Just a quick note here: Snapcaster is stock in UW Standstill (3x copies at that). It is not opposed to the Standstill plan: ideally turn 2 Standstill -> draw some cards -> kill their threat on their turn (preferably with SCM flashback) -> re-Standstill w/ 2/1 on board. The other very important aspect of SCM is the throw-away 2/1 body means that you don't have to animate Factories or Myth into removal, so opponents are [ideally] forced to lose an otherwise Factory-targeting resource to kill a Snapcaster.
Compared to the last maindeck, this one looks significantly better, though I would like to see wraths brought back up to 3 slots and Myth Realized brought back up to 3 slots. Myth builds don't really take down games at 2 copies or below. Though Myth is a pretty terrible topdeck (compensate by running Jace to flush out of hand, which is correct), you still want a reasonable chance to see it in opening hands. The Myth numbers can perhaps be fudged a bit in this list because E-Tutor can act as virtual copies.
Past those three things [SCM, wrath, Myth], the structure of the deck is more or less fine given the financial constraints [Tundra and FoW]. The deck is doing this experiment of E-Tutor over Portent/Ponder, but this doesn't disrupt the "this is why UW Standstill works" skeleton.
Snapcasters and the 2nd jace were by far the best inclusions, so far. The 3rd Verdict is probably necessary, might cut the 3rd Spell Pierce for it.
Cutting to 2 Myths was how i got the snaps in, and with etutor i'm still functionally playing 4.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I finished up my set of Force of Will last Friday, so I'm really just missing a couple Tundras and I will have a fairly optimal list. I'm sold on the E-Tutor package for now, it's been super good at handling random garbage. ETutor also allows me to drop my Myth count while still having access to it. TWest has been very good at nabbing Wasteland, Karakas, Factory, and EE. Control Magic is for the Sneak/Show matchup, along with randomly being great against Depths and 12Post.
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Myth Realized
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Detention Sphere
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Search for Azcanta
3x Mishra’s Factory
2x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas
2x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West
Sideboard
1x Rest in Peace
1x Control Magic
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Misdirection
2x Dispel
Happy to hear any suggestions, especially for the sideboard. Misdirection, Dispel, and Control Magic are all flexible slots. With Azcanta and 2nd Jace I think I might be able to swing Terminus x2-3, but so far Verdict has been ok (still worried about the noted D&T matchup.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Control Magic seems a bit unnecessary. But if you really want this type of effect, play Vedalken Shackles. It's more flexible and can steal stronger creatures over the game.
Containment Priest is a quite safe include. This card handles so many match ups and also Death and Taxes due to Vial and Flickerwisp.
I would add Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Untaps your lands and gives card advantage. His ultimate is just madness with a Standstill.
I would change Dispel for Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm can deal with a combo match up and is overall a good card for a counter war.
Misdirection seems also quite unnecessary.
Rather add some Null Rod/ Stony Silence or Celestial Purge. Purge deals with nasty Lilianas out of any Grixis deck.
Detention Sphere is an okay removal but would add Council's Judgment which deals with everything. You can add Path to Exile if you need more Spotremoval.
You can add also some True-Name Nemesis. It offers the best protection avaible while pressure the opponent, great against control.
I don't play Standstill a lot, just a few games, but tend to have a similar sideboard in every UW Control deck. It looks like this:
2 Vendilion Clique ( Against combo and control also against Stoneforge Mystic)
2 Flusterstorm (great against combo and for counterwars)
1 Supreme Verdict (against creature heavy decks where Spotremoval is not good enough)
2 Disenchant (nothing to explain)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (just combo hate)
1 Celestial Purge (against Grixis and every black or red deck)
2 Surgical Extraction (grave hate, good against Grixis for Command+Snapcaster chains, Accumulated knowledge)
1 Containment Priest (Reanimator+Show&Tell for sure but also Green Sun's Zenith, Dredge, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey)
1 Path to Exile (against grindy decks and Delvers)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion (beat control sooooo hard)
1 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge and Reanimator mostly)
anyone plays a Stoneblade/Standstill list? Would be interesting to see
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Thanks for the response!
