It has served his purpose, to stabilize the manabase as the 5th Tundra, pretty well so far. You don't need to rely on it in order to win and as a one of you won't allways draw it ( I usually don't count how often I get it out, only if it really matters (i.e. if my opponent gets Choke online)).
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
My bad.Originally Posted by Morbid-
He answered your question some post above...
@Felidae: i hope my calculations aren't wrong but did you post a 61 cards list??
Last edited by GoldenCid; 08-29-2010 at 08:57 PM.
Yep, I did (61 cards have worked fine for me, so far).
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
I dropped dragon altogether YES!!!! something that shouldve been done long time ago, ill post my list later UWx IS NOT DEAD!!!! ^_^
This is a mistake. Dragon is obscenely good right now. Its tremendous against stifle/wasteland plan, excellent in the control mirror, its an additional threat in the late game, it gives landstill good card advantage and card quality versus many other choices. You would rather run dragon then a 24th land, and thats the perfect slot 23+dragon.
I couldn't disagree more. I have no idea why you guys run the dragon at all. The only justification for him seems to be that he gets you your 3rd land. Can you not just keep better hands??
Any of his late game qualities are just irrelevant because any time you are able to just pay 5 mana on your upkeep and be completely fine, the game is basically over anyways. Your deck is full of 4cc bombs and such, so as soon as I hit 4 mana, I'm slamming down those cards until my opponent or I die. At no point do I ever see myself having the desire to cast a dragon for infinite mana.
I would rather have a 24th land for sure, or even just a roll of toilet paper over Eternal Dragon. The land seems almost strictly better to me because at least then you don;t have to pay 2 for it.
crucible and all non-basics ftw! if theyre gonna manascrew you might as well go full power, if ugb landstill can do it then so can we!
Dragon provides so many good things. Under a Standstill it can functions as card advantage, hell it can function as card atvantage at any time, as long as you have control over the board or play against other sorts of control decks. It also works pretty fine as a fetchland that gives you your splashed colour at any time or your basic Plains if you need them (common szenario: you tap 2 non Basics under a Magus of the Moon to get Plains -> Swords -> win).
Especially in the control mirror, where mana is the key to victory, Dragon can show it's true potential (combined with cards like Decree to unleash there power). You could argue that Crucible fulfills the same roll, but there are to many answers for this card, befor it hits the field (i.e. counters) and after it hits the field (i.e. Grip) to only rely on this card.
Also you shouldn't underestimated a 2-4 turn clock in the late game, as the usual opponent tends to move cards like Path or Sword out of the Deck.
I'd agree with Mossivo to run Dragon as the 24th land at any time, as long as the meta is filled with any sort of non basic hate.
Also you can't compare UBg Landstill with UWx, as they got a lower curve (onyl 4 cards with cc4) plus the ability to splash Loam inside. And usually they run 3 Basics (2 Islands and 1 Swamp) in order to play around cards like Magus of the Moon, Back to Basics or Wasteland.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Crucible > Dragon from my experience. Dragon is too slow, its first use is nice, but it still takes 2 colorless, which means that if you are searching it out during your turn at sorcery speed to get the landdrop, you have untapped mana against your opponent. He's really good at consistently hitting 3 mana though, which is critical, but that can be fixed by playing a more decent manabase to hit 3 lands, and when you hit 3 lands, you can cast crucible.
In landstill I usually don't have problems hitting 3 lands, 4 lands is the problem with wastelands/stifles. I don't hit 3 lands if I'm paired up with Eva and other Sinkhole/Vindicate.dec. Dragon would not have helped in those matchups anyway since you only use him once. Crucible comes down, STAYS in play, and just generates way more card advantage for no additional costs. You reusing lands in your yard is as good as pseudoally 'drawing' more cards if you drew non land cards from your library. If you reuse fetches, that's basically using eternal dragon every turn (but better, not just plains).
Also, I agree with the fact that games where I end up returning dragon, are games where:
1) I am winning since spending 5 mana on turn 6/7 (leave mana out for counterspell/stp) and I want to beat with Dragon later
2) I am desperate for a creature and I'm willing to pay 12 mana for a recurring 5/5 that still dies to Zoo's Path. There's a likelyhood that casting a 7cc 5/5 flyer on turn 7 (if you cast it later, that's cool, but that means that you're doing pretty fine since it's that late game, Landstill usually has trouble early game) but casting a 7cc 5/5 flyer on turn 7 means that you don't have protection from untapped lands.
