I have been thinking about working with the UW Landstill list from Vintage (with Emrakul, the Promised End) and adapting it to Legacy. My biggest concern is not being able to get to Emrakul in time. Has anyone played around with it at all?
I tried something similar with Mausoleum Wanderers, more Flash creatures (Spell Queller, 4 Snaps) and a Stoneforge package (Jitte, Batterskull, and Sword of Fire and Ice, with sideboard Manriki-Gusari and Sword of Feast and Famine). Your fair blue matchups tend to be even (Delver) to pretty favorable (Miracles), but other than Lands and D&T (which are about even) the nonblue matchups aren't t great, especially Eldrazi. The pieces all had a fair amount of tension, with Wanderer encouraging more Spirits, Sprite pushing you toward more Faeries, Stoneforge favoring more creatures, and Snapcaster Mage wanting more spells. Standstill was a later addition. Cutting the Stoneforge package for more spells made the deck operate more smoothly, but made your matchups more polarized because making your creatures not suck in combat is critical for beating Eldrazi and Tarmogoyf decks. Unfair decks, Infect in particular, were all great matchups.
If I were rebuilding the deck I'd probably go back to 2 Snaps and add a Rattlechains or 2 and embrace being more of a Flash creature deck.
As you might have guessed, I am very on board with the Crucibles.
I would imagine that Moat + Counterspell is a pretty solid plan versus Eldrazi, because I don't know that they play any way out of an Enchantment besides All is Dust and most lists can't even ping you with Endbringer, because they don't play it.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I've been lurking the thread actually and seen that you've been doing really well with it, I'll have to give yours a try soon too!
Spirits is a neat idea, I like the sound of Rattlechains and Spell Queller especially. I'm not sure about Wanderer though as this deck is ultimately trying to get to the late game where it's pretty blank. Are there any more decent spirits that the deck could run along with Rattlechains and Queller? Otherwise I think playing Spellstutter and Clique is a bit better.
The list did originally have SfM but I cut it as the curve wanted to be reactive in the early game and leans on moat for some matchups (Eldrazi and DnT mostly). There could almost be a third Moat in the 75, or a Verdict if there is a lot of Delver.
Crucible has been wonderful in the deck so far, it's such a bomb in so many matchups.
Moat was the reason I started working on the list, it's in a pretty good spot right now!
Unfortunately I don't actually own any myself so have been testing with proxies irl and have a friend play the deck. Such a sweet card too...maybe time to dump some more money on cards
I'm one of those "lucky" ones who bought them when they were cheap. Payed something like $50 a piece, sometime in 2008 or nine. While Team America was the Legacy deck I always wanted to build back then, White Stax was what I did. When someone here posted about Dutch Stax, when Elspeth was new, I ponied up the money and bought the Moats and Elspeths (even an English Ravages of War).
I played BUG Landstill for a while in 2013 to combat TNN decks that were around then. Never did get a chance to play UW Landstill though. November is nearly Thanksgiving month for me though, so it will probably be a while until I can get to play this.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but it seems to fit best...
So I've been messing around with a landstill list with a bit of english on it to reasonable success online (I'm too poor for MTGO, so I play on XMage).
My basic list is built under the theory that Mishra's Factory is slow and shitty as a win condition, and the Dark Depths combo, while requiring two cards, can be played under a standstill and has significantly more power (and, to a degree, untility). It conveniently has a tutor for it that is on color and can also be played under a standstill in Tolaria West. The deck is primarily G/U, because green plays well with the lands combo, with a white splash for Knight of the Reliquary as a third tutor, general beatstick and utility piece, and Terminus, which is the best removal spell in the format. I'm running Force of Will for protection and Counterbalance because I firmly believe there's no reason to run counterspell if you're not playing counterbalances already. The primary tutor for the deck is Living Wish, giving us the versatility of post-side pre-side and acting as surgical insurance along with tutoring our win conditions, as well as allowing us to streamline the utility in the very demanding manabase that results. To help support Force of Will, the deck plays 64 cards, with the extra four slots over sixty being Gixtaxian Probes. Being relatively 'free' while increasing the blue count, helping the counterbalance curve, and letting you peak at your opponent's hand, the extra four over sixty seems to matter very little.