Control Magic was there as an answer to Show and Tell while also being tutorable with Enlightened Tutor. One more mana than Shackles but Shackles is never stealing an Emrakul/Griselbrand. Detention Sphere over Council's Judgment is for the same reason Enlightened Tutor. Rest in Peace, ditto, ETutor synergy instead of Containment Priest.
The Elspeth is a great suggestion. I was thinking something big like that or Mobilization, something that can just dump out tokens. Teferi is a card I am considering, or even a 3rd Jace. Resolving the first Jace against control decks is usually very, very good.
Misdirection is for decks that rely on discard (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Duress) to force through their combos/bombs. Standstill recovers the card disadvantage really nicely, it's a fairly standard inclusion in Dreadstill (which plays Dreadnought and Force of will, both are card disadvantage.) I also have some pretty big flexibility with my sideboard because of the ETutor package maindeck. I can have a 'lean' toolbox and still have tons of redundancy with the other sideboard slots.
You clued in to why I'm playing Dispel: I don't have any Flusterstorms yet. Once I do it will be a straight swap, easy. Thanks for the reminder.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Control Magic isn't the best card against Show and Tell neither is Shackles. They probably use Omniscience or Sneak Attack. Containment Priest is still better there. Also it's good against Reanimator where Control Magic is too slow. Also it denies Green Sun's Zenith.
I can understand your point about the Tutor but there are some points:
- Tutor is card disadvantage
- Instant and Sorceries are usable with Snapcaster Mage
I would play a Judgment somewhere in the 75.
Discard is sometimes a problem but Misdirection isn't the best solution. That's the job of the Standstills.
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~greetings from Germany~
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What do you think is the best card against show and tell? I currently have maindeck Detention Sphere and sideboarded Control Magic. Both of those are lights out if I let S&T resolve. With 8 counterspells and 4 other ways (ETutor/DSphere/Karakas) to deal with Emrakul or Grizzle I would say that I'm fairly well prepare to be at least even with S&T. If they are trying to draw into enough counters to win the counter war, which takes time, I can Tolaria West into Karakas. Sideboard I can bring in Needle for Sneak Attack/Grizzle, Control Magic, and Dispel to win counter wars. I'm not that worried about the Sneak/Show matchup. I'm not sure Blessed Alliance is correct in that matchup, but it's another option.
Reanimator has to play around maindeck Karakas, 4x Swords to Plowshares, 4x Force of Will, Karaks, and 2x Spell Pierce. Sideboard they have to contend with all that plus Pithing Needle for Grizzle, Rest in Peace, Misdirection, and Surgical Extraction. Funny thing about Misdirection: if they have multiple targets in their graveyard I can redirect Reanimate to something I can deal with easier. Many times they will sideboard in Grave Titan. I can redirect it to something like Chancellor of the Annex. Misdirection on their discard spells is another turn zero play to rob them of their best way to interact with me.
ETutor is card disadvantage, yes, but I can afford it becase there is literaly a fuck-ton of other card advantage in the deck to compensate. Standstill, Snapcaster, Jace, Search for Azcanta, and Crucible of Worlds. You also haven't lived the dream if you've never played Snapcaster > Enlightened Tutor > silver bullet. It's actually really good at creating inevitability. Late-game Wasteland locks with Crucible or just digging out another Standstill to bury them is incredibly good.
With that out of the way, I do see an option of just sideboarding the ETutors and having a package there instead of maindeck. It's fairly compact and would let me jam a 3rd Snapcaster and a 3rd Myth Realized. DSphere becomes Counci's Judgment, Crucible becomes Spell Snare or just jamming another Spell Pierce.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Your points are totally understandable and a small tutor package is also nice to have.
But you assume that your opponents do nothing.
Show and tell has so many tools and also reanimator.
A good Show and tell player takes his time which results in your loss.
All the Cardstock you mentioned do nothing if your opponent has omniscience. It blanks Karakas, control magic, detention sphere.
The most important thing against combo is to play pressure while disrupting your opponents pieces.