All in all, my testing shows that Crucible is much faster, doesn't require additional costs to maintain land drops, and still brings in your win-conditions: factories and wastelock.
I actually would not mind playing edragon, but I would always play crucibles first before edragon. And actually my current list involves 2 Crucible and 1 Edragon. Edragon's slot does not replace crucible, but he serves the only purpose he is serving:
1) additional win-con if I needed it. Against control, he's still not great cause most control's player's removal of choice is StP.
2) hitting 3 mana more consistently (if I draw him heh).
Dragon searches with instant-speed. The only scenario where you have to use it in your turn ist when you are stuck on 2 lands. In this situation Crucible wouldn't be better.
I often recurr Dragon for more lands, but if you don't want to do this Dragon becomes worse. It's imo a matter of playstyle.
This.Crucible > Dragon from my experience. Dragon is too slow, its first use is nice, but it still takes 2 colorless, which means that if you are searching it out during your turn at sorcery speed to get the landdrop, you have untapped mana against your opponent. He's really good at consistently hitting 3 mana though, which is critical, but that can be fixed by playing a more decent manabase to hit 3 lands, and when you hit 3 lands, you can cast crucible.
In landstill I usually don't have problems hitting 3 lands, 4 lands is the problem with wastelands/stifles. I don't hit 3 lands if I'm paired up with Eva and other Sinkhole/Vindicate.dec. Dragon would not have helped in those matchups anyway since you only use him once. Crucible comes down, STAYS in play, and just generates way more card advantage for no additional costs. You reusing lands in your yard is as good as pseudoally 'drawing' more cards if you drew non land cards from your library. If you reuse fetches, that's basically using eternal dragon every turn (but better, not just plains).
Also, I agree with the fact that games where I end up returning dragon, are games where:
1) I am winning since spending 5 mana on turn 6/7 (leave mana out for counterspell/stp) and I want to beat with Dragon later
2) I am desperate for a creature and I'm willing to pay 12 mana for a recurring 5/5 that still dies to Zoo's Path. There's a likelyhood that casting a 7cc 5/5 flyer on turn 7 (if you cast it later, that's cool, but that means that you're doing pretty fine since it's that late game, Landstill usually has trouble early game) but casting a 7cc 5/5 flyer on turn 7 means that you don't have protection from untapped lands.
All in all, my testing shows that Crucible is much faster, doesn't require additional costs to maintain land drops, and still brings in your win-conditions: factories and wastelock.
I actually would not mind playing edragon, but I would always play crucibles first before edragon. And actually my current list involves 2 Crucible and 1 Edragon. Edragon's slot does not replace crucible, but he serves the only purpose he is serving:
1) additional win-con if I needed it. Against control, he's still not great cause most control's player's removal of choice is StP.
2) hitting 3 mana more consistently (if I draw him heh).
4 brainstorm
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 crucible
1 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's factory
2 path to exile
4 polluted delta
1 scrubland
2 spell snare
4 standstill
4 swords to plowshare
4 tundra
3 U. Sea
4 Vindicate
3 Wasteland
3 Wrath of god
This is something ive been toying around with
I'm not saying run no COW. I run cow and dragon in my model. But I wouldn't NOT play dragon. It fights through too much, serves as a win condition, completely sets the standard for the control mirrors IE CA, and fills the 24th land slot. I understand if you don't like it; but you can't argue that Dragon isn't great.
New elspeth was spoiled recently.
Elspeth ~~~ 3ww
Planeswalker - Elspeth (Mythic)
+2: Gain 1 life per creature you control
-2: Put 3 1/1 soldiers into play
-5: Destroy all other permenants other than lands and Tokens.
4
3 tokens is insane, Disk is nothing to scoff at.
I think the new Elspeth could see play. Her ultimate is active the turn after she's played and she keeps your factories alive. Then she pumps out tokens to quicken the clock. She seems pretty decent, maybe a bit slow, but decent.
This is actually the point: no one said that Dragon is better then Crucible or that you should replace your Crucibles with Dragon. They both serv different abilitys and can't really be compared. However running both of them seems to be fine at the moment.
