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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #21
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    Re: Most Powerful win conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    your guess is 3cc is almost spot on, your guess at 1 and 2 are basically reversed from what they should be, and both are less important than you thought, as 4 and 5 are more important
    The cmc2 and cmc1 spot being reversed is actually done on purpose for two main reasons. First of all, you can always counter things with a converted mana cost of one easier than something with a converted mana cost of two because of Sensei's Divining Top so that you'd rather have more cmc2 things to find one when using that Top. The second reason to include more spells in the cmc2 slot is that you can ignore the spells that are in the cmc1 slot in most cases anyway: there's removal, there're cantrips, which you can ignore [the removal because you have control of the game and so will just eventually win, it doesn't matter why | the cantrips because you can just counter what they dig into], there's the occasional Dreadnought/Vial/Lackey/Whatever, but these are rather rare, come down before Balance or can be handled quite easily and efficiently otherwise (Engineered Explosives comes to mind). The real threats are found in the cmc2 slots, mainly because of Tarmogoyf (Dark Confidant, Survival of the Fittest, Life from the Loam, Infernal Tutor, Abeyance [to stop the CounterTop engine], Burning Wish etc.) and opposing permission.
    The 5spot was left out because that's basically only Force of Will and you can't be including other cmc5 cards which suck otherwise only to counter opposing Forces more frequently - especially since not every deck plays Force of Will (but every deck plays cmc1 and cmc2 spells).
    Also, I'd rather not dilute the consistency of hitting converted mana costs 1 to 3 to be able to eventually hit that 4 mana spell one deck casted: that's what your other permission is for: just focus on making Counterbalance effective against the most commonly played things and handle the rare things that slip through otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    What do you suggest in it's place as a more powerful strategy/control element? (In your own words "eventually countering each other spell with Counterbalance," I don't know about anyone else, but that seems to go a long way into "hindering your opponent from accomplishing their strategy").
    Humility, Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives (and Cunning Wish to a certain extent) are all I've ever needed for creature control.
    Counterspell, Force of Will are all I've ever needed for permission.
    What is there more to control than the board and the stack? Artifacts and Enchantments I'd guess... meh those are either creatures or irrelevant most of the time (Counterbalance) - if not, there's always Cunning Wish for a solution or Engineered Explosives.

    Now the permission part might seem a little on the low side, especially if compared to a build with Counterbalance but I think that this is largely due to a playstyle difference: I don't counter anything that I can handle otherwise and keep the Counters for the scary stuff.

    'Eventually countering every spell or the other' is actually not really going the control direction: if you can't be sure of what resolves and what not, you add an element of randomness to the game. Randomness = loss of control so that I'd rather have something that completely shuts the opponent down (Humility) or just win via card advantage (Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives, Standstill), as usually.

    Again, you might want to have a look at my list and maybe give it a try.
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  2. #22
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Here is the build I have been testing with. Based on my Meta, Black seems to be the color to splash. Stifle/Wasteland mana denial is still very strong, and worth including.

    1 Eternal Dragon

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterspell
    2 Decree of Justice
    2 Fact or Fiction
    4 Force of Will
    3 Stifle
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Wrath of God

    4 Standstill

    2 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Engineered Explosives

    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    4 Mishra's Factory
    2 Plains
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    4 Tundra
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Extirpate
    4 Engineered Plague
    4 What I can infer about the Meta before hand
    "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash

  3. #23
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    In which matchups does Meddling Mage come in? Storm based combo? Loam archetypes?

  4. #24
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    You basically got it on the money... it can also come in for the mirror, since you will want to remove both humility and wrath anyways... As for mirror, I mean other versions of landstill (name deed against bhww... etc).

    Not always advisable, but an option... he usually just comes in for combo decks, belcher, storm, breakfast (bridge from below), and rarely comes in for loam.