//Lands
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Island
3 Tolaria West
2 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
//Acceleration
4 Mox Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
3 Exploration
//Card Selection
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
//Business
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Living Wish
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Standstill
2 Terminus
3 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Academy Ruins
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Terminus
SB: 1 Force of Will
That's the 75 I've mostly settled on. Some cards I didn't pick:
Maze of Ith
Kor Haven
Bojuka Bog
Sejiri Steppe
Sanctum Prelate
Gaddock Teeg
Ethersworn Canonist
Tyrgon Predator
Crop Rotation
Counterspell
Stifle
Stoneforge Mystic //(and sundry equipment)
Life from the Loam
Maze has been irrelevant in every matchup I've played it in; I've always wanted either Glacial Chasm or been dead anyway. It got cut for the Academy Ruins. Kor Haven is a more expensive version of the same.
Bojuka Bog just doesn't do enough to hate on graveyards. Without Crop Rotation, it's strictly mediocre; Crop Rot wants it in the main anyway, and the card is just generally not good enough as a one-shot effect.
Sejiri Steppe was in the main for a while in the fifth fetch spot. The fetch was better and the effect is suboptimal from the board (Especially at sorcery speed)
Haven't tested prelate. Probably better than Teeg, which wasn't good enough to keep in the board. It, teeg and canonist all just seem too slow against storm, and not super effective anyway. Storm is built to beat these cards these days.
Tyrgon Predator seems generally worse than Rec Sage by virtue of needing to connect first. I tried both and never fetched the predator over the sage, so predator got cut.
Crop Rotation: This is the only card I'd actually like to put back in the main. It's incredibly powerful and makes the combo significantly quicker. I'm just not sure where to put it.
I've already stated my thoughts on conterspell, and stifle falls in a similar category.
Stoneforge takes up too many slots and doesn't seem to do enough for the deck to be worth it.
Crucible is a better version of loam in this deck.
The only real problem matchup so far has been BR reanimator, who's absurd speed and resiliency is absurd. The Academy Ruins and EE slots have floated through several different iterations, including bog, a pair of surgicals, and two more containment priest, all to fight this matchup. I generally believe that a broader suite is better, though, and subscribe to the "build a 75, not a 60 and a sideboard" theory of deckbuilding, though, so I'm trying the EE plan instead for a couple more percentage points in other matchups.
Thoughts on the list? Any beautiful pieces of tech I'm just missing?
This list is an esper list with a green splash. So I posted it in the BUGx landstill thread as well...
Yesterday I won legacy at MVP games! Bringing home a Time Vault! Thanks Terrance Calvin Hodges and BMG for a kickass event. It was 25ish people!
4c Landstill
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishras Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Vendillion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wasteland
Rd 1 0-2 delver
Rd 2 2-1 belcher
Rd 3 2-1 blade
Rd 4 1-1-1 blade
Rd 5 2-0 miracles
T8 2-1 delver
T4 2-0 storm
Finals 2-0 miracles (beating a resolved back to basics and ruination in game 2)
Today the cards were good. I needed to run this deck back after a great showing at champs with the list!
Awesome. I love the list. Might run it this week if I can make it to FNM.
Do you ever feel it is difficult to close out games? When I played BUG Landstill, it was sometimes an issue.
Also, any issues with running three basics? They are nice to have, but with so many disparate mana costs, I can imagine issues sometimes.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That was actually the opposite thing I was thinking. I suspect (from very preliminary testing) that you can probably squeeze at least the second Island in, and maybe a basic Forest as well by messing with the dual/fetch mix. The attraction to Scrubland and especially Savannah seems to be that you can fetch them and have access to every color combination except UU on turn 2.
Well, the issue is that once you fetch a basic, you have already cut yourself off of one color mana and here it would appear you almost always need 3+ colors. It's difficult for me to articulate this in text, but the Basic Lands don't help you much in protecting from Wasteland in the grand scheme of things, because you'll always need a dual to be on double of a color, which is where most of your action is.
If the deck didn't run Deathrite, it would seem more plausible to me, since then your turn one play would essentially be Land, Pass. But here, you want to drop that turn one Deathrite and so, if you are planning to play around Wasteland, you have to get Basic Swamp. As you said, now you are off UU turn 2, which is fine really, but lets say you want to cast Brainstorm. This is where I see issues, and it gets worse if you kept a hand two only 2 lands (obviously, not ideal, but on a mull to 6, you might just have to), because if you are going to keep playing around Wasteland (and you probably have to, on just two lands) then you have to get Island. Now you are cut off White and Green (although, whatever on Green really). If Deathrite dies, you are in the lurch really. Even if you topdeck another land, there is a fair chance it only taps for Colorless and now you are well behind.
