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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #5341
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    I still don't understand why you don't play a Academy Ruins with Crucible, EE and Tolaria in your list, especially now that you have open space left. If you think that it's an odd suggestion I suggest you guys look a bit deeper in this thread and consider some of the older lists where this combo has been staple for the longest time. Please remember that this is a control/lategame deck and that you should have some source of inevitability in such decks to make sense.
    I like it, I can try it out. It has more to do with it being a colorless land than anything else. I already cut on Wastelands and Factories because the mana is unstable, so adding yet another colorless source is dangerous. I could definitely try it, but with only EE to recur I don't think it's worth it. I suppose I could run a sideboard Tormod's Crypt, but Rest in Peace is so much better.

    I don't see the synergy as that important, good for sure, but slow as balls. Crucible gets me recurring Wastelands, reuses fetchlands, and lets me aggressively trade Factories. Engineered Explosives is great, but is it enough? Maybe. It puts a lot of stock into the graveyard, stock I don't know if I can wager money on.

    So this is what I'll try:

    +1 Snap
    +1 Academy Ruins
    +1 Myth Realized (I want to try it as a singleton fetch target. Multiples are bad, so maybe just 1 to fetch?)

    I'll make the changes and re-post, I think I'll play this Friday at FNM. If ruins fucks up my mana I'm going straight to Search for Azcanta until something better comes along.
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  2. #5342
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Given the creatures you play I would give a shot to
    +1 Snapcaster Mage
    +1 Riptide Laboratory
    +1/2 Cavern of Souls
    Do you think Riptide is better than Karakas? It has the same problem as academy ruins where it doesn't make colored mana. I haven't combined Karakas + Clique/Venser yet, but I know it's great synergy. Riptide seems good, but I don't know if I could afford that and Ruins. It would have to be one or the other, and ATM I'm leaning towards Ruins.
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  3. #5343

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Well Academy Ruins job is also to recur Crucible itself. The point is that Crucible, Ruins, Tolaria and EE all mutually protect and improve each other. Recurring Crucible is important since artifacts aren't very reliable these days due to stuff like KCommand, Decay or Trophy.

  4. #5344

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Do you think Riptide is better than Karakas? It has the same problem as academy ruins where it doesn't make colored mana. I haven't combined Karakas + Clique/Venser yet, but I know it's great synergy. Riptide seems good, but I don't know if I could afford that and Ruins. It would have to be one or the other, and ATM I'm leaning towards Ruins.
    Well, firstly, as you read on the other thread, im not so sure about the deck in general.

    Still, I can see recurring mainly snapcaster being good, and cavern would be pretty amazing mainly against miracle.
    By adding what I suggested and what other suggested you are mainly getting an advantage against slower decks, while having possibly a much worst outcome against delver/taxes.
    So the first thing would be consider your percentages against the meta, what do you feel you need more tools against?
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  5. #5345
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I don't see how Academy Ruins grants inevitability. I mean sure, you can recur [insert self-killing artifact], but Teferi does the whole never deck out thing on a card that does something by itself, this is generally less self-destructive when having RiP in the board.

    [I don't agree with the whole Crucible Tolaria aspect of @Mr.Safety's list, see previous posts] Advocating for another colorless land is not normal. Do you have some significantly different build? As is, the Academy suggestion conflicts with most to all iterations of UW Standstill in legacy and vintage which have been played to success. In the legacy format, you're inevitable for the most part once Teferi is double activating Azcanta, playing around decking with -3, and potentially sitting behind an emblem as well.

    Standstill has early game stabilization, the CA do nothing plan, 2/1 beats, and some kind of walker plan. Where does Academy add novel benefit that outweighs something like the oops I win b/c Mentor. Interested to see the other parts you're surrounding Academy with @Erdvermanpfa.

  6. #5346
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Well, firstly, as you read on the other thread, im not so sure about the deck in general.

    Still, I can see recurring mainly snapcaster being good, and cavern would be pretty amazing mainly against miracle.
    By adding what I suggested and what other suggested you are mainly getting an advantage against slower decks, while having possibly a much worst outcome against delver/taxes.
    So the first thing would be consider your percentages against the meta, what do you feel you need more tools against?
    It feels incredibly strong right now, I've tested a bunch against Depths and Burn. I have tier decks proxied up, so my next steps are to test against Grixis Delver, Grixis Control, Miracles, Death and Taxes, Show and Tell, and Eldrazi.

    I feel that as the game goes longer the deck can just crush, but it's getting past the early-mid game. I do agree that D&T and Delver likely need to be tested extensively.
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  7. #5347
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Lets say I cut the ETutor package and put it into the sideboard (2x ET, 1x EE, 1x DS, 1x CoW), that frees up 5 full slots. Without Crucible main I would likely drop the Wastelands as well.

    What would I put in there? The sense I'm getting is that this is too far off the beaten path, so I'm going to streamline it. These are the cards I will change:

    -2 Enlightened Tutor
    -1 Engineered Explosives
    -1 Detention Sphere
    -1 Crucible of Worlds
    -2 Wasteland

    +2 Search for Azcanta
    +1 Path to Exile (main)
    +1 fetchland
    +1 Mishra's Factory
    +2 ???????? (Council's Judgment, Teferi, Spell Snare, Ponder?)

    Sideboard would change drastically:

    2x Enlightened Tutor
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Ethersworn Canonist
    1x Rest in Peace
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Detention Sphere
    1x Humility
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Hydroblast (until I get Flusterstorm)
    2x Disenchant
    1x Blessed Alliance
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    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-21-2019 at 07:40 AM.
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  9. #5349
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Have been doing very well with this list locally with a pair of 3-1's and tempting someone else to build the deck!

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Island
    1 Karakas
    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Plains
    2 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Wasteland
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Counterspell
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Engineered Explosives
    4 Force of Will
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Monastery Mentor
    2 Ponder
    2 Search for Azcanta
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Standstill
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Vendilion Clique

    Sideboard:
    1 Blessed Alliance
    1 Celestial Purge
    1 Disenchant
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Fragmentize
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Supreme Verdict
    2 Surgical Extraction
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  10. #5350

    [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Just miracles with wastelands and worse removal. Seems worse.

  11. #5351
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Just miracles with wastelands and worse removal. Seems worse.
    Some issues exist with the build, dislike: the Volc, lack of wrath effects (looking at Crucible & EE stealing slots, to a lesser extent at Path), and there are questionable amounts of copies (Mentor, Cspell, Pierce, PW).

    Standstill has a set amount of value it can generate (assuming it creates a favorable board before casting), whereas Counterbalance can be fired off at any time [no setup], without any symmetrical backlash, and anywhere from zero to limitless value. Choosing 2x Path + 2x EE over say Terminus [x3] and cantrip is a fairly minor point. One of those cards is “UU: win the game,” so ofc it’s better. The question we test when we play Standstill is “how well does hard control function in legacy” - we already know Counterbalance-combo (miracles) is the best way to win with Tundra (and CB should be banned, but w/e). Pointing out that miracles is better than Standstill doesn’t change that you’re comparing control to a combo deck people mistakingly qualify as control.

  12. #5352
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Just miracles with wastelands and worse removal. Seems worse.
    Against a wide open field I would say it's a little worse, but against some decks it's better. I think the weak spot is Wasteland: if it's good, the deck is amazing. If Wasteland isn't good, the deck spins it's wheels. It's actually a very important angle of attack for this deck to be viable. Otherwise it's better to just play Miracles.
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  13. #5353
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Thats more of a bant deck.

  15. #5355

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Pointing out that miracles is better than Standstill doesn’t change that you’re comparing control to a combo deck people mistakingly qualify as control.
    Is this a joke that I'm out of the loop on, or what?

  16. #5356
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoOccisor View Post
    Is this a joke that I'm out of the loop on, or what?
    Gotta read the posts you're quoting from. UW Standstill is draw-go control, miracles is Counterbalance combo. The reason we don't see real control decks in legacy (and also don't really see Ux strict 2c decks) is because of the card Counterbalance. When a deck has a massive value engine (in this case CB), and that value engine is the only thing you really care about, it's a combo deck.