I don't really like the new Elspeth for a couple of reasons:
-cc5
-not a decent + ability
even if the ultimate seems awesome (somehow) I just can help but see the szenario in my head where she provides 3 Tokens and then dies miserable against a Bolt.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Played an 84 ppl tournament and finished 6th. Played eternal dragon, one of the worst slots of the deck. Here's the list, I'll update the post with considerations and report soon :)
//Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau (MVP!)
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
//Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Vendilion Clique
//Spell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Barinstorm
2 Ponder
3 Standstill
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles (MVP!)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dismantling Blow
Sideboard:
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Ajani Vengeant (MVP!)
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
So I went to bed very late because I had to print like 5 versions of landstill to study for the morning after. I came to the tournament with ugr faeries thinking of a more aggrocontrol meta, then did some scouting and saw gobbos gobbos zoo aggro, black based decks, very few cb decks (1 or 2 indeed)... and decided that landstill was the way to go. I piled the cards of ugr fearies and tried to mantain a slim average cc and some combination of the decks. I left spellstutter sprites and vendilion cliques in and pulled out the tarmogoyfs, managed to borrow 3 jaces and I was surprised to see how I could fit all those cards into my maindeck. Then I counted lands: 21. Damn! I must re-do the math. Then comes my teammate and says the 3 jace I borrowed had already been borowed by him, so I had to borrow another couple of them, I found only 2, and the missing 3rd costed me more than one game. Then I pulled out stutters for paths but left in the 2 shackles, as they are mvp against really any kind of deck that does not have progenitus or emrakul. I saw no lands and 3 enchantress (lol, first turn enchantress mirror! yeah!), I wanted to be prepared against aggro and jace control and random enchantress, so I bought another foil promo ajani vengeant and stuck it in the sb. Wow, that guy is insane! I then decided to substitute the 3rd volcanic with a singleton plateau, and wanted to give a try to eternal dragon, since I expected lots of land destruction and didn't want to supporto a 4cc manabase to have grip in the sb. Turned out it was the wrong choice, but anyway.
R1. Punishing Zoo
G1: very close game, he tries to burn me out quickly, i have to counter a couple of swords on my tokens to prevent him from getting punishing fire back from his grave, then comes vedalken shackles to steal his dudes, and jace to prevent him topdecking grove of the burnwillows. I end the game in aggro mode at 4 life.
G2: i side in ajani vengeant and kithcen finks, good if he doesn't see punishing fire or has R open. He misses a land drop and I counter sylvan library, sword the next creature he plays, cast jace with fow backup which gets double rebbed, then cast ajani vengeant to tap his lands and the second jace to control his topdecks. The game goes one a little longer, he tries to kill ajani with creatures but I have vedalken shackles and managed to cast a KF when he has no R available and swording the lavamancer, giving me a turn to charge jace ultimate. I see gaddock on top and he has no cards in hand. He concedes.
R2: 4cc countertop control feat. Jace
G1: game loss for not having listed 3 relic in the sb. Damn!
G2: i am angry with myself, kept a bad hand and lost horribly.
Interlude: my younger teammate says: "good, if you lose one you'll encounter many tier1 and tier2, which you are prepared to win"!
R3: UW tempo
G1: Tier? I start and he opens with wayfarer. Bad news. At low lands, I cast vedalken shackles to which he will dies afterwards. He tries to cheat every activation of wayfarer, putting the land into play and not in hand. He forgets to mantain jotun but goes aggro mode anyway and brought me to 1 life. I then stabilize the board with double shackles and win via jace.
G3: I think I side kitchen finks and don't know what else, maybe nothing. He obviously sides out swords and i kept an aggressive hand with double finks EE shackles basic fetch brainstorm, open with EE@1 which prevents him for playing anything except for wayfarer, but i heard basics >>> wasteland. I see anothe finks on ponder but decided to shuffle and topdeck a good land. I then cast the 2 finks and steal wayfarer with shackles, beating him down for 6-7 a turn. He gasps and charged vial @2 after a trickbind on EE@1, but i have EE@2 with fow backup and concedes. Some more cheating on this game.
