Except moat stymies a big part of your win conditions...factories.
Also, moat doesn't stop seige-gang, or any CIP abilities. I'm not saying moat isn't a good card, but I think humility is the correct card.
I was thinking about running it in my sideboard for ichorid/threshold... boarding it in against anything else would be retarded.
I still have the 3 plagues in the board for gobbos, and only 2 moats as additional hosers for those special cases.
Your right but then again people run general hate all of the time like wastelands, pithing needles, and etc. However, I don't really seem to have any problems running moat in landstill.
Technically I don't think humility is the standard choice considering there are seemingly countless ways you can build a optimal landstill deck in the right field. In fact, humility and moat can even come down to a metagame call.
4x MMage
3x E. Plague
1x BEB
3x Extirpate
1x Return to Dust
1x Slaughter Pact
1x E. Tutor
1x Pulse of the Fields
That's the board. I can see taking out maybe the slaughter pact...but I think I'd want to replace it with extirpate...or wheel of s&m. Not sure what else could come out.
Does the ichorid matchup usually go to turn 4 so you can cast moat? Or would WoS&M be better?...coming down on turn 2?
Moat could be pretty hot against Loam though...but humility works too.
Slaughter Pact wins 1 Game per tournamet for me. I wouldn´t cut it.
With swords, EE, and force; I am usualy able to stall my ichorid opponent for a couple turns (swords Moeba/ichorid... EE tokens for a turn, force enabler like LED/breakthrough)... This is how you stall when they are trying to go for the quick kill... however, they usually try to slow roll me and I usually can get extirpate... I think the wheel would also be good, I may even resort to running crypt, as we can recur it and tutor it. It is also very easy on the main board.
wheel would be pretty good for ur build freak but will u be able to consistanly hit the wheel even though u cannot tutor for and have to rely on tripping for it and hopping that they cannot win in time. My opinion keep it the same FOW DD if it comes to that and EE the board.
Team Funk: The philosopher of the 70's.
Quote of the week: List of Power: God is a 10. Humans are 7's. Monkeys are 6's. Koalas are 8's they are telekenetic and control the weather.
A dreamcatcher works, if your dream is to be gay.
-- Demetri Martin
I have a tourney coming up soon. What decks should I be getting the most practice against using DerF's UWb list? ie: tough/numerous Or maybe decks not to focus too much time on because it's not difficult or numerous?
Maybe a gauntlet suggestion? Hopefully with decklist suggestions? (like go to blah, blah forum and use blah's list for testing the blah matchup)
Thanks guys. I'm just starting to get a little nervous.
-TG
I just made this landstill deck with the use of tutors
Creatures
1x Eternal Dragon
Other
4x Force of will
4x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Crucible Of Worlds
2x Standstill
3x Sensi's Divining top
3x Counterbalance
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords To Plowshares
2x Decree of Justice
1x Seal of Cleansing
2x Wrath of God
Lands
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
5x Islands
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
Side Board
3x Pulse of the fields
2x Blue elemental blast
2x Vedalken Shackles
1x Pithing Needle
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Rule of law
1x Circle of protection green
1x Circle of protection Red
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Runed Halo
I was thinking of maybe adding mindslaver? for use with academy ruins and I could tutor for it.
You made nothing, its the well known "moatility" list without Moat.
For example ~ :
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Moat
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
The worst thing you can do for yourself is be nervous going into the tournament... you will need to keep your cool when playing the deck, and you will have to patient.
I wouldn't test any trouble MUs, unless you have never played against them before (the toughest MUs probably being ichorid, and agro-loam)... you pack LftL hate however, in the form of extirpate, and it is also quite good against ichorid as well.
The MUs you should not spend any time on : goblins, affinity, goyf sligh, threshold, other landstils.... these are the very positive MUs, that all boil down to your basic understandings of the deck.
The difficult MUs include eva green (I have a 3-3 game record against t in tournament play), and funkbrewesque decks... gaddock teeg is a beast against this deck, and a first turn hypnotic specter is devastating without a swords to plowshares.
These are just tough MUs, but are still very winnable, against eva, you will just have to save your draw until later in the game (after they have ran out of gas), against Gaddock teeg, you will want to resolve an explosives for 2 prior, as he effectively shuts down all your removal save swords t plowshares.
Just keep your cool, play smart, and you will do just fine, this deck has no autolosses.
I'm probably mostly nervous because I haven't tested enough...partly because there are so many decks, and I don't really want to put them all together. Your reply helps greatly in this regard.
Is there a good ichorid and aggro-loam list you'd suggest? I've never played vs. ichorid, and only a few times vs. blood moon loam. You don't need to copy the decklists, just tell me what post # in the appropriate thread...or link?
I've actually spent the most time on goblins and thresh, lol. Oops. I'm not sure what makes other landstills a very positive matchup...could you explain?
Do you have decklists to refer me to for testing eva, and funkbrew?
Thanks,
-TG
Well, you simply have a stronger late game against opposing landstill decks... you have dragon (without swords he is deadly), you have decree (they cannot afford to play their standstills mid-late game now), and you have extirpate (hitting their mandlands/gas/countermagic/removal can swing the game in your favor)...
This is a MU that depends heavily on playskill, however, I have never lost to american landstill with this build:
Landstill by Clemens Wