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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #3961
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    @ hanni

    Your list is quite interesting, but I have a few questions.

    First, why do you play Counterspell over Spell Snare? Isn't CB in your list the card that has the purpose that Counterspell has in the standard build (having a solution to pretty much everything in the mid and late game)? Spell Snare seems to be a better choice in this slot because of its speed and its cost. Of course Spell Snare doesn't work that well with CB, but have you considered or tested it? Maybe a split could be an option too.

    Second, is Predict really a strong enough card drawer in Landstill? It gets you one extra card for two mana which is of course not bad, but a card like FoF gets you more cards or a card you really need. Maybe FoF would be to high for your curve, but I don't think that Predict fits in this Deck. It's better in decks like Threshold or Fish that don't have the mana base for FoF.

    Third, what is the point of playing Vindicate in the Sideboard? Of course it is definately a good card in this deck, but why having it in the board too? Its flexibility makes it a good card. So you could board it in against pretty much every deck except combo maybe. I mean, destroying a land for 1BW is pretty bad, destroying a creature or an artifact or an enchantment for that cost too. Just the fact that you have the option to use it as a solution for many problems makes it playable. My point is that this card is a great maindeck choice because of its versatility, but in the sideboard you want to have more spezialized cards like PtE or MM.

    Fourth, you say that CB works "beautifully" with the decks mana curve. I doubt this. You have a really lot of lands (23), quite a lot 4cc (7) and only a few 3cc (2). It should still be enough to get CB to work, but it's really not that strong as it is in other decks.

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  2. #3962

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I play a 3/3 split of CB and spell snare and it's cool...

  3. #3963

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    hey whats up guys, just got back into mtg and am going to play in a tourny this thursday. I run UWb wish and just want to know what to name vs ichorid with meddling mage? or what should i name against any combo decks with meddling mage? i was never good at the match up

  4. #3964

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    For Ichorid, generally Cabal Therapy followed by Dread Return. You should be able to counter the Return without Mage, but Therapy can be annoying as hell.

    For ANT, go with Ad Nauseam, especially since everyone seems to be running Saito's list nowadays. If you're looking at a Doomsday or IGG list and they're at low life, you might consider those as well.

    For Belcher, go with Empty the Warrens, followed by Belcher, cause you can counter the Belcher a lot easier than the warrens.

    For Enchantress, it depends on what point the game is at. If you're dropping it turn two, name Argothian or Presence. Later on, one of Sigil, Mesa, Words of War, or Replenish, rather heavily dependent on your hand and how the game has turned out so far.

    That, I think, is all the decent combo decks, and I'm fairly sure those are the right things to name. Feel free to correct me, people.

  5. #3965

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    thanks a lot for the input, really appreciate it.

  6. #3966
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Vs Enchantress in the late game name replenish first. if they can't recur the win conditions it gets easier. Replenish --> Words --> Sigil. there last out is decking you... Good luck with that.

  7. #3967
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Hanni's list looks pretty dam good. I like how Landstill moved toward Planeswalkers as wincons instead of the old school Decree of Justice.

    However, I have a hypothetical question for the Landstill players. I keep asking myself this question whenever I enter the Landstill thread so I figured I would finally ask it. If Mana Drain were unbanned, would you revert back to Decree as the win con? Given that Mana Drain is just a better counterspell, I'd imagine that it would be played instead of counterspell rather than a supplement to counterspell. I know most mana costs in Legacy are low (hence the dominance of CB in the control scene) but Mana Drain can also counter some pretty high CC stuff like Ad Nausuem, Natural Order, Force of Will, etc. Mana Drain allows you to sink all of your mana into something that wins the game quickly. If you get into a counterwar over something, you could have 3 4/4 angels on turn 3 if you Mana Drain a FoW --> Decree.

    Or maybe the deck would develop differently?
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  8. #3968
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    If Mana Drain were legal, we'd be running Gifts Ungiven.

