[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[ashent]

My experiences with Daze have been very good for turn 2 "protected" Standstills in blue mirrors.

On the play against any blue deck a turn 2 Standstill with Daze backup is insanely strong. It also plays well into the fact that the more "free" spells you can get in the list, the better it is in midgame counter wars when they've broken a Standstill. It's always awkward to go up to 10 cards in hand, try to win the battle on the stack, use your mana efficiently, and try not to discard anything very good. Drawing Forces and Dazes off Standstill can answer all those concerns pretty cleanly.

That said, I usually play without it because it's hard to find slots for it in the deck and it's a pretty bad draw. Same as tempo decks in the midgame drawing air, but somewhat worse due to the role of the deck.

[Hanni]

I think Daze is a completely legitimate card to run, but I think if you are going to do that, you should also run Delver.

[Freundla]

Hello,

I totally agree with ashent, the first good reason are the control-mirrors, where having more manaless counters in a counterwar is just great and a "lost" landdrop is not that important. Also protecting a standstill on the stack with Daze is very good, because if the standstill then resolves, most of the times both players draw until someone misses landdrops. With daze you have one land back in your hand, what protects you from being the first player which misses landdrops in the long-term. The second good reason is, that the opponent gets punished for tapping out. Just the fact that you play Daze, makes a good opponent play around Daze, which is exactly what I want, because it will slow down the whole game and push it to the lategame, where my deck is better than the average creature/midrange deck. Spell Pierce and Spell Snare don't counter creatures as good as Daze does, which is really important and also cost one mana, which is additionally bad because of chalice. The third reason I play Daze is that it never gets bad, because I play Crucible + Wasteland main. I had several games where I managed to Daze something in Turn 10+, even Jace, Batterskull and Show and Tell because I wasted him the turns before. I am not sure, if I would play Daze without the Crucible, or having less than 3 Wastelands. Also if the opponent always plays around Daze, I just board them out Game 2 and 3.
@Hanni: I would never run Delver, we are not a beatdown deck. But also without Delver, Daze is a great card in my List.

[frustanani]

I'm using Retrofitter Foundry in another deck (mono blue with 4 Delver of Secrets & 4 Standstill) and I find it very strong. I think it is much better than Myth Realized
I am using it in a package

3 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Mutavault
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Retrofitter Foundry can create a token each turn or "upgrade" Mutavault to a 4/4 Construct .. with also Crucible of Worlds it becomes quite funny.

Is anyone trying it ?

[Fox]

Played in ABU Games Win-a-dual series today; there was something like 14-16 decks iirc. Structure was 4 rounds, cut to top8.

Round 1 vs Merfolk (Cosi's Trickster, Reegerie, and 2x Standstill build) win 2-0. Game 1 Terminus 2x Silvergills, Plow 2x Lords, Waste a Mutavault, and TNN loses race to Mentor. Game 2 open up Wasteland on Cavern; slow game where opponent ends up with Trickster and Silvergill looking at Mentor (plus like 2 monks) and Humility - Azcanta took game over, scoop to Teferi.

Round 2 vs UWr Miracles, win 2-0. Both games opponent can't respond to multiple Standstill with Counterbalance, gg.

Round 3 vs UW Miracles, draw 1-1-1. Game 1 they get a CB. Game 2 CB dies to Disenchant, Surgicals ban JTMS, SCM, and Brainstorm; opponent won't ever have enough cards to resolve their last CB (should they have found it), scooping to Azcanta into eventual Teferi. Game 3 Counterbalance killed on the stack, banned from game with Surgical - the rest of their deck no longer matters, but we go to time.*

Round 4 vs LED Dredge, ID into top 8. We still played for fun, ended up going 2-0. Game 1 was a pretty funny cripple fight.

Top 8 vs UWr Miracles (different one), loss 2-1. Game 1 they get Counterbalance. Game 2 Counterbalance banned from game with Surgical, also tagged SCM and JTMS with Surgical. Game 3 they get Counterbalance.

Not sure why CancerBalance is still legal...anyways other decks in the room included Infect, Shadow (felt bad since room was overrun by team Tundra, so he was de facto out of top 8 contention when event started), at least one Sneak and Show, and I think a B/R reanimonster maybe. There were others but can't remember.

So same lesson as the last time I played this deck: JTMS <<< Teferi and UW Standstill is an easy contender for deep tournament runs...as long as you dodge CB [or CB gets banned].

*legacy first, this opponent "can't make sense of my lands" and basically asks me to make mixed piles on a board where I have Wasteland, Azcanta, Karakas, 2 diff Fetches, some basic Islands, basic Plains, a Tundra, and a Factory....yeah uh, never been asked to actively hide/misconstrue information.