    There is a lesser point about JTMS not being a draw-go control card; generally only showing up in Counterbalance combo or the tap-out & jam archetype (this same deck has many names: Shardless, Grixis "control," Blade...). Draw-go generally cares more about card quantity (preferably while winning, ex. Teferi) than the idea of Brainstorm every turn to fix hand or digging towards some way to win (or combo off of CB or a miracle card). Given the thread we're in, it's important to point out that JTMS is pretty anemic under a Standstill. JTMS does however show up in this deck when one deviates from hard control (playing higher variance wincons than Mentor with more slots, ex. Myth Realized), and also in Vintage where 4 vs 5 mana can matter more (ex. Land + Lotus openers) and the ability to draw raw cards for (Ancestral, TC) adds incentive to dig towards a specific card.

  17. #5357
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Looks like we got a pretty good card with Teferi, Time Raveler. The main issues with the card are not being amazing in a vacuum (doesn't take over the game by itself), and combining that flaw with the need for ~2x slots (this is the main issue b/c it's not really allowing you to take something out).

    Anyways how the card actually reads:
    -opponent's can't crack Standstill on our EoT
    -on our turn -3, pick up Standstill + draw a card, play a thing, replay Standstill
    -cards in hand can't interact with Manlands [or Myth] at all on our turn, nor during the 5 steps of their combat
    -it's a lot easier to kill opposing Mentor...and swing a 2/2 Factory at their Jace knowing they are going to have to trash that 1/1 monk as well.

    This is in addition to the generic stuff: pick up SCM, instant-speed sorceries, and uncounterable spells. In terms of boring [borderline incorrect] use of this card, expect to see it show up in Blade and miracles as a generically sort-of good stuff flex card.
    -In Blade it's an expensive JVP, which is more a misuse of what is clearly a Reanimator-style tool. I would also argue that in Blade, the deck probably gets better by cutting SFM, playing Wraths and then wishing for a Batterskull with new Karn (doubles as a Chalice killer) - but ya basically still just a less-winning way to play Tundra than miracles.
    -In miracles they are running into the problem where this card, by itself, kind of does nothing to take over a game, and is meant to use A [Teferi] + B [CB] combo to change all sorcery cantrips into Dismiss. Now most miracles players will still blow through sorcery-speed cantrips proactively for no extra Dismiss value...but the more suspect finding is that these Teferi slots are coming from cutting down CB copies...so it's a little bit self-defeating.

    Of note is rule 304.5: If text states that a player may do something “any time they could cast an instant,” it means only that the player must have priority. The player doesn’t need to have an instant they could cast. Effects that would preclude that player from casting a spell or casting an instant don’t affect the player’s capability to perform that action (unless the action is actually casting a spell or casting an instant).
    -Note how Infernal Tutor, hold priority, crack LED is still legal under new Teferi.

    -----

    In terms of other UW Standstill stuff, Karn, the Great Creator is basically a strict upgrade to Crucible (which will now live in the SB). Neat applications include +1 un-assemble an equip, and +1 it's now a Plow/Wrath target, and the aforementioned +1 Chalice killing. As cool as this is, the card is 4cmc, and unlike vintage there is no Mana Drain. So unless you're a holdout still playing Crucible, I don't think Karn will find a home here...but it turns off Vial so you definitely get some style points. So like if you have a good LGS that sells alcohol, you definitely get to tap the guy next to you and tell him/her to "hold my beer," then roll your sleeves up, and really stick it to DnT [results may vary].

    Anyways I'm still working out the cuts to give new Teferi a try, but it's reaching a point where going above 1 slot main is tough to justify (have the other 1x in SB). Cutting down to 1x Mentor is about the only way I can see to get the 2nd one maindeck. The real issue is every new Teferi you add kinda ends up being -1 card that either kills or overruns a TNN (these lost slots also generally helped vs Burn). I'll try and play tomorrow and write up some thoughts.

  18. #5358

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Have you thought about Blast Zone ? Playing strong removal under Standstill is not common. You can even free yourself from your own Standstill if it is needed. It can be replayed with Crucible of Worlds obviously and cannot be counterspelled unless opponent use Stifle effect. Not strictly better than Explosives, that can destroy Chalice and tokens though.