    He can be a real pain in some combo deck's sides sometimes.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  5. #25
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Mage also excels against decks with few threats. When combined with Extirpate you can lockout certain strategies.
    Tusk up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS

  6. #26
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I'm practicing with UWb CunningStill for some time now. I like the deck a lot, however I'm not used to playing control decks and many times I have problems getting into the late game. I'd like to ask you the general strategy in two situations:

    • Against red thresh, if they put me in a clock early in the game. Should I risk casting a Humility/WoG with 4 lands, and be countered by a Daze?
    • Against Goblins, Elves or Slivers, I've lost some games to a swarm of 1/1 (humility) creatures, before I could find WoG.


    I don't know if I'm just unlucky or I'm a victim of my lack of ability
    Thanks!

  7. #27
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by lebarion View Post
    • Against red thresh, if they put me in a clock early in the game. Should I risk casting a Humility/WoG with 4 lands, and be countered by a Daze?
    I generally try to bait out Daze in the first 3 turns to avoid the likelihood of them having it Turn 4. If you have a 5th land in hand, and haven't seen a Daze yet against Thresh I would be reluctant to push Humility. It is going to be game swinging if it resolves, if you can afford to wait a turn its probably the right call.

    Wrath of God is generally less of a concern if they counter it cause most likely they only have 2 Threats out anyway, you have X EE, X WoG, X Humility and 4 Factory for Geese, and an additional 4 Swords for Goyfs, so losing one of many creature answers to Daze isn't nearly as bad as losing a Humility. But if you really need to clear the board and haven't seen a Daze yet and can afford to wait the extra turn it can often be an ok call.

    Also there is always the option of cycling an early Decree turn 4 to buy you an extra turn/land drop. Block the biggest threat, slow the bleeding a bit, get a card deeper, then the following turn play Humility/WoG with an extra mana available.
    Quote Originally Posted by lebarion View Post
    • Against Goblins, Elves or Slivers, I've lost some games to a swarm of 1/1 (humility) creatures, before I could find WoG.
    Preboard you can often utilize EE or Swords to slow your opponents swarms down, EE@1 vs Elves, EE@2 vs Slivers, Goblins has a wider spread of casting costs, but if they have a couple at the same it can generate a bit of CA and buy some time to find a sweeper. Decree and Mishra's Factory are also as good as WoG in most cases. So I mean really you have 8+ cards that will answer swarms, and another 6-7 that will buy you time to get to them, plus Brainstorm to dig for them.

    Cunning Wish for Pulse of the Fields can also work if they are swinging with 3-5 guys it will set back the damage race quite a bit.

    Postboard, you have 6 Enchantments (3-4 Plague, 2-3 Humility) and resolving any 2-3 of them is essentially good game.
    TPDMC

  8. #28
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    My general problem with Landstill, as of late, has been that the Threshold MU is not as good as people say it. The problem is that all your solutions are more expensive than the cards they are answering, which, when coupled with the mana denial played by Thrash/Moonthresh, really hurts your ability to combat cards like Nimble Mongoose. Tarmogoyf still isn't scary, but with such a rediculously slow clock as Landstill has, Thresh can often just play the tempo game and come up ahead.
    For me, that says a few things about the directions of the meta:
    Expensive answers that aren't versatile will no longer be playable in a Thrash meta. Wrath of God has been a bad card for a while but will probably now actually be cut from lists.
    I really don't like cards like DoJ - It's vulnerable to every form of hate avaliable, is a huge mana sink, and just gets worse and worse with every new variation on Thresh that's released.
    Crucible, a card that previously wrecked Threshold, is very slow. It may still be playable, but it doesn't seem like it should be any more than 1 or 2 of at most.
    Wasteland is also not as good as it was. For me, Landstill is a deck that doesn't do much the early game, and then slow rolls with powerful answers and threats that can't be dealt with by decks that have a weak late game. However, by playing lots of duals/fetches/wastes you ensure that the game will stay in the early game. If I'm playing threshold, and a UWb Landstill player wastelands my Trop, I'm happy, because it will give my Goose another turn to smash for 3.

