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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #41
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mental View Post
    Wrath IS bad against non-jank aggro, and it it's bad against everything else. A smart Goblins player will NEVER overextended into WoG, so at most WoG will buy you 2-3 turns. What you need to deal with Goblins is Humility, Counterspells, GOYF, and Stifle. Wrath is too expensive for a Pyroclasm.
    I don't agree with your assessment of WoG at all. I still rocks against Goblins because more than likely you will 3 for 1 them or possibly more. Goblins would not be able to beat you while attacking with a Mogg Fanatic for the whole game. It is a lot easier to cast than Deed in 4c.

    Against thresh, it takes out Goose. Pretty important IMO because I hate trading my Factories with them.

    And I really hate the arguement that DoJ is easy to answer. Sure, all those cards stop it but that is a dumb arguement. No one has Pyroclasm MD. Wrath is mostly played in Landstill and DoJ rocks in that MU. Fire/Ice... I'll go ahead and make a list for Hoofprints.

    Force of Will
    Counterspell
    Stifle
    Spell Snare
    Mana Leak
    Humility
    Krosan Grip
    Deed
    Disenchant
    Tranquility
    Creature Removal
    Absolver Thrull

    The list goes on. More people wil side in Krosan Grip against Landstill than Pyroclasm. If you play smart with DoJ and have some counterbackup, you should win the game in 2 turns. Hoofprints is slow. I think it is awesome, but I would still play DoJ over it anyday.

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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I haven't been playing much lately (AP classes, I test when I can)... I know my MUs very well however. Wrath is good against goblins, although you cannot hit vial, your real goal is to stall into humility, once it sticks, that is when you really win...

    I have a tourney coming up, and I want your guy's opinions on how to modify my list...

    Here is the meta I expect:

    2 landstill (BHWW)
    2 agro-loam
    2 survival (proabably ATS... I know right?!)
    4-6 black based agro (BWG, deadguy, eva green)
    3-4 affinity
    5-6 goblins
    2 SI
    3 threshold (varying splashes)
    somewhere between 5-10 random homemade decks...


    As you can imagine, the meta is kinda random...

    I am mainly looking for suggestions for the board and a few utility slots (my list is Der's exact list except without a 3rd explosives and 3rd plains).

    I am considering maybe playing something else for the event, as I would love to have Disk in my build... Any suggestions/ideas for the board/open slots would be appreciated.
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak. View Post
    I don't agree with your assessment of WoG at all. I still rocks against Goblins because more than likely you will 3 for 1 them or possibly more. Goblins would not be able to beat you while attacking with a Mogg Fanatic for the whole game. It is a lot easier to cast than Deed in 4c.

    Against thresh, it takes out Goose. Pretty important IMO because I hate trading my Factories with them.

    And I really hate the arguement that DoJ is easy to answer. Sure, all those cards stop it but that is a dumb arguement. No one has Pyroclasm MD. Wrath is mostly played in Landstill and DoJ rocks in that MU. Fire/Ice... I'll go ahead and make a list for Hoofprints.

    Force of Will
    Counterspell
    Stifle
    Spell Snare
    Mana Leak
    Humility
    Krosan Grip
    Deed
    Disenchant
    Tranquility
    Creature Removal
    Absolver Thrull

    The list goes on. More people wil side in Krosan Grip against Landstill than Pyroclasm. If you play smart with DoJ and have some counterbackup, you should win the game in 2 turns. Hoofprints is slow. I think it is awesome, but I would still play DoJ over it anyday.
    I admit that both are vulnerable, I just feel that Hoofprints does more early on than DoJ does.

    You are overestimating WoG. Paying 4 Mana to kill a 1 Drop is NOT a good trade. Play 4 EE if you're that worried about Goose. 4 Mana for a 3 for 1 against Goblins is good, sure, but it doesn't do anything to shut off the engine that really makes them win -- Ringleader.

  4. #44
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mental View Post
    I admit that both are vulnerable, I just feel that Hoofprints does more early on than DoJ does.