There is a reason why people are playing containment priest, ethersworn canonist, thalia etc.
They are proven to be good.
Also those cards are good in a wide variety of match ups, as I mentioned before.
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Fair points. I would argue Detention Sphere is incredibly good against omniscience, however. I would also argue that against combo I can create a situation where my opponent literally can't win. From there the wincon is arbitrary; a single snapcaster or factory does the job.
Another reason for doing this is that i want to play something different. If i wanted a streamlined, perfect uw control deck i would be playing miracles.
I understand i need to advance my game, but with 2x myth, 3x factory, and 2x jace i have plenty of win conditions. Honestly Jace could become my primary wincon, and i would add another copy.
Last point: theory crafting is fine, but real games are the best developer for a deck. So far testing has been fantastic, but if it shows where improvements can be made, i'll definitely make them.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I ran this deck when Myth first came out. I called it MythStill. I ran the E. Tutor package as well and oddly enough S&T was a matchup I hardly ever lost... I won because more than likely the S&T player would run out the critter instead of Omniscience, and I would have Humility as the answer... Humility does nothing to your man lands, or myth, but hoses everything else in the format.... game three can get annoying simply because of the player knowing they have to have an Omniscience and cunning wish to get the wipe away and it can go forever... I usually still ended up winning the match up pretty regularly.
The deck fell to Eldrazi pretty handily though (Chalice jus destroyed me!) but I was Esper not jus blue/white
It was posted in the "Esper Mentor" posts.... Here is the list I ran forever ago (as is evident by the bans that occurred) You can still get an idea for what my sideboard was though which should still hold up in today's meta
Spells
4x Force of Will
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Cabal Therapy
3x sensei's divining top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
3x Myth Realized
2x counter balance
Creatures
4x Deathrite Shawman
2x Monastary Mentor
2x V Clique (or 2x snap casters, don't really like JTMS in this build, potentially running 1 JTMS and 1 Clique would make sense here)
Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar pit
1x Plains
Sidboard:
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Flusterstorm
1x V. Clique
1x Karakas
3x E. Tutor
1x BitterBlossom
2x Ethersworn Canonist
Flex board slots ( completely dependant on the meta.... usually I like to include humility due to my Myth's and Factories being unaffected. But if Emarkul isn't running around in the meta a lot then there really isn't as much of a need for this card.)
1x Elspeth knight-errant
2x Containment Priest
2x seal of cleansing
1x Chill
1x Humility
1x Rest in Peace
Yeah, I'm definitely trying to obtain a humility for the board. I am also considering Venser/VClique to pair with the maindeck Karakas. Venser answers a lot of things and can be a pretty good lock against some decks with Karakas. If i do that i need to trim on a 4 drop, probably Verdict (4th to board.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Esper is a really interesting idea, mostly because i like the idea of a 3rd color for explosives as well as Bitterblossom. I have to contemplate this, because i'm already short on the Tundras and USeas are a pipe dream at this point.
I'm not sure what other black cards are worth splashing. It would probably have to be included in the etutor package. Mana rocks like Talismans, maybe Vault of Whispers.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The issue with Esper is mana insecurity, you'd have to drop every utility land that wasn't a manland (Wasteland, Karakas). It's bad enough leading Tundra [into enemy Wasteland] to cast Myth into hold up Counterspell without also having USea openers. DRS was the most important part of getting away with 3 colors in @TnA_Will's list (on-board threat into guaranteed two mana, through Wasteland, for either Cspell or Standstill). Most of that list has been banned (DRS, Probe, SDT) and CB isn't a good card in [non-SDT] draw-go control. Those tools are now Jace/Teferi, Azcanta, Terminus (or other wrath which is mostly uncastable vs DnT), and Ponder/Portent. That list is mostly reduced to Cabal Therapy as the only maindeck contribution of black, and even this would have been cut with the loss of Probe.
Looking at the board it's Blossom (not great when Standstill's strategy is to wrath a few times) and ZP which could be a TNN & PW-killing card (Council's Judgement). Black definitely gives Thoughtseize if you want it, but you're not gaining too much other than SB options like Dread of Night [Mentor would not be in deck] or a subpar non-blue walker. If you're talking three colors for EE and compromising the mana, I don't think you can ever pass up red's Pyroblast.