    Stability and consistancy in Landstill list are, to me, the most important aspect against the new forms of Threshold as they allow us to survive the tempo war long enough to utilize the bombs that make Landstill a powerful deck.

    Discuss.

  9. #29
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I haven't had any issues in the thrash MU, you just have to be conservative and aware of the board state... this is one of those MUs that I will have to stop the bleeding ASAP, as they can finish the deal with burn... the idea here is to stop the bleeding ASAP, stabilize, then use your draw/Cwishes to gain an advantage and ride that to victory... you do not have to win fast, just make sure they do not.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  10. #30
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I've found Thrash to be pretty manageable as well. The deck really doesn't run many threatening cards, and they get much worse if you make it to the mid-late game (read Stifle, Daze, Spell Snare). You can afford to aggressively control their guys in the early game cause really they don't have that many, FoWing a Goyf isn't awful if you don't have an EE or Swords ready for it, again once you make it to the mid game the scales tilt very heavily in your favor. Since the Thrash player is pretty much forced to dig for guys and burn, where you have much higher answer density than they do threat density.

    And while Wrath of God is very bad in the Thresh match up it is still very good in many others. It's not really fair to say a card is bad based against a deck running 8 guys and Daze, clearly a 4 mana 1 for 1 is bad, when they can return a land to counter it, but against Goblins and other agro a 4 mana 4 for 1 is huge.

    DoJ is vulnerable to what? Stifle? I don't see that as "every form of hate available". Even then if you are winning you can just counter the Stifle and still make a ton of guys. I guess Pithing Needle, but if my opponent wants to waste a Needle on DoJ rather than Engineered Explosives or Mishra's Factory, more power to them, I'd be pretty confident about that match. How is an instant speed win condition a mana sink? Compared to any thing that requires main phase mana, a creature or Hoofprints activations, there is no real commitment to DoJ, it's about as convenient a win condition as one can have.
    TPDMC

  11. #31
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Ive tried to adjust my UWb Landstill deck to a deck that runs counterbalance, moat, Etutor etc etc. I have come to the conclusion that it just isnt worth it. I like to run as few permanents that need to stay as i can.
    Ill post the list i am liking the most at the moment, hoping for some good comments.

    Lands (24)

    4 Underground Sea
    3 Tundra
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Acadamy Ruins
    1 Wasteland
    4 Mishra's Factory
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Plains

    2 Jace, Beleren
    4 Standstill
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    2 Cunning Wish
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Innocent Blood
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Nevinyrral's Disk
    2 Engineered Explosives
    1 Decree of Justice
    1 Haunting Echoes

    Sideboard:

    1 Fact or Fiction
    3 Extirpate
    3 Meddling Mage
    4 Engineered Plague
    1 Pulse of the fields
    1 Tsabo's Decree
    1 Dismantling Blow
    1 Diabolic Edict

  12. #32
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I do not understand The inclusion of Jace Beleren at all, you're list looks pretty decent, but why run Jace?

    I have a strong hatred towards the card (and I did test it, so don't give me that crap)... he is bad against both agro, and agro control... he is sorcery speed, which is also huge (in a bad way)... he is only guaranteed to draw you one card, and if you try to win through milling the opponent, they will gain plenty of cards to try and stop you from doing this... he can be needled as well...

    I say FoF is almost always better, as it gives you selection and cards now, and at instant speed (which is also huge everywhere).

    Cunning wish is better than both, but you do not need it as you are already running it. I have never been a real fan of haunting echoes in LS either, generally you want to have one of two options with your winconditions:

    1. it works under the still
    2. comes out before the still (i.e. goyf/grunt)...

    Decree of justice is huge here as it is both instant speed, can be played under stand still, and is a huge finisher with flexibility (can be used earlier in the game for different effect on the game state).

    I have always liked the disk+ruins combo though, I think it is hawt... try and fit in a tolaria west plz.




    EDIT:

    I have been testing a slight variation off of Der's original list (i.e. w/ 2 crucibles b4 3rd plains)... I cut an explosives and a crucible for enlightened tutors in the main (2 of them)... I cannot say how many times I just tutor up humility and win, or tutor EOT for standstill after countering something...

