deck for me :O
any suggestion. Two colors, three colors? Black or red? (No idea what my meta will be, I've been out for months...)
Going back to 'threshold' like deck is tempting, but i want to resist. Must resist.
I have been playing the red splash and likeing it, firesprout is great, and comes down one turn faster then WOG and it's important when playing vs daze and such.
Personally I find 4c build to be a better contender in this metagame, on a basis of Pernicious Deed being awesome, and having 3 color answers to Iona maindeck.
Doesn't it seem that innocent blood may prove a better out to iona? It can come down on turn one whereas a swing to the face has to be taken if edict is used. Besides that it doesn't seem to have much of an effect on us considering the fact that when we do control creatures they're often soldier tokens. I understand edict is instant speed, but the utility seems relevant.
I personally am not a fan of the red splash because then you don't have a quick answer to iona on white. But if reanimator isn't much of a factor for you and goblins/merfolk/zoo are then go for the red splash. I like the red splash if you don't mind getting generally hosed by reanimator.
Actually, I faced 2 iona in my small tournament. I haven't played in ages, so the surprise was even bigger. Iona naming white, gg.
That sais, Reanimator completely owned me... Sure, the new jace (everyone kept talking about it) would have helped. But the iona thing was on the table very quick (first turn entomb, second turn exhume with FOW backup...)
Then I thought about karakas. Then, I heard it skyrocked... So that isn't an option.
The red helped me crush the aggro deck. Fire sprout and Lighting helix give me alot of time. WOG seem just too slow
I haven't posted in the Landstill thread in a long time, even though Landstill is still my favorite deck (and I still think it's the strongest deck in the format).
It saddens me how much the deck has lost interest. It's also unfortunate to see that there is still no one packing maindeck Counterbalance.
I'm trying an experimental decklist right now that I have high hopes for, just figured I'd post the decklist to see what others thought:
U/W/b Kaejur Control
Counterbalance Landstill
/ Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [7E] Island (3)
2 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [OD] Standstill
2 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BRB] Wrath of God
2 [JGC] Vindicate
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JGC] Vindicate
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
A few quick things:
I used to roll with U/W with Oblivion Rings, which is still a valid approach. Currently, I'm using a black splash for Vindicates instead.
Counterbalance maindeck is insanely powerful, and with a curve that works beautifully to support it, I cannot understand why no one uses it.
Jace 2.0 is at the same power level as Elspeth, and replaces the 2 DoJ's I used to run. It's versatility is great, obviously the power is there, and it's a strong win condition. It also has amazing synergies with Counterbalance.
I've long had a love/hate relationship with Standstill, and have been considering ways to remove them for a very long time, to no success. Now with Jace, I'm attempting a 2/2 split with Predict. Standstill is still too good to remove completely, but only 2 clogs me up less and gives me less dead cards against decks like Merfolk. 2 Predict is easily supported with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, and 2 Jace. I haven't gotten much testing with this configuration yet but I have high hopes.
Everything else is fairly standard.
I really missed wasteland when i didn't use it!
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