    First, why do you play Counterspell over Spell Snare? Isn't CB in your list the card that has the purpose that Counterspell has in the standard build (having a solution to pretty much everything in the mid and late game)? Spell Snare seems to be a better choice in this slot because of its speed and its cost. Of course Spell Snare doesn't work that well with CB, but have you considered or tested it? Maybe a split could be an option too.
    Counterspell is 2cc and Spell Snare is 1cc primarily. Other than that, Spell Snare is narrow and Counterspell can answer more spells.

    Second, is Predict really a strong enough card drawer in Landstill? It gets you one extra card for two mana which is of course not bad, but a card like FoF gets you more cards or a card you really need. Maybe FoF would be to high for your curve, but I don't think that Predict fits in this Deck. It's better in decks like Threshold or Fish that don't have the mana base for FoF.
    FoF is 4cc and I need a 2cc spell there for Counterbalance. I've been unsatisfied with Standstill for a long time and that's why I've decided to test Predict out. The change from Standstill to Predict is still in the testing stages so I won't make any comments yet.

    Third, what is the point of playing Vindicate in the Sideboard? Of course it is definately a good card in this deck, but why having it in the board too? Its flexibility makes it a good card. So you could board it in against pretty much every deck except combo maybe. I mean, destroying a land for 1BW is pretty bad, destroying a creature or an artifact or an enchantment for that cost too. Just the fact that you have the option to use it as a solution for many problems makes it playable. My point is that this card is a great maindeck choice because of its versatility, but in the sideboard you want to have more spezialized cards like PtE or MM.
    Incase 2 MD Vindicates isn't enough and I want to play games 2 and 3 with 3 or 4 of them. What more specialized cards would I bring in when I need to handle more problematic spells like Survival or something? There's other options of course, like Engineered Explosives, but they would essentially be doing the same thing. So what's the point of not running more Vindicates, or at least some other artifact/enchantment answers? I already run PtE and MM in the sideboard...

    Fourth, you say that CB works "beautifully" with the decks mana curve. I doubt this. You have a really lot of lands (23), quite a lot 4cc (7) and only a few 3cc (2). It should still be enough to get CB to work, but it's really not that strong as it is in other decks.
    It does work beautifully. Once CounterTop is online, I almost always answer 1cc and 2cc spells. I'm unable to effectively answer 3cc like other CounterTop decks, but I can instead effectively answer 4cc spells. While that may not be quite as good, I'm also running other answers like Vindicate and Counterspell to handle the 3cc spells that CounterTop doesn't. My deck doesn't use CounterTop as a crutch, it uses it as just another control tool I have at my disposal in addition to everything else, which just so happens to create card advantage for every spell countered after the first, in a deck that relies on card advantages to win (usually).

    Don't compare CounterTop in other decks to CounterTop in Landstill. That's the mistake people always make and why no one appreciates MD Counterbalance in Landstill.

  9. #3969
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    If Mana Drain were legal, we'd be running Gifts Ungiven.
    Why? Which 4 would you choose? I'm intrigued.

    Predict looks ok. Its nice when your opponent is playing Doomsday or Mystical Tutor/Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, I'd imagine it would be weaker than Standstill. It seems really bad if you are going to name something and then choose your opponent. Your opponent can SDT in response, BS in response or even Fetch in response.
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  10. #3970
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Why? Which 4 would you choose? I'm intrigued.

    Predict looks ok. Its nice when your opponent is playing Doomsday or Mystical Tutor/Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, I'd imagine it would be weaker than Standstill. It seems really bad if you are going to name something and then choose your opponent. Your opponent can SDT in response, BS in response or even Fetch in response.
    Take a look at Vintage. We can't grab Yawgmoth's Will, but there are still a ton of broken piles that a Gifts can singlehandedly get. I think there is some sort of Depths/Hexmage pile that can turn into a game win, among others.

    What my point is, if they unbanned a card like Mana Drain, the deck would be capable of running I-win cards like Gifts. Regardless, they won't take Mana Drain off the banned list because it is way too rediculous.