R4: BR champagne aggro
G1: wow, another tier lol!. I kept@5 with mishra and he sees 3 wastes in 5 turns. He kills me with this:
[img]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=118917&type=card[/]
G2: out the standstill, he has bloodghast. I brainstorm and see volcanic volcanic plateau. The comes a wasteland on volcanic and I bless the monoplateau. I cast ajani vengeant and ta his lands, then cast vedalken shackles and win the game, though in the meanwhile my forces and brainstorm had been extirpated too.
G3: This game is similare to the second, except he sees dystopia when ajani was @8 :( and i have no pitch for force (brainstorm and counterspell extirpated) I cast elspeth with token, he kills my token and elspeth too. Too bad he is at 5 life because of my shackles, he filled the board with that slivers, the ghast i robbed, and tombstalker now. I have swords in hand or i have to draw an island. I don't draw and island, pass and sword the big guy, he doesn't attack because of shackles, I steal the sliver and attack for 10 with the full set o mishra and his sliver through bloodghast.
R5: The Gate
G1: lol @ my teammate. Here the deck shines. Knowing his deck, I keep a hand with many lands, a force a sword and a standstill. He goes for tourach and hit swords and land, I cast standstill and draw standstill to his spell (cabal). He cast a creatures sacks to cabal I brainstorm in response, to let him think i put fow on top. Ha names path but i have force, and eat his 6/6 demon. I cast another standstill, which he breaks due to double mishra, I think shackles comes down and elspeth too, because I see I swing for 9 and end the game in 3 turns.
G2: I side in ajani vengeant again, really broken! I had t2 standstill hand he has t3 wasta + extirpate on mishra (i had anoher 2 mishra in hand, 1 on top). I chain another standstill and sword his bob, counter the next threat, resolve ajani and tapping his lands, he cabal to name jace but don't find it, i ponder, shuffled and topdecked jace. Cast it. He names elspeth but don't find any, i fetched to shuffle after a brainstorm, I though about having the fantastic trio online, and topdeck elspeth. Shackles was already there, so maybe it's the time to concede.
R6: Excalibur?
G1&2 I beat the living hell out of him.
R7: Goblin
G1&2 We play friendly to draw 1-1 and rise the rating, I don't remember much about the games, except a beer was involved... :D
--------
I'm in as 4th I think, top8 was 2 dredge (3 at the tournament), 1 bant survival, 1 jace landeed, 1 Uwr landstll, 1 goblin, 1 4cc countertop, and don't know about the 8th. The deck draws poorly, I maybe played poorly, and got hit by a counterbalance in both games, which stalls me out of the game along with jace. I missd the 3rd jace here and i missed green for grip too.
Anyway:
-Next time, 4cc manabase. I don't give a shit about nonbasics denial, with 5 basics I feel more then enough confidant. I'll cut that dragon and get back the tropical.
-2 vendilion clique would also have been very nice, but slots are tight. however, it's too good not to run in 2 copies agains any sort of control deck, eating counterspell in place of jace. Thanks joel!
-many times i sided out landstill, but in many other Mu's i just wanted the full set (speedstill mentality, I think).
-dismantling blow was just horrible. Krosan grip is needed
-3rd jace is mandatory. It wins even against aggressive decks.
-ponder was good all day long. Surely, top would've been better in the late game, but I already said it's the early game that scares me.
Last edited by gustha; 09-06-2010 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Added minireport
I like the new elspeth cause the bolt argument can be used for so many other plainswalkers jace for example, the only problem will be the 5 mana casting cost. 4 is like the magic number in legacy, unless you can cheat a card into play. The ultimate is pretty sweet though, gets rid of annoying jaces too. the 3 tokens you make with -2 might just be enough to rock some people under a good standstill. Then again the +3+3 flying for the old elspeth is a deal breaker for me, just love it, keeping weenies to block and flying a fat factory into their lifepts. New elspeth> old elspeth though if you put them against each other under a standstill. And new elspeth> new jace late game. i dont know
the new elspeth is nuts for control mirrors as well. clearly dodging counterbalance, and blowing up opposing plainswalkers; all while being sick with its -3 ability.
Force of will would like to have a word with you.
So your saying that counterbalance consistently answers 5 drops? Or are you just being a prick?
The bottom line is the new elspeth is great; better then I initially thought even after discussing it with shake. Given the correct scenario I think we're all in for some fun testing.
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