    You are overestimating WoG. Paying 4 Mana to kill a 1 Drop is NOT a good trade. Play 4 EE if you're that worried about Goose. 4 Mana for a 3 for 1 against Goblins is good, sure, but it doesn't do anything to shut off the engine that really makes them win -- Ringleader.
    EE is still 3 mana. EE is a great card and I am not saying you should cut it, but they play diferent roles. EE takes care of a lot of things like CB, Aether Vial, and hits a ton of creatures, but you shouldn't think of it as a sweeper. Wrath and EE are very different.

    Those 3 goblins will still kill you and EE will most likely go 1 for 1 with a goblin. You are saying how Wrath is weak, but what do you put in its place? It fills the must needed role against aggro and still beats goblins. Make that 3 for 1 trade and then counter or stifle Ringleader.

    All I see you do is say that goblins are good and Wrath can't beat them. That is not right. It stalls them like it should, just like Humility or EE can. I think you underestimae it and obviously don't know how to play with it.

  5. #45
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak. View Post
    EE is still 3 mana. EE is a great card and I am not saying you should cut it, but they play diferent roles. EE takes care of a lot of things like CB, Aether Vial, and hits a ton of creatures, but you shouldn't think of it as a sweeper. Wrath and EE are very different.

    Those 3 goblins will still kill you and EE will most likely go 1 for 1 with a goblin. You are saying how Wrath is weak, but what do you put in its place? It fills the must needed role against aggro and still beats goblins. Make that 3 for 1 trade and then counter or stifle Ringleader.

    All I see you do is say that goblins are good and Wrath can't beat them. That is not right. It stalls them like it should, just like Humility or EE can. I think you underestimae it and obviously don't know how to play with it.
    Excellent post.

    Engineered Explosives is a ultra versatile card. Against Goblins, if use it just to deal with Aether Vial most of the time since Aether Vial is the card I am afraid of the most.
    of you can deal with Aether Vial, the chances that you can abuse Standstill to stall the game a littlebit to buy youself some time (or at least CA if the Goblin player breakes it right after you played it, which is actually clever) to get Wrath of God online (which IS a sweeper) or Wish -> E.Tutor -> Humility.

    Even if the Goblin player doesn't overextends it's not bad at all since it makes him slightly more vulnerable to Mishra and sportemoval.

    If you play UWb Cunning Landstill well against Goblins, it's easy to get into a dominant position (which wins you the game in the end). Game 2 you also have the possibility to hardlock the Goblinman by resolving Humility + Engineered Plague. No matter which card you resolve first, both of them can buy you a lot of time.

    I played against Goblins on our Legacyevent this month, I really think this Landstill variant has got the best ways to deal with Goblins without sucking against the rest of the meta. I still think UR Landstill has got the most favourable matchup against Goblins, but I think it's not really competitive in the current meta.
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  6. #46
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    In Cunning Landstill, if you run Red instead of Green, what are your wish targets?

    -Price of Progress

    Which would be bomb against 43 Land and Aggro Loam.

    -Hide // Seek

    IMO, better than Disenchant. Very versatile and can be played earlier than Extirpate.

    -Odds // Ends

    A little clunky... Odds is amazing for counter wars and draw spells. Ends would be used sometimes, but no very often. IMO, better than wasting an EE on a couple Geese.

    - Firestorm

    A card used widely in T1 Tog decks. Kills weenies... not sure you want to discard 5 cards to kill a Goyf.

    - Mogg Salavage/Rack and Ruin

    General utility...

    - Sirocco

    A bomb in the mirror... unfortunately, Extirpate may very well still be better.

    - 2-3 REB effects

    Helps against other Blue decks. Good against Breakfast.

    This is also a debate to see which color is a better 4th color, Green or Red.
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  7. #47
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    WTF? A 4th Color? In UWb Cunning Landstill is no 4th color needed, the manabase will become really shitty and there is no need for some red or green SB Spells. Theres no problem you cannot handle with 3 colors.