    ---

    Predict is weaker than Standstill in that it only draws you 2 cards instead of 3, but that is made up for by Predict being more castable more often. Standstill can only be dropped on a clean board. If the opponent has aggro in play, it's dead in hand until the board is cleared. What if I need my draw spell to work before the board is clear, i.e I need to draw spells to clear the board? If my opponent runs manlands/Wastelands/Vials, my Standstills are completely dead for that entire matchup.

    Standstill only helps when you're in a good or stable position, but doesn't pull you out of lousy ones.

    Predict has 10 cards to work with. 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, 2 Jace. The first 4 are only 1 time effects, so it would have to be properly timed. The last 6 are constant-use effects. What that means is, once I put a Top in play, all of my Predicts will be draw 2's for the rest of the game. With Jace, I can use the fateseal ability to ramp counters and still draw 2 with Predict, or I could simply use the Brainstorm ability and use Predict to dump the worst card in the graveyard while I draw 2.

    I would never cast Predict unless I was capable of drawing 2 from it, unless:

    I was in such a desperate situation where I simply needed an answer that I didn't have right away, or I lost the game.

    Otherwise, it just sits in hand dead until I can get a draw 2 from it. However, Standstill is still going to sit in hand dead more frequently, and for longer durations.

    ---

    To be honest, I was considering going to 3 Predict, cutting the 2 Standstills in the testing version of my deck, and going up to 3 Vindicates. I'm not really sure about this though, and so I want to continue to test the 2/2 split of Predict/Standstill.

  11. #3971
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Predict is weaker than Standstill in that it only draws you 2 cards instead of 3, but that is made up for by Predict being more castable more often. Standstill can only be dropped on a clean board. If the opponent has aggro in play, it's dead in hand until the board is cleared. What if I need my draw spell to work before the board is clear, i.e I need to draw spells to clear the board? If my opponent runs manlands/Wastelands/Vials, my Standstills are completely dead for that entire matchup.

    Standstill only helps when you're in a good or stable position, but doesn't pull you out of lousy ones.
    That is only true in your case because of the absence of Decree. In fact most of the lists posted in this thread recently have seemed so far away from what the fundamentals of Landstill were I would almost make the argument that they should not be in the Landstill thread. Then again perhaps you made that argument for me when you suggested cutting Standstills for Predicts.

    The list you have posted looks good as a three color control deck BUT at the point in your developing of the list Standstill becomes a weak card you are no longer playing Landstill you are playing a control deck that happens to be running Standstill because most of the card advantage draw cards in the format are to mana intense to be useful in Legacy.

    The ENTIRE point of Landstill as a deck concept is that you can play Standstill at nearly anytime during the match up because you will be able to win the game without breaking Standstill where your opponent cannot allowing you access to a 2 Mana Ancestral that is legal in Legacy and we are allowed to run 4 of.

    I apologize for injecting the history lesson but when I come looking for this thread and it isn't even in the deck to beat forum yet clearly Landstill should be able to beat the entire deck to beat forum consistently I have to wonder what the hell has happened. With cross hate for Reanimate hitting Landstills worst match ups IMO Ichorid and Loam Decks, I am wondering why results are not getting put up with this deck anymore.

    This is merely speculation but what I am seeing in alot of lists is succumbing to playing cards that are fun and not playing cards that win games. I am also seeing a huge shift away from Landstill as a concept whitch IMO is a primary reason for the general lack of success that seems to be occurring. I'm sure people are winning with the deck but as I scanned through the last few pages I failed to see anybody posting a list after winning an large event with it. Sure playing the new Jace is cool but Fact or Fiction is a far stronger card in any match up I can think of where Standstill could be difficult to cast. Typically anything where Standstill is hard to cast runs Vial and several threats, the same threats that prevent you from casting Standstill will destroy Jace. A huge part of why Landstill worked so well was because of the hybrid on draw spells between FOF and Standstill and how in any match up atleast one or the other is incredibly strong. Without resolving card advantage Landstill is an absolutly aweful deck as you choke up on excessive lands and can have difficulty finding the appropriate cards you require to deal with threats at hand in the time you have, in short Landstill is an absolutly aweful deck when it comes to just blind top decks. Sure you can get lucky rips but without genuine card quantity advantage you will not consistently win with Landstill.
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  12. #3972
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by konsultant View Post
    The ENTIRE point of Landstill as a deck concept is that you can play Standstill at nearly anytime during the match up because you will be able to win the game without breaking Standstill where your opponent cannot allowing you access to a 2 Mana Ancestral that is legal in Legacy and we are allowed to run 4 of.
    Looking over this thread the past couple days, I have to agree with konsultant. Landstill was my deck of choice years ago, and coming back to the game I was surprised to see this deck pushed out of the DtB forum.