    The REB in the board hasn't been treating me well (don't have much red here), so I put it back as the fourth plague...

    The hoser density has improved for the deck durrastically because of these minor changes... it may also open up a few options (like a slight sideboard second tool box outside of the wish)...

    I may add a needle or two in the board as well for the mirror (board out stuff like wrath et all).. With needle, extirpate, and the option of mage, the mirror should be easy to handle after boarding.

    I may also drop wasteland, as it hasn't been useful at all recently, although I am also fearful that when I do I will see a deck with stronghold (which would be a bitch).
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  13. #33
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by thefreakaccident View Post
    I may also drop wasteland, as it hasn't been useful at all recently, although I am also fearful that when I do I will see a deck with stronghold (which would be a bitch).
    I can't see why if you're running Tolaria West you wouldn't run the single Wasteland. Granted it's not incredible alot of the time, but since you just mentioned playing against the mirror, its pretty strong versus opposing Factories, Nantuko Monasteries, and Academy Ruins. Not to mention that it opens you up to having options like Wasteland -> Trop + Cunning Wish -> Extirpate, GG Thresh, etc. Additionally with Crucible it gives you the ability to Wastelock. I mean each of these situations probably wont come up that frequently, but at the cost of one card slot it's hard to argue that Wasteland doesn't carry it's weight.
    TPDMC

  14. #34

    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I only used the Tolaria West to search a Wasteland one-two times, most I take a EE or Academy Ruins if i have EE already or Factory.

  15. #35
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I've been playing all kinds of LS lists and tinkering with plenty stuff. Here is the list that I think is one of the most consistent ones out there:

    Draw:
    4 Standstill
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    ---- nice with hoofprints (+ supported by 9 artifacts)
    4 Brainstorm-------------- s.a.
    1 Jace Beleren------------ s.a., he truely is amazing in most MUs

    Counter Suite:
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell


    Creature Hate:
    3 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    1 Diabolic Edict ---------- it's alright - more of a meta slot though, I guess
    1 Vedalken Shackles

    More Artifacts:
    3 Sensei's Divining Top -- this card is definitively underplayed - even without CB it's amazing - test it! (I might be adding another fetchland for top)
    Also: It's superb with Hoofprints.
    3 Engineered Explosives
    2 Crucible of Worlds


    Kill Options beyond Factory:
    2 Hoofprints of the Stag ----------------the deck seems like it was built around HP - every single card that HP benefits from ,is strong enough on its own, however.
    (Shackles belongs here, too - sort of)

    Land:
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Tundra
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Plains
    3 Wasteland
    4 M. Factory
    1 Academy Ruins
    --Shackles (which is gamebreaking especially in the mirror match), EE, Crucible, and even S. Top are worthy targets.
    ---

    Merely 23 might appear land light, I've found however that it's the perfect number for this build. Only 3 4cmc spells (no decree, humility, Fact/Fiction etc..) and 2 Crucibles, as well as 3 basics makes the mana supply sufficiently reliable.

    SB:
    4 Extirpate
    4 E. Plague
    3 Counterbalance
    2 BEB
    2 Open slots

    --------------------------------

    Thoughts, suggestions?

  16. #36
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by from Cairo View Post
    I've found Thrash to be pretty manageable as well. The deck really doesn't run many threatening cards, and they get much worse if you make it to the mid-late game (read Stifle, Daze, Spell Snare). You can afford to aggressively control their guys in the early game cause really they don't have that many, FoWing a Goyf isn't awful if you don't have an EE or Swords ready for it, again once you make it to the mid game the scales tilt very heavily in your favor. Since the Thrash player is pretty much forced to dig for guys and burn, where you have much higher answer density than they do threat density.

    And while Wrath of God is very bad in the Thresh match up it is still very good in many others. It's not really fair to say a card is bad based against a deck running 8 guys and Daze, clearly a 4 mana 1 for 1 is bad, when they can return a land to counter it, but against Goblins and other agro a 4 mana 4 for 1 is huge.