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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ch@os View Post
    WTF? A 4th Color? In UWb Cunning Landstill is no 4th color needed, the manabase will become really shitty and there is no need for some red or green SB Spells. Theres no problem you cannot handle with 3 colors.
    Funny... thing is, Cunning Landstill has always ran 4 colors. Dont you ever see the mana base konsultant played way back when? Well, my suggestion here is, instead of G (which has Savannah and Tropical Island), I suggest Red in it's place (with Volcanic Island and Plateau instead) to play Price of Progress in the board.
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti~American4621 View Post
    Funny... thing is, Cunning Landstill has always ran 4 colors. Dont you ever see the mana base konsultant played way back when?
    For reference, here's the list he's talking about.

    Now, I don't think that any splash colour for only Cunning Wish targets is needed:
    • The listed options do nothing that already existing options can't do too:
      • Hide/Seek seems like the best option mentioned because of the double Extirpate/Disenchant effect but I still think that its not needed because you can run a better Disenchant effect (Return to Dust makes card advantage and prevents the opponent drawing/cantriping/tutoring back into his stuff)
        and because the Extirpate effect is no-where near as strong as the real card which you can already play.
      • Sirroco is just unneeded as you'd rather go for an Extirpate against control anyway.
      • Price of Progress is... narrow tech at best because against anything that is not the non-existent 43lands.deck, you will inflict yourself way more damage than you'll deal to your opponent. Also, against 43lands you already have some tools in the wishboard: you can go for an Extirpate to deal with their recursion engine and then for an Enlightened Tutor [for Crucible of Worlds] to deal with their manlands.
      • Odds/Ends is pretty bad in my book: unreliable and clunky as you stated - it will just clog your wishboard and you'll only rarely wish for it.
      • Firestorm: pretty slow against Empty the Warrens/Goblins - if you have stabilized (i.e. reached the mana for Cunning Wish into stuff) against the later, you'd rather go for Enlightened Tutor [for Humility]; against the former, Firestorm is an option but more and more combo decks are letting go of Empty the Warrens and even if you happen to face it, you can always wish for Enlightened Tutor [for Engineered Explosives] to get out of the situation.
    • On top of that, you also don't want to destabilize your manabase for more narrow and unneeded wishboard cards: running as many basics as possible is true tech: being able to dodge Wastelands and Blood Moons/Back to Basics is pretty good especially since those cards are played to make the Landstill matchup better.
    • If all, I'd splash green on top of UWb - to support Pernicious Deeds in metas where it is better than Wrath of God (i.e. where there's not a lot of aggro and more random stuff like Affinity or Stax)... then you'd have this kind of list though.
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  10. #50
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Cunning Landstill is already good enough with 3 colors.

    Now that we have access to Wheel of Sun and moon, we could MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE even cut black from the entire deck. Wheel of Sun and Moon fixes quite every problem UWb landstill has got:

    Stupid recursion engines (Witness-Volrath's Stronghold), Loam Engines (43Land, Aggro Loam) and is - against ichorid - the 2nd Turn Leyline for WW, which is easy to fulfill when we play a better, consistent, 2colored manabase.

    But I still can't imagine whether it is smart to cut Black since Extirpates and Engineered Plagues are very versatile. Even Slaughter Pact is good in some scenarios, but they almost never happen, because they are too utopic (I'm thinking of the Dragonstompy matchup).

    But here are the latest records of UWb Landstill:

    http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...ightly+04%2F08

    http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...n+-+April+2008

    1st Place, twice.
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  11. #51
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Adan View Post
    Now that we have access to Wheel of Sun and moon, we could MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE even cut black from the entire deck.
    Why would you ever run Wheel of Sun and Moon over Tormod's Crypt?

    Sure if they have back up Loams (or a second Squee in Survival), you need another Tormod's Crypt, but that shouldn't be a huge issue. Not to mention if you've got Academy Ruins, you shut down graveyard strategies permanently, and have a faster response with the 0cc of Crypt (necessary against Ichorid). Against Volrath's Stronghold, you should already have an alright match between Swords RFGing their guys, Crucible + Factory chumping until you find Swords, and Wasteland (if you run it).