    The original point of Landstill was always to drop the Standstill on a clean board while still hitting with factories (or Mutavaults, or dare I say, Faerie Conclave) and if anyone had a problem, pop SS to find the FoW you need. Counterbalance seems like a really good fit into the deck, and I would almost say Tops should be MD even without CB, but they shouldn't take away from the concept of the deck. Over time I hope to rebuild a Landstill deck and I would toy with the idea of including 2 CBs and 3 Tops, but the rest of the decklist can't be built AROUND them, they're a handy utility.

    I also understand your argument for when you need acceleration and SS is stuck in your hand being useless, but Predicts shouldn't replace Standstill for that reason. The deck should still have Brainstorm/Top/Jace/sometimes FoF to find answers, then once the board is under control again, drop Standstill, rinse, repeat.

    Also, have I been reading correctly that Landstill decks now run Horizon Canopy/Crubible? There's another draw engine.
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  13. #3973
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I played my first tourney with Landstill (with a suboptimal list) monday and went 4-3. Beating Bant Aggro, Bant CounterTop, Merfolk & Reanimate but losing to Merfolk, something UW Tempo-ish & the Mirror. I'm positive that if I was a better pilot and my deck was a bit better that I could have made top-8 (although I'd have probably faced ANT more, as they dominated the higher tables).
    I changed my list, and was looking for some advice about it. The dutch meta is alot of Goblins/Merfolk/ANT and the rest of the field differs. Top tables are dominated by ANT, low tables by merfolk. There's CounterTop, Bant Aggro, The Rock, LandStill, Tempo *****, Dredge, Reanimate, Zoo and more mixed in as well.
    The list I am currently testing:

    Lands: (23)
    4 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    2 Island
    2 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Wasteland

    Card Advantage & Quality: (11)
    4 Standstill
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Sensei Divining Top

    Counters: (9)
    4 Force of Will
    3 Counterspell
    2 Spell Snare

    Removal/Board-Control: (13)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Engineered Explosives
    2 Vindicate
    2 Humility
    2 Wrath of God

    Win Conditions: (4)
    3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    1 Decree of Justice

    Sideboard: (15)
    4 Engineered Plague (Merfolk/Goblin)
    4 Ethersworn Canonist (ANT)
    4 Leyline of the Void (Dredge)
    3 Diabolic Edict (Reanimate, Dreadstill etc.)


    Some points I'm not positive about:
    - Are wastelands good without crucible? I pretty much need UUWW(B) asap.. (I'd replace it with Dust Bowl/Tolaria West/Academy Ruins probably)
    - Standstill is often not that great due to vial and stuff. Is going back to 3 Standstill better? And should I replace it with a FoF to keep the blue count and the draw count up?
    - Should I run a FoF instead of a Top or something as well?
    - If I had a Moat would I run it over humility? Or might a 1/1 split be best? Or would you run a different number than 2 of these cards?
    - Is 3:2 Counterspell/Spell Snare the proper ratio in this?
    - Leyline is good against Dredge and maybe usable against Loam. These are hard matchups, but not that common. Is it worth 4 slots in the sb? Is hardly being able to hardcast it a reason not to play it?
    - Are 4 win-conditions enough/too much? And is 3 Elspeth/1 Decree good? I recently added the 1 Decree and I like it so far.
    - Would more spot-removal instead of mass removal be better (PtE) with alot of merfolk/goblin?
    - Would Extirpates (and maybe 1 Crucible) in the side be better than for example Edicts?