[ventouza6969]

Fox could you share your list?

[Fox]

Fox could you share your list?

Same list near top of page 265. Only change was SB Karn to Ethersworn Canonist.

[ventouza6969]

Fox
with 2 disenchant 1 council in the board whats for serenity?
ratchet bomb isnt be better from the power ked?
are you still playing noxius reveval?

[Fox]

Fox
with 2 disenchant 1 council in the board whats for serenity?
ratchet bomb isnt be better from the power ked?
are you still playing noxius reveval?

1)CJ is mostly there for control matches to kill PWs, or at least white-Hymn 2 blue cards (FoW) out of opponents hand. CJ has the added benefit of dealing with random problems (TNN, Teeg, untapped Mother of Runes, etc), and sometimes you want another copy. There's something of a trend in legacy where if FoW is bad post-board, then Disenchant'y effects are good to swap in on a 1-for-1 basis. Having 2x Disenchant/1x CJ is probably good enough, but I'm playing the 1x E-Tutor in the board anyways so why not throw the tutor'able Serenity (can play it off SnT, can't be Fluster'd, randomly dismantles stuff like artifact lands/Grim Monolith strats). The important thing is that I use E-Tutor as a way to increase the virtual size of the sideboard, which is probably among the more effective things you can do in UW since you won't have Pyroblast or discard-colored mana.

2)Powder Keg kills manlands/artifact lands, and it doesn't kill my own enchantments. I also don't like tapping down Ratchet Bomb to add a counter, just to have it removed/bounced; I prefer always having the activation up while forcing opponent's to make a move first against the trigger.

3) Yes I still play 1x maindeck Revival, it functions rather similarly to Vampiric Tutor the longer a game goes on, and allows SCM to rebuy any card type (particularly Teferi and Azcanta, which take over games).

[Mr. Safety]

I'm slowly putting this deck together, the only cards i'm missing are 2x force of will and 1-2x tundra. I've been tinkering with an enlightened tutor package, which seems strong for a control deck like this.

Starting point:

3x myth realized
4x standstill
2x search for azcanta
1x detention sphere
1x engineered explosives
1x crucible of worlds
1x soul snare
2x enlightened tutor

4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
2x spell pierce
2x spell snare
2x force of will
2x counterspell
3x supreme verdict
2x jace, the mind sculptor


4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
2x arid mesa
2x hallowed fountain
1x irrigated farmland
4x island
2x plains
4x mishra's factory
2x wasteland
1x karakas

Sideboard
1x rest in peace
1x ethersworn canonist
1x pithing needle
1x grafdigger's cage
4x misdirection
2x disenchant
2x sower of temptation
3x open

[ventouza6969]

I have played your list Fox enough games now and i have a few notices. Mentor does a huge difference than normal standstill lists without any copy of mentor. Many times i would like to have into my hand some cheep counter such as snare or pierce. And i think 4 portent is too many it might be better some ponders instead of portent. What do you think?

[Fox]

Sounds like money is going to be a bit of an issue for your deck @Mr.Safety, but it might help to put these in improvement batches.
1- Arid Mesa out, all secondary Fetches able to grab blue (8th or 9th Fetch is soonest we should see 1x Mesa)
2- 24 lands + 2x Azcanta is a little higher than it has to be, -1 Irrigated Farmland and -1 Factory. [+2 slots]
3- E-Tutors and Soul Snare main -> Snapcaster x3
4- Surgical x2 SB
5- Crucible to SB [+1 slot]
6- 3x Verdict and 2x Plains means you're probably never beating DnT (Thalia + single Port is going to make this difficult) -> Terminus x3
7- 2x Sower out, move in ~1x E-Tutor to SB. Cut 2x Misdirection for E-Tutor targets.
8- 2x Council's Judgement, 1x to main, other SB [+2 MD slots remain]
9- the expensive one: Tundra x2 and FoW x2

I don't really like Myth Realized vs Mentor; it's not that productive to go turn 1 white card in a Counterspell deck given Wasteland is a card. Main decision fork will be Terminus vs Verdict, if Terminus then try to fit in Portent (this is where the extra slot of 2x Mentor vs 3x Myth is another big difference). The Tundra issue is going to cost win %, but not having SCM will likely cost more wins than that. Look back a page @fapsik and @RogueMTG's Myth lists for other ideas. Another good source is Luke T's lists from MtG top8 site: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20501&d=334675&f=LE. An all-Verdict build isn't necessarily bad, but it is a minority approach.