    I was under the impression that the entire reason for running Extirpate over Tormod's was so you could Cunning Wish for it. Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't solve this dilemma, and is an expensive spell (2 colored mana, neither of which can be paid for by a Basic Island).

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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    Why would you ever run Wheel of Sun and Moon over Tormod's Crypt?

    Sure if they have back up Loams (or a second Squee in Survival), you need another Tormod's Crypt, but that shouldn't be a huge issue. Not to mention if you've got Academy Ruins, you shut down graveyard strategies permanently, and have a faster response with the 0cc of Crypt (necessary against Ichorid). Against Volrath's Stronghold, you should already have an alright match between Swords RFGing their guys, Crucible + Factory chumping until you find Swords, and Wasteland (if you run it).

    I was under the impression that the entire reason for running Extirpate over Tormod's was so you could Cunning Wish for it. Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't solve this dilemma, and is an expensive spell (2 colored mana, neither of which can be paid for by a Basic Island).
    Because Wheel of Sun and Moon can't be needled or shut down by Chalice 0 and that you can't pay WW when you are already playing 2 Plains (3 in Clemens new list), it's a lie that you can't drop it 2nd Turn consequently.

    And as I already stated, Wheel of Sun and Moon is simply Leyline of the Void for WW, there's a huge difference between Ley-Line and Tormod's Crypt.

    Tormod's Crypt doesn't prevent topdecking. With Wheel on the board, the opponent won't get the possibility to start his engine or restore it.

    Loam engines are eventually broken by Wheel, and it's quite useful against Ichorid. Tormod's Crypt recursion isn't good since it is carddisadvantage and slow as hell, you are always skipping 1 turn if you recurr it.

    And that "you have StoP and blablah" argument is theoretically right, but I lost against such a recursion engine because i didn't draw any of my 6 remaining outs, so I'm also doubting that part of theory right now.
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    The strongest point of Wheel of Sun and Moon is that it makes the Aggro Loam matchup (something like the worst matchup you can face) better because it stops their Card Advantage engine as well as their creatures (it's a replacement effect so that Countryside Crusher doesn't get counters) - it will never be able to fully replace Extirpate though because it is way to versatile and too good in too many matchups (Control Mirrors, Threshold, Survival, Combo etc.).
    It is definitely better than Tormod's Crypt though - if only for being a continuous effect and for being better against Life from the Loam (they can just cycle-dredge in response to the Crypt activation to render Crypt near to useless turning it into only a small speed bumb).

    I currently have no clue though how to fit it into the sideboard.
    For reference, this is my current board:

    /// Sideboard (15 cards)
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Engineered Plague
    3 Extirpate
    1 Slaughter Pact
    1 Pulse of the Fields
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Return to Dust

    I could see cutting an Extirpate (somewhat same goal as the Wheel), the Slaugher Pact (underwhelming - until you need it) and an Engineered Plague (Goblins isn't that bad a matchup, still these are very nice because of flexibility) for three Wheel of Sun and Moon but I don't know if that will hurt any matchups too badly - especially cutting down on Extirpate (most boarded in card) seems like a bad idea.

    Also, it's nice to see people picking up the deck and doing well with it!
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I suppose if you guys see that much Life from the Loam, then Wheel could be better. However, none of the arguments provided convince me that it's superior in the Ichorid match up, (where having a turn 1 drop as opposed to a turn 2 drop is all the difference in the world, considering you're likely to be on the draw in game 3 if you even win game 2). I've never been comfortable giving a combo deck an extra turn.