    DoJ is vulnerable to what? Stifle? I don't see that as "every form of hate available". Even then if you are winning you can just counter the Stifle and still make a ton of guys. I guess Pithing Needle, but if my opponent wants to waste a Needle on DoJ rather than Engineered Explosives or Mishra's Factory, more power to them, I'd be pretty confident about that match. How is an instant speed win condition a mana sink? Compared to any thing that requires main phase mana, a creature or Hoofprints activations, there is no real commitment to DoJ, it's about as convenient a win condition as one can have.
    Stifle, EE, Clasm, Fire/Ice, Deed, WoG, etc.

    Wrath of God is clearly bad in the THRESH match up, bad in the Control MU, and bad in the Goblins MU (because of Mana Denial, and it doesn't stop their draw engine). Don't tell me it isn't bad.

    Hoofprints is stronger than DoJ because it if they don't answer IT, not just the token it makes, they'll die eventually. DoJ tokens are incredible vulnerable.

  17. #37
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mental View Post
    Stifle, EE, Clasm, Fire/Ice, Deed, WoG, etc.
    ...
    Tabernacle effects, Powder Keg, Trickbind, Sulfur Elemental, the list goes on
    -
    You still can't deny it's superb when paired with Humility plus other than Hoofprints, you can play it under Standstill.
    Moreover, often times it is gamebreaking in the mirror.
    ---
    That said, I still prefer Hoofprints as a kill condition - the thing is though, you can't just randomly exchange DoJ and HP in a common LS deck - you have to make (at least) some minor commitments to embed HP properly (i.e. Thirst 4 Knowledge, Jace and the likes).
    BTW...
    The list that I posted above won me a tourney today (well #1 split):

    The 2 open SB slots were filled by Disenchants cause I figured there'd be some Dragon Stompy, Geddon Stax & Survival running around.

    G1: "White Stax" - I won cause he didn't see any wastelands G1/G3
    G2: "Dragon Stompy" - Disenchant & BEB win me G2/G3
    G3: "Ichorid" I win due to my opponent being inexperienced
    G4: "Survival" G1-I lose to Tarmogoys, G2 Extirpate on squee and Genesis make it a mediochre Aggro deck, G3 We take too long and Draw.

    I seriously won every game on the back of HP. There were very few games that I wasn't able to activate it twice - in some games it went like:
    eot BS, Draw, activate...eot Thirst 4 K., Draw activate..

  18. #38
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mental View Post
    Stifle, EE, Clasm, Fire/Ice, Deed, WoG, etc.

    Hoofprints is stronger than DoJ because it if they don't answer IT, not just the token it makes, they'll die eventually. DoJ tokens are incredible vulnerable.
    The card is a secondary win condition and is a great form of card advantage, especially in the late game.

    You play counter-answers to all those cards too, I mean just about any win condition can be dealt with, Hoofprints can be EE'd or Deeded too, or Counterspelled or Force of Willed or Counterbalanced or Pithing Needled. Half of those answers to DoJ that you list are Sorcery speed anyways, Fire/Ice only deals with 2 guys and its still at the cost of a card, so in those cases you're still drawing the extra card and swinging for a bunch of damage. Like EOT DoJ for 6 guys, cantrip, swing 6, next turn they Wrath of God, so be it, you just got 6 damage and a card out of a Decree that they spent a Wrath or Clasm on. Even if they do answer one of your cycles, if its with anything other than Stifle you're still gaining card advantage.

    DoJ has as good of synergy with Humility as one could ask for. Spending 3 turns and 3 main phase mana for a 1/1 with no abilities seems awful, spending 7+ mana on 4+ 1/1s with no abilities at a random eot, and getting to draw a card seems really good.

    If I were running Moat instead of Humility, clearly I would see Hoofprints as stronger for similar reasons; the 1/1s wouldn't do shit with a Moat in play, and the 4/4 fliers would be awesome.