@ventouza6969 those changes all sound perfectly reasonable. Snare sounds like a generally better choice than Pierce, unless you're not expecting a ton of Counterbalance and Hymn. Portent was chosen to set up Terminus on their turn and for synergy with Teferi -3 -> shuffle it off (or re-bury another 3 down after 2 turns). Ponder/Portent comes down to personal preference. One last note about Pierce; I personally prefer not to play land-go (assumes Standstill in play) and then draw into soft permission that is likely already dead on arrival.

[Mr. Safety]

Sounds like money is going to be a bit of an issue for your deck @Mr.Safety, but it might help to put these in improvement batches.
1- Arid Mesa out, all secondary Fetches able to grab blue (8th or 9th Fetch is soonest we should see 1x Mesa)
2- 24 lands + 2x Azcanta is a little higher than it has to be, -1 Irrigated Farmland and -1 Factory. [+2 slots]
3- E-Tutors and Soul Snare main -> Snapcaster x3
4- Surgical x2 SB
5- Crucible to SB [+1 slot]
6- 3x Verdict and 2x Plains means you're probably never beating DnT (Thalia + single Port is going to make this difficult) -> Terminus x3
7- 2x Sower out, move in ~1x E-Tutor to SB. Cut 2x Misdirection for E-Tutor targets.
8- 2x Council's Judgement, 1x to main, other SB [+2 MD slots remain]
9- the expensive one: Tundra x2 and FoW x2

I don't really like Myth Realized vs Mentor; it's not that productive to go turn 1 white card in a Counterspell deck given Wasteland is a card. Main decision fork will be Terminus vs Verdict, if Terminus then try to fit in Portent (this is where the extra slot of 2x Mentor vs 3x Myth is another big difference). The Tundra issue is going to cost win %, but not having SCM will likely cost more wins than that. Look back a page @fapsik and @RogueMTG's Myth lists for other ideas. Another good source is Luke T's lists from MtG top8 site: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20501&d=334675&f=LE. An all-Verdict build isn't necessarily bad, but it is a minority approach.

Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it. My reason for 24 lands was to ensure I could reliably hit WW for Verdict and UU for counterspell/Jace. Budget isn't really the issue, it's availability. I strongly believe in supporting my LGS, so my MTG cash budget is in store credit at the LGS. I have $400+ in store credit, so Tundra is in my near future if they can get hold of one. Force of Will and the 2nd Tundra I am actively trading for with other legacy folks locally. Once the stars align, I'll get there.

1) I wasn't sure about the land mix, I can definitely get the blue fetch count higher. I can get Scalding Tarn into the deck easily enough. Follow-up question: how many fetches? I was thinking 8, but I can definitely go up to 9-10 (#10 would be Arid Mesa.)

2) I could possibly cut 1 land, I just wasn't seeing Factory/Wasteland/Azcanta as lands. I've played a lot of Pox and that always plays a ton of lands (24-27) with the realization that 6 in my list aren't colored mana sources. That leaves me with 18, which is probably ok given Standstill/Brainstorm/Search for Azcanta, but I am still uncomfortable with it. I'm not familiar with Landstill enough to know the land mix aside from just copying lists. Follow-up question: is Maze of Ith a consideration? It seems very good (not as a land, but as a 'spell'.)

3) E-Tutor I think I'm committed to trying for now. I can definitely see it as a sideboard tech, so I'll do that for now. I have the 3 Snapcasters so I can jam those in right away.

4) With Snapcaster, Surgical sideboard seems perfectly logical. I'll still have the E-Tutor board with RiP, etc.

5) Crucible sideboard is ok, but if I play it in the side I would likely drop the Wastelands. I like it maindeck, and with it only taking up 1 slot I think I'll keep it there. Again, I am not optimized until I get the forces/tundras.

6) I see what you mean about Port/D&T. I don't want to go the terminus route, because I don't want to jam Portent/Ponder. Given Verdict only, what do you suggest for white mana sources?

7) Totally understand the Sower out, ETutor board swap. Sower was for Sneak/Show, which I see often at the local.

8) Judgment I was foregoing for Detention Sphere, again because of the Etutor package. I'll work on getting those as well.

9) Understood!!!

The Myth lists are the ones putting up numbers, so I'm not sure where you are going with Mentor vs. Myth. If you are on Mentor and Terminus, isn't it better to just switch over to Miracles?

[Erdvermampfa]

Play Academy Ruins and Tolaria West.

[Mr. Safety]

So:

-1 Wasteland
-1 Island

+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Tolaria West

Is that what you're thinking? I'd be really tempted to play Maze of Ith with Tolaria West...