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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    I've never been comfortable giving a combo deck an extra turn.
    This is actually not relevant at all because Ichorid will always slow roll against you going for the DDD-route (Draw, Discard, Dredge) as it can't afford to give you multiple Time-Walks if you happen to hold a Force of Will for their discard outlet so that they'll have to draw back up to 8 cards in order to start doing stuff again.
    Also, I'm certainly not thinking about completely removing Extirpate for Wheel of Sun and Moon because, as stated, Extirpate is too versatile to be completely cut - just see it as a complement: normally you'd have 3-4 Extirpates, after Shadowmoor, you'll have 2-3 Extirpates and more hate in the form of Wheel of Sun and Moon making you actually have more threats against Ichorid than before.
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    I cant ever see Extirpates being cut from this deck. Extirpates is your MVP in control match-ups and they take care of troublesome threats after you deal with the first copy, such as Armageddon, Goyfs, and such...
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund View Post
    This is actually not relevant at all because Ichorid will always slow roll against you going for the DDD-route (Draw, Discard, Dredge) as it can't afford to give you multiple Time-Walks
    Always is a strong word, I can't tell you the number of time's I've been playing against Ichorid, and they have an opening hand along the lines of LED, City of Brass, Dredge card, Putrid Imp or Putrid Imp, Breakthrough, Dredge card, Gemstone Mine or LED, LED, Cephalid Colesium, Dredge card, Deep Analysis. Granted those are the hands that stick out, and I'm sure I remember getting slow-rolled less, but that doesn't change the fact that with 12 to 13 discard outlets they have reasonable chances of getting 2 in their opening hand and softening the blow of Force of Will. Additionally, if they simply play the odds that you don't have Force + a blue card in your opener, they're resolving their first turn discard outlet over 60% of the time (obviously, I'd want 50 or so test games in this match up to try and determine how often they win after resolving their first turn discard outlet before making any claims about whether or not playing the odds of your opponent not having a Force of Will is the correct play for the Ichorid player to make, it would have to be about 90% of the time, which seems like a stretch). So the better the player, the better read they'll have on your Force of Will and slow roll it when they know they need safety, and the more likely they'll accurately call your bluff on FoW and attempt to get their engine rolling before you find your hate cards. While I think Wheel is a good card, I'm not convinced it's good enough to hands down replace Tormod's Crypt as the right card 100% of the time. Obviously in a metagame full of Loam decks, I think your argument for Wheel is valid, and makes it in over Crypt. But I think time, testing, and tournament reports will tell if Wheel is the correct hate card against Ichorid.

  18. #58

    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quick question: has anyone thought of Kor Haven in a largely white/blue Landstill deck? It seems like the perfect way to neutralize a Tarmogoyf under Standstill and can hold the line until you find Swords. You'd only want one or two...the former if you use Tolaria West.

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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Quick question: has anyone thought of Kor Haven in a largely white/blue Landstill deck? It seems like the perfect way to neutralize a Tarmogoyf under Standstill and can hold the line until you find Swords. You'd only want one or two...the former if you use Tolaria West.
    To tell the truth, if we want a card like Kor Haven, we'd probably play Kjeldoran Outpost. It accomplishes the same thing Kor Haven does for the price of one land, but the output is that you can play it aggressively later as the game progresses. It also produces White which is awesome.
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    Re: [DtB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak. View Post
    EE is still 3 mana. EE is a great card and I am not saying you should cut it, but they play diferent roles. EE takes care of a lot of things like CB, Aether Vial, and hits a ton of creatures, but you shouldn't think of it as a sweeper. Wrath and EE are very different.

    Those 3 goblins will still kill you and EE will most likely go 1 for 1 with a goblin. You are saying how Wrath is weak, but what do you put in its place? It fills the must needed role against aggro and still beats goblins. Make that 3 for 1 trade and then counter or stifle Ringleader.

    All I see you do is say that goblins are good and Wrath can't beat them. That is not right. It stalls them like it should, just like Humility or EE can. I think you underestimae it and obviously don't know how to play with it.
    You have a point, and you're right that I haven't put very much time into testing WoG. However, what you've said doesn't change the fact that it's only decent in one MU and even there isn't devastating. However, I have to agree that if you're worried about Goblins a better alternative does not yet exist.

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