    What if opponent plays their own Blast Zone ? Nimble Obstructionist already exists but it is not something to be worried about, I think, because who plays Blast Zone ?

  19. #5359
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    @Kagehisa Blast Zone is one of those cards that looks good primarily because it can kill Counterbalance, but it’s 4 mana (plus a turn before of tapping down to go to x=2) and -1 land drop. Once you add in the bit about being unable to kill Chalice, Zone looks more suspect. So how I see this playing out is miracles goes turn 2 CB, then we lose 2 turns of all our mana, and while CB dies we’re now looking at Mentor or Jace.

    This is where new Teferi makes more sense b/c it can be played before a CB, so miracles either has to discard a piece of countermagic immediately (i.e. can’t be used to help resolve CB) or give us free reign with unopposed countermagic that no longer needs to hit CB at all (b/c you just -3 to get it off table). Add to this that unlike Blast Zone it can also help vs Chalice, and it’s really hard to justify settling on Zone.

    That assessment changes a little bit if the Landstill build includes Crucible; but that Crucible would be living in the board with Karn main...so even here you can have 1 untutorable Zone main, or more likely have the EE as a wish target. It’s probably fine to have the Zone main there, but I think with access to EE you might be better off running a Desert as long as DRS is banned. Zone is definitely more powerful, but that substantial negative tempo probably means we need to look at the card as being more closely related to Dust Bowl in terms of playability.

    As to your other question, I play Wasteland that enemy Zone isn’t getting to x=2 and there’s no aggressive blue deck that can reliably detonate it. If they’re playing Zone in a non-blue shell then our white cards are resolving.

  20. #5360
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    3-1 tonight, basically same list as I've posted in -1 Blessed Alliance, +1 New Teferi maindeck. -1 Serenity, +1 New Teferi SB.

    Lands (22)
    Island x3
    Plains x2
    Tundra x2
    Fetch (blue) x8
    Wasteland x3
    Factory x3
    Karakas x1

    Creatures (5)
    SCM x3
    Mentor x2

    Spells (32)
    Brainstorm x4
    FoW x4
    Portent x4
    StP x4
    Standstill x4
    Terminus x3
    Counterspell x3
    Search for Azcanta x2
    Teferi, Hero of Dominaria x2
    New Teferi x1
    Noxious Revival x1
    Council's Judgement x1

    SB:
    Surgical x1
    Spiritual Focus x1
    Disenchant x2
    C. Priest x2
    Council's Judgement x1
    Canonist x1
    New Teferi x1
    E. Tutor x1
    RiP x1
    Powder Keg x1
    B2B x1
    Humility x1
    Sacred Ground x1

    -R1 vs Splinter Twin (2-0) Chalice and Moon are cards I can let resolve, counter the business spells and let SCM/Standstill and Big Teferi take over. In game 2 I killed 4 Blood Moons with Teferi ult so that was fun.
    -R2 vs UB Shadow (2-0) Opponent Wastelands fail to steal game 1. I Waste them out of the game on turn 2 of game 2. This is a normal result for any deck with SCM/Plow; it really doesn't matter what the other 52 cards in your deck are called.
    -R3 vs DnT (0-2) Able to avoid any mana issues both games but unable to find business spells soon enough.
    -R4 vs Omnisneak (2-1) Opponent's first night of legacy, he's using UR-Shocks (which really doesn't impact how the game goes), but he has 2 Cunning Wish without a wincon wishboard. Nothing too much of note in how the matches went, but I did have both Teferi in play one game and had option (under Moon) to tap Plains EoT -> Teferi trigger untap -> get 2nd white and instant speed CJ, so that was fun.

    Blood Moon kills: 5

    Abnormal matchups (except DnT), but New Teferi kept coming in postboard vs all not-DnT opponents. Sadly I did not get to do the 'pick up Standstill, draw a card, cast a threat, replay Standstill, pass' line with New Teferi. I'm still skeptical about the viability of 2x maindeck.

    Edit: also important to note, the round 4 opponent got to experience Humility and layers on his first night of legacy.
    Last edited by Fox; 05-08-2019 at 09:23 AM.

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