why r u running telemin performance in the board? It's terrible.Originally Posted by JamieW89
I tried to keep my nose out of this but there's too much self defending in here. This is a good deck in the venge-survival meta. If I were playing this deck, I would play six 4 cc TOPS. That would be 2 humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth. WOGs are very very slow nowadays. They never come down when it matters from my experience. Manadrain and all the people splashing red for firespout are correct. You want your curve to be more spread out. After board, the REBs will win you the blue mirror as well. Also, no black for extirpate postboard is fine. Just deal with survival and plow/path venges and you are golden. I hate canonist in landstill. I much prefer meddling mage. Mage is not as good vs storm, but you should have a fair MU against storm anyway and its not THAT bad of a MU, meddling mage can name survival and thats the most important point today.
Because it wins the mirror (and TES if they play no creatures).
I also board it in against show & tell.
IRT ivan:
Yeah, I think I want to add red for the FSpouts. I don't like the REB's though, I feel like my singleton Telemin Performance gives me a nice I WIN button in the mirror and I prefer plagues for the goblins & merfolk as I'm splashing black for Extirpate and EE@4 anyways.
My list would be about:
Maindeck: 60
Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
Removal & Board-Control: 13
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Path to Exile
2x Humility
2x Firespout
Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
Win-Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands: 24
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Academy Ruins
Sideboard: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
1x Firespout
1x Telemin Performance
PS: Are there any spoiler/hide tags on these forums? Would be nice to put the decklist in spoiler tags so they don't take so much space.
Jamie, that is a similar list to my UWR Landstill, except I run Wastelands and Stifles for mana disruption which opens me back up for mana disruption. What do you think of the following?
Manabase:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Islands
1 Academy Ruins
Card Advantage/Quality:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
Spot Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
Counters:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle or Spell Pierce (undecided)
Sweepers/Board wipes:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Firespout
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
Wincons:
2 Elspeth
2 Jace TMS
Sideboard:
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mindbreak Trap
I'm switching to this build, coming from UWBG landstill.
One thing i notice is the lack of ''solid'' mass removal other than EE (wich is not so ''mass'').
Is WoG really SO slow ? i mean, firespout is great, but can't kill goyf and blah blah...(you already know what i mean)
I tried 3 spout maindeck, but i'm feeling it too narrow most of the times.
Also, i notice that most of you play only 3x artifact haters in sb. Personally i would never go under 4 (either extirpate or Tormod's or relic) what do you think?
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
it just depends on your flavor, and what you feel is strong for your meta. go with redundancy and then expand your horizon's.
This. As consistent and strong as you can build the deck, at the end of the day, if you don't know the metagame (or have a reasonable gauge on what others are playing), you're going to have a hard time winning. Kiblast, people who splash red generally do so because Tribal/Zoo/VV Sur is a big part of their metagame, and red gives you Firespout and REBs. Firespout DOES suck against Bant, Dreadstill, CB, Tarmogoyf.dec, etc. And it's even worse when you draw multiples of them with no targets. But this is just a risk of playing Firespout and if your meta lacks fast-aggro decks, Humility/WoG are probably better choices. If u-control (other LS, CB, etc.) is big in your meta or grave-decks are big, splash black. Vindicate, Extirpate, Planar Void, and Duress are all excellent cards for slower matchups.
And depending on what your MD choices are, you don't necessarily need 4 slots in the SB for gy-hate. If you run 3+ EE, Vindicates, 2+ Sweepers, you can generally get away with 3, either Extirpate or Planar Void. Barring straight nut-draws, Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as people make it out to be.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
This deck is really reminiscent of what I used to play before I stumbled upon the magnificence that is Isochron Scepter.
Regarding your manabase, there 100% should be 4 flooded strands and 2 other fetches, instead of the 3/3 split you currently have in your fetchlands. Flooded strand will get you every colored land in your deck, whereas the two fetches you have in there have to exclude one of your basics. This isn't a huge hole in your deck though, just a tiny fixable point. Instead of playing 2 Islands, I run 1 Island, I Plains, and 1 Tolaria West in my UWR Isochron Scepter build and have NEVER regretted it. The Tolaria West is SO good in a variety of circumstances like fetching EEs, Wastelands, Factories, and is a Thoughtseize proof Tormod's Crypt post board if you run them like I do.
Hope that helps.
Also, I'm glad to see all the renewed discussion in this thread. Keep it coming all.
Played UWr Landstill to a 5-0 record in a local tournament winning a BB Badlands.
2-0 Elf Survival
2-1 UB Merfolk
2-0 Dark Horizons
2-0 Zoo
2-0 UBG Tempo Threshold
The deck is amazing and very strong in the current metagame. With 4 Spell Snare and Humility Vengevine matchups are favorable for Landstill. The red splash is strong for giving you Lightning Helix and Pyroblast from the board, which makes Merfolk slightly positive as well.
My list was pretty standard with 4 Spell snare, 2 Decree, 1 Elspeth, 1 Humility, 24 Lands and a pretty good sideboard. All credits for it go to Marius Hausmann (Wasteland)
I agree. If you don't know your meta, then you shouldn't be playing Landstill; as it's primarily a Metagame deck. You don't take landstill into unknown metas and expect to have good results consistently, as you don't know what to expect. This is why redundant decks have such great success across the board. This always seems to follow suit with combo and aggressive decks, which in short terms means the following: If you are running landstill in a predicted aggresive meta (IE mefolk, goblins, cat zoo etc.) then firespout is quite obviously going to be a more acceptable approach. However most Legacy metagames with 15 plus players are starting to develope a wide aray of archtypes. this is why fundamentally Landstill shouldn't run limited removal, or removal that is swingy 50 percent of the time. Landstill deals with certainties; not maybes.This. As consistent and strong as you can build the deck, at the end of the day, if you don't know the metagame (or have a reasonable gauge on what others are playing), you're going to have a hard time winning.