    Might edit in some more questions later ^^
    Last edited by JamieW89; 05-29-2010 at 02:31 PM.
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  14. #3974
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Theres no question that the redundancy in landstill has drifted away from folks Geoff. I would go so far as to say that alot of good pilots have dropped landstill as of late because they were sick of meta-gaming with players who have not in fact played the format or understand the logistics of the arch-type. Not everyone, but some.

  15. #3975
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by JamieW89 View Post
    - Are wastelands good without crucible? I pretty much need UUWW(B) asap..
    Wastelands are ALWAYS good, but I think running 1 Crubible MD wouldn't be a bad idea. It always works well with Wasteland/Factories.

    Maybe instead of 2 Humility you could split 1/1 with Moat, but that's a meta decision.

    I would drop 1 Elspeth and 1 EE for 2 PtE, but I'm a fan of 1cc spot-removal (and you have Vindicate). That still leaves you 4 mass removal and 3 win condition (which should be plenty).
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  16. #3976

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I love vindicates. Now that i got 1 Jace 2.0 + 1 Karakas to deal with iona, i think that i cut probably my wishes for 2 vindicates + 1 Stanstill.
    I hope to have enought blue cards to set on fow.

  17. #3977

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    How strong do you guys think spell snare is still? I run a 3/3 split between spell snare and counterspell but am thinking about cutting the spell snares going back to 4 counter spell and adding 2 FoF. I run 2 wrath, 3 EE, 2 humility, 4 StP, along with 2 Cunning wish, So i think my board control is pretty strong. How do you guys feel about spell snares lately? I'm starting to feel like I am more inclined to counter spells i normally wouldn't because they are cc2 and that is all spell snare can counter.

  18. #3978

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Burr View Post
    How strong do you guys think spell snare is still? I run a 3/3 split between spell snare and counterspell but am thinking about cutting the spell snares going back to 4 counter spell and adding 2 FoF. I run 2 wrath, 3 EE, 2 humility, 4 StP, along with 2 Cunning wish, So i think my board control is pretty strong. How do you guys feel about spell snares lately? I'm starting to feel like I am more inclined to counter spells i normally wouldn't because they are cc2 and that is all spell snare can counter.
    It's indeed strong. I run 3 copies. It's a good second turn (1st of yours) full counter. And in many matches could be determinant. It's not necesary to list up what it counters...
    Off course in a late game could be a worse topdeck than counterspell.

  19. #3979

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    It's indeed strong. I run 3 copies. It's a good second turn (1st of yours) full counter. And in many matches could be determinant. It's not necesary to list up what it counters...
    Off course in a late game could be a worse topdeck than counterspell.
    yeah its good on your opponents second turn when you're on the draw, but what can be such a threat that you can't handle with your board control? And of course, you always have force of will. I think 4 FoW and 4 Counterspell should be a good enough counter suite and am prolly going to go ahead and cut my 3 spell snare for +1 CS and +2 FoF. Spell snare can be weak late game while FoF shines mid and late game.

    Although can anyone comment if spell snare improves the merfolk/goblin matchup? I haven't played enough of these match ups to fully know.

  20. #3980
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Spell Snare can handle turn 2 Exhume against reanimator (even with 2 lands Snare is still Daze prooft), Turn 2/3 Standstill after the previous Vial (maybe I just have bad luck but this happens a lot against me), Chalice @1 and of course Cabal Ritual/ Infernal Tutor (I actually can't see a way to fight ANT game 1 with only 8 counters (even if ANT isn't a good matchup at all if you aren't running CB/Top).

    And yes Snare really helps against Merfolk, stopping Lords, Standstills and Silvergil Adepts (basicly their hole card advantage).
    I'm not quite surea about Goblins, it depends heavily on their build (i.e. how many Thorn of Amethyst they run in there boards and how many Warren Instigator in there main (running Spell Snare with only 4 Valid targets isn't that great if you have a shitload of removals).
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