    Clearly in the context of different lists the cards vary in power level, but both are strong, Decree has proven its worth in Landstill for a long time to discount it as being obsolete is inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mental View Post
    Wrath of God is clearly bad in the THRESH match up, bad in the Control MU, and bad in the Goblins MU (because of Mana Denial, and it doesn't stop their draw engine). Don't tell me it isn't bad.
    It isn't bad. Its good against agro, its bad against control and combo and its sub par against agro control. But there isn't really a replacement for it in UW for sweepers, so I don't really see an argument for what would replace it and serve a similar function. If there was a Pernicious Deed for 1UW, then I would certainly be trying it in the Wrath of God slots, but there isn't, for dealing with multiple guys that make their way onto the board there's WoG and EE, both of which I feel hold their own.
    TPDMC

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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by from Cairo View Post
    The card is a secondary win condition and is a great form of card advantage, especially in the late game.

    You play counter-answers to all those cards too, I mean just about any win condition can be dealt with, Hoofprints can be EE'd or Deeded too, or Counterspelled or Force of Willed or Counterbalanced or Pithing Needled. Half of those answers to DoJ that you list are Sorcery speed anyways, Fire/Ice only deals with 2 guys and its still at the cost of a card, so in those cases you're still drawing the extra card and swinging for a bunch of damage. Like EOT DoJ for 6 guys, cantrip, swing 6, next turn they Wrath of God, so be it, you just got 6 damage and a card out of a Decree that they spent a Wrath or Clasm on. Even if they do answer one of your cycles, if its with anything other than Stifle you're still gaining card advantage.

    DoJ has as good of synergy with Humility as one could ask for. Spending 3 turns and 3 main phase mana for a 1/1 with no abilities seems awful, spending 7+ mana on 4+ 1/1s with no abilities at a random eot, and getting to draw a card seems really good.

    If I were running Moat instead of Humility, clearly I would see Hoofprints as stronger for similar reasons; the 1/1s wouldn't do shit with a Moat in play, and the 4/4 fliers would be awesome.

    Clearly in the context of different lists the cards vary in power level, but both are strong, Decree has proven its worth in Landstill for a long time to discount it as being obsolete is inaccurate.


    It isn't bad. Its good against agro, its bad against control and combo and its sub par against agro control. But there isn't really a replacement for it in UW for sweepers, so I don't really see an argument for what would replace it and serve a similar function. If there was a Pernicious Deed for 1UW, then I would certainly be trying it in the Wrath of God slots, but there isn't, for dealing with multiple guys that make their way onto the board there's WoG and EE, both of which I feel hold their own.
    If you have 9 mana available, you already win the game. So Decree is just one of the many ways you can pull that off, and because it has no early game function, it's one of the less useful ones.

    Wrath IS bad against non-jank aggro, and it it's bad against everything else. A smart Goblins player will NEVER overextended into WoG, so at most WoG will buy you 2-3 turns. What you need to deal with Goblins is Humility, Counterspells, GOYF, and Stifle. Wrath is too expensive for a Pyroclasm.

  20. #40
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Whatever there is no point in this continuing. It's not constructive in the least.

    In the example I was giving I was talking about it as a win condition, so yes when you are in control and winning the game. It can also be a 4-5 mana Fog+Cantrip, under a Humility it can be a Wrath + Cantrip, etc. It's not good before you reach 4 land... it gets exponentially better as the game goes on, Landstill is a late game deck, what is there to further discuss? Hoofprints isn't exactly an early game all star either, if you tap out to drop it turn two it gets online earliest turn 4 as well, if you invest a Brainstorm in powering it up, or it naturally gets online turn 5 at which point you are probably either establishing dominance or losing.

    In my experience Wrath has been a huge boost to gaining control of Goblins and other agro preboard. Being able to reset the board turn 4-5 setting them back 3-4 cards to your 1, puts you in a better position to start establishing dominance.

    Apparently your experience has been different, I guess all I can offer is that we agree to disagree.
    TPDMC

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