I agree that these cards can be useful post board.Kiblast, people who splash red generally do so because Tribal/Zoo/VV Sur is a big part of their metagame, and red gives you Firespout and REBs.
Draener once mentioned to me that if you both side out the same number of cards, and your matchup is really mediocre to bad; how does your matchup improve? Now there are exceptions to this rule of thumb obviously, but this is why more universal cards are just better. Sure you side in your blasts, your firespouts, and different forms of board control; but are you really prepared for an opponent who sides in red blasts and choke? or Teeg for CB lock? In my experience i'd rather 1. Play better cards or 2. Play a more aggressive deck.
I'm not going to nitpick specific card choices in regards to a controllish metagame. Other then perhaps Jupiter (and I dont even know if thats still flooded with Landstill) I don't know of many metas that a flooded with Control decks. Almost every metagame ive played in for the last year and a half is pretty mid-range/ aggresive.Firespout DOES suck against Bant, Dreadstill, CB, Tarmogoyf.dec, etc. And it's even worse when you draw multiples of them with no targets. But this is just a risk of playing Firespout and if your meta lacks fast-aggro decks, Humility/WoG are probably better choices. If u-control (other LS, CB, etc.) is big in your meta or grave-decks are big, splash black. Vindicate, Extirpate, Planar Void, and Duress are all excellent cards for slower matchups.
It depends on game-plan mostly. A strong dredge player will roll landstill pretty consistently. It's very difficult to fight a deck that doesn't want to be interacted with, and for a deck with almost no clock and no creatures, thats very easy for dredge to assume its combo plan. Granted if you see the hate you see it, but don't knock on dredge.And depending on what your MD choices are, you don't necessarily need 4 slots in the SB for gy-hate. If you run 3+ EE, Vindicates, 2+ Sweepers, you can generally get away with 3, either Extirpate or Planar Void. Barring straight nut-draws, Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as people make it out to be.
Congrats!!! So you run UWr configuration???
Does anyone know what Jupiter Landstill lists are looking like these days? I can't find results for that location anywhere.
I know that the Top 8 list this past weekend was BUG and not UWx. To be honest, I haven't seen UWx played at any event recently.
The list you came up with is interesting, but not interesting enough to pry me away from playing Survival at the moment. The results I've had with Survival are more positive than what I think Landstill could do in this metagame. Even against what I played against at Vestal this past weekend, in only one matchup would I have liked to play Landstill (Survival Elves), and that's still a long stretch. Just not worth it right now, in my opinion. Too much flex needed to adjust to any metagame, one wrong card choice and you find yourself dropping early.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
I think pretty much everyone who has played this deck for a while now is feeling similar. This deck can definitely beat Survival, but in order to do so you have to skew your card choices so much that you end up having a far weaker matchup against decks you should be beating (CB, Rock, Bant).
In all honesty, after getting stomped by Goblins AND ProBantx2 (I did manage to beat 2 UG VVSurs though), I'm putting this deck away, at least until December 20th. It's just to hard to try and catch the three biggest decks right now (TES, Gx Sur, Folk), and not lose to everything else. Deedstill just has better game against the Survival and Merfolk decks naturally and doesn't need to bend-over backwards to beat them, keeping their game against all the other stuff in the format.
But to anyone who is a masochist and wants to keep going with UWx, I'd say black splash is probably better than red *RIGHT NOW*. Extirpate, Perish, and Engineered Plague are extremely useful right now, and Spell Pierce is a fine substitute for REB/Pyroblast. You're matchup against Folk is slightly worse, but you have a much better chance against just about everything else.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
I agree here, which I guess helps reiterate both of our points for this situation. If you happen to stuff your board full of (what I would think is the right quantity of) the following:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Perish/Nature's Ruin
3 Extirpate
You really only have 5 slots open. I generally like to increase the number of StP/PtE effects for the aggro matchups, and in this case it would be crucial to have something more against Merfolk than Engineered Plague. When you start thinking along this line of thought, you come to a point where the sideboard just becomes dysfunctional against everything else. No room for Negates, barely space left for GY hate, etc.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
This is essentially a biggest problem with control decks right now - you can't squeeze answers for everything. You can tune to beat every deck, but all your other match ups are going to suck.
Non-control decks get away by presenting their own threats. Who cares about being unable to answer the opponent, if you're attacking for 16 with Vines, or Tendrilsing him to death. Or beating with a bunch of lords or 10/10 KoTR, etc. We don't have that luxury. Not until WoTC prints something ridiculous.
This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.
UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.
- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.
Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.
I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.
Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.
This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.
UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.
- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.
Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Em
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.
I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.
Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.
This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.
UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.
- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.
Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Emrakul/Progenitus: +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.
I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.
Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.
Metalwalker, your Goblins match looks pretty rough. All you have to side in is a Path and a Chant and pray you get the Scepter-lock, against a deck running 4 Vials and 8 pieces of land-hate. Humility will do you some good, but you only run 1 not Tops to dig for it. I really think you need a sweeper in the board like WoG or more Humility. If you DON'T get the Scepter-lock, you will get overrun by their CA engines, and StP effects (no matter how good they are) just won't cut it against Ringleader and Matron. Some type of sweeper-Esq effect is really necessary to deal with their late-game.
I only point this out due commonality of the matchup in most developed metagames. If yours has no Goblins then the list looks pretty solid.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
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