I agree. It was a talking point. I'm actually considering going back in time and slamming thopter/sword and a full set of etutors. I would drop all non-snap dudes, maybe even snaps, and possibly even play counterbalance. Eight ways to trigger cb with bstorm/etutor seems efficient enough to include 2 cb. Without sdt, as you say, its a little sketchy. Maybe cut the karakas for academy ruins and thopter sword. Its actually a pretty fast way to close out games and is excellent against depths strategies.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I mean those are all things you can do, and Foundry can play without adding black, but it's a lot of slots and you have to ask whether or not you'd rather have Azcanta at 2 mana and Teferi at 5 mana by themselves [and then together]. Once you start playing into Surgical, you probably keep digging a deeper hole by cutting E-Tutor for Intuition for Crucible/Academy/something or Thopter/Sword/Academy. I think you'd be banking heavily on dodging every fair deck with Hymn/Kcomm/SCM, CB, and Delver to garner advantage from the Thopter/Sword axis.
I appreciate the feedback. What is driving the conversation of a different approach is the fact that Myth Realized has been underwhelming. It's really only good t1 but it isn't strong enough to warrant multiple copies. I have found Factories and Snap/Clique/Venser beats to be just as reliable. The Enlightened Tutor package has been stellar, doing exactly what I want it to do. Mentor seems to be the logical step for threats, but I don't have the cantrip engine to feed him. It would have the same anemic effect as Myth Realized; I'm not cantripping a ton and I don't want to jeopardize the Standstill engine.
So here is my list currently with some open slots:
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Spell Pierce
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Standstill
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Detention Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
3x OPEN Slots
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West
Sideboard
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Rest in Peace
1x Humility
1x Pithing Needle
1x Control Magic
2x Hydroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Disenchant
2x Blessed Alliance
2x OPEN
So I have a 3rd Snapcaster I can include, no problem, but that still leaves me 2 more slots. I would love a finisher that can be tutored with ETutor, but Myth Realized isn't good enough. Is there another option? Torrential Gearhulk? Platinum Angel? Wurmcoil Engine? There really isn't anything at 4 or less that's powerful enough.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Without need to shuffle off dead cards (Myth) as much, you can consider Teferi over JTMS. Best use of three open slots probably 2x Search for Azcanta. Burst damage potential fairly specific to Mentor (Entreat not great with this strat) with last slot. Issue with tutorable wincons is that they aren't likely to be more powerful than Ballista (still lacks burst dog compared to Mentor), and using strange old tech like Phyrexian Processor as the finisher has the issue with being too low on life to leverage (and the whole mana cost thing).
Without moving to Mentor, I doubt you're going to find something better than +2 Azcanta and +1 SCM. Really long term power would be from Karakas in the mana base + 13/13 Emmy, but this isn't vintage. Likewise, DOM Karn also not great w/o Moxen and Mana Drain.
I had SfA in there earlier and I found it to be underwhelming. I like the Teferi idea, but I'm not sure it solves the finisher problem. Jace is actually my alternative finisher, one I've pulled on a bunch of times. I've found that with Clique, Venser, 3 Snaps and 3 Factories I've been finishing games alright. As you say, it's a slow deck by nature so having a 'fast' win condition isn't really the point. Anyways, snap #3 is locked in. That leaves 2 slots. You're probably right, SfA is likely the best choice.
I might try Retrofitter Foundry. It only allows for one token a turn, but with enough mana I can upgrade it quickly to a 4/4. I kinda like it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I still don't understand why you don't play a Academy Ruins with Crucible, EE and Tolaria in your list, especially now that you have open space left. If you think that it's an odd suggestion I suggest you guys look a bit deeper in this thread and consider some of the older lists where this combo has been staple for the longest time. Please remember that this is a control/lategame deck and that you should have some source of inevitability in such decks to make sense.
Given the creatures you play I would give a shot to
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Riptide Laboratory
+1/2 Cavern of Souls
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