Bleh, I typed all that out and maybe I am conceptualizing it wrong here, since if you kept a two land hand, you will almost certainly lose to Wasteland anyway. I'm just dreading the idea of opening a hand like Plains, Swamp, Factory as the only lands. Or Swamp, Factory, Fetch which might even be worse if Deathrite isn't in it too. I think maybe my biggest issue is just Swamp itself, haha.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I think we're both thinking (mostly) the same way, but we're evaluating the deficiencies of each approach differently. I definitely agree that more basics makes the deck worse against Wasteland in the early game as far as having all of its colors goes, but it also increases the stability of having Ux (or any three color combination) for turn 2. It may be that the manabase is optimized already or what we actually want is more fetches and fewer duals.
Basically this...
Basics are there to fight Ruination and Back to Basics from miracles. The beautiful suite of duals, baiting lands in good order, and using Deathrite Shamans work great vs the wastelands.
In the finals vs miracles, he resolved back to basics game 2, which I sat and did nothing for 3 turns until I found a land to Decay the b2b. Then late game he cast Ruination but I had Swamp, Island, and Deathrite in play. Next turn I played another land, and cast Gideon...he lost that game. The 3 basics are basically damage control vs cards/decks that have the haymaker (hate on non basic) cards.
Why do you have the basic Plains? I'd consider Swamp, Forest, Island as more priority. Maybe just Swamp and Forest but I'd also include more AD in the main. Neat list! I have thought for some time that WUBG Landstill is a good option as StP solves the 1 mana removal problem that BUG tries to overcome with Innocent Blood and Disfigure.
Well in my opinion the Plains is better and here's why. This deck is basically Esper with a green splash. I started with a bug shell and I think straight bug is handicapping ones self because you lose stp as well as other good cards. The 4 Plowshares in the 75 as well as 3 white spells that cost double white lead me to play the Plains.
The Forest would support Decay and not much else. The decays are mainly there to fight Miracles by killIngot counterbalance and b2b. Like Deathrite doesn't need a forest to be a good card, and I don't need Forest in most of the matches where Decay shines.
Having a basic Plains allows me to fetch it up where Plains actually shines...but again the basics are more or less insurance vs the haymakers that hate on non basics. Hope this helps you understand my thoughts more :-P ...now if this was vintage, I'd absolutely want Forest to feed Nature's Claims and Decays because Workshop decks haha!
Indeed, I can see Island and Plains as making sense. Last thing you want versus a Delver deck, for example, is to be Wasted off being able to Cast Brainstorm or Swords. Swamp is a little shaky, being great to fetch for, but very weak in the starting hand. That's where my fear of too many basics comes from, being that we have 5 Colorless Lands in addition. Forest would definitely be even worse than Swamp, you answer to Blood Moon is just, first, hope they don't have it, second, have mana up to float then Decay, third, Force it, or fourth, EE for 3 (hopefully you'll have at least two Basics). You can't beat everything, so sometimes if they have the nuts, they have the nuts, .
In the end though, with the Non-Basic hate that floats around, from Ruination, to From the Ashes to even Price of Progress, they probably are a necessity (even if they are going to flat out make some hands unkeepable). I'll try to give the list a run as is (although I don't own a Gideon, I'll just make a bad substitution, probably Garruk).
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Bump to get UWb (Esper) landstill with Fatal Push discussion going. My list would be (very rough):
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fatal Push
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Snare
1 Snapcaster Mage
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Fatal Push
2 Moat
3 Surgical Extraction
3x
Excited that LandStill has got a great 1-mana removal spell to hopefully stage a comeback!
Ive actually just recently bought into this on mtgo. I also saw a vintage version and wanted to adapt it to legacy, not sure if its good or I'm just not the best at playing it. I also went with the promised end version as its an amazing top end with all this sultai stuff floating around. This is what I'm running http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-01-17-landstill/
hi guys!
here there the deck wich i used to win the italian legacy championship
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Arid Mesa
3 Terminus
3 Standstill
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
Sideboard:
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Containment Priest
i've found those MU:
T1 Shard 2-1
T2 Bug midrange 2-0
T3 Grixis delver 2-0
T4 Bug control 1-1
T5 uw Thopters he is a friend of mine and he concede because i was the only one with 4 win
T6 easy ID
top8
Omishow ub 2-1
Maverick 2-1
Junk 2-0
here there is a tournament video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/122273829
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