[Erdvermampfa]

I would even consider to increase the number of "lands" to 25 because Tolaria isn't really a mana source but a Demonic Tutor 4 landz n' stuff. I also suggest to defy the temptation of going too cute with stuff like Maze of Ith tbh. The manabase of Landstill is already fragile enough due to the obligatory manlands so cutting even more basics doesn't seem good to me either.

[Fox]

@Mr. Safety if you're dead-set on running Verdicts you probably need 4 basic Plains (given how bad that feels, maybe hide 1x in SB), if you want to have a shot at beating DnT. Even with enough plains to get WW in a main phase, I think you're still dead by the time you get 6 mana, which is what DnT will make Verdict cost. This is one of the bigger questions going forward; whether or not you want to even try to have a winnable DnT matchup. Playing that many Plains will eventually cost you win % against the rest of the field, and you'd also have to drop Wasteland as a tool.

As far as Fetchland numbers go, I think 8 is plenty but 9 with a Mesa is about equivalent.

Maze of Ith isn't a card I would play. If I wanted a utility land that wasn't Wasteland/Factory/Karakas, the next card at the top of the list is Desert by a large margin. As highly as I rank Desert, another Wasteland is still degrees of magnitude better.

To answer why play Standstill w/ Mentor/Terminus over miracles is subjective. I find that:
-miracles is a Counterbalance combo deck, not hard control
-playing with and against Counterbalance makes worse magic players
-miracles is boring, unchallenging, and at best a tier 2 strategy without Counterbalance
-there is little more pointless than playing games where both players have effects like Locus lands or AK. While games like those are 'stupid,' Standstill mirrors provide some of the highest caliber games with sharp board states

Objectively:
-Standstill is currently the best possible Teferi-specialized shell. [the hypothesis: this shell makes it a better choice than JTMS. ex: play Teferi, untap 2, Cspell their thing, and you probably just won]
-Azcanta is way better when you have the tools to snipe their Azcanta and distract/kill enemy Wastelands
-These former 2 points are multiplicative. With both in play you draw 4 [with substantial selection] per each 1 card opponents draw (remember Teferi untaps Azcanta). By itself Azcanta builds to this endgame with exceptional speed. This endgame is hardly necessary to win a game, it just so happens that this is what all the stabilizing elements (SCM/white spells) and the Standstill plan work towards without going out of their way.
-Mentor takes up 2 slots and works seamlessly with above 3 points because it's a poorly designed card.

So to me miracles doesn't really have a point other than surviving long enough to scum wins off Counterbalance. It plays slower than 'jammy jam' strategies, but it's pretty much the same no-strategy animal. I don't find decks without a unifying plan to be particularly fun or challenging as they do not present nor solve puzzles.

P.S. I would get plenty of reps in with a tuned list before using T. West and Academy Ruins. That's a RUG Lands thing last I checked, and I know of no convincing evidence that this is an effective way to win a game of legacy.

[ventouza6969]

Yesterday i played a couple of games. I like your list Fox is very enjoyable. I have made one change only -1 teferi +1 jace because i think at least one jace is a necessary evil and off course if there is any situation having in hand 2 copies of teferi i would rather choose whitch one is better to play in the current situation. But i have an interesting plays with noxious revival when my opponent cracked my standstill one the three cards was the noxious so eot i casted noxious to put into my library the standstill and in my turn i casted again...it was the game. And in the second match i set up a terminus from the grave to the top of my library with noxious...it was fantastic!
I think that noxious need more explore than it seems. It is not replace itself, it is green and we need to have at least 3 life to cast it but it provides a unique help into this deck

[Mr. Safety]

I ended up with this list for now, testing shall commence:

Creatures - 2

2x Snapcaster Mage

Enchantments/Artifacts - 12

4x Standstill
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Myth Realized
1x Detention Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds

Instants - 19

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
2x Counterspell
2x Force of Will
2x Enlightened Tutor

Sorceries - 2

2x Supreme Verdict

Planeswalkers - 2

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands - 24
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
2x Plains
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West
1x Karakas

Sideboard
2x Disenchant
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Dispel
3x Misdirection
1x Rest in Peace
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Control Magic (this is America, I do what I want)
2x Surgical Extraction

[Erdvermampfa]

Imo this list is worse than the previous. The previous one was at least focused around Standstill by breaking its symmetry with sufficient number of Mishras and Myths. Now you threw Snapcasters into the pile which is hardly understandable because Snapcaster is a different engine than Standstill. There is only necessity and space for one engine. Tolaria West doesn't make much sense without Ruins either. The idea is to get inevitability through the combination of Tolaria, Crucible, EE, Ruins and Wasteland.

I like your reasoning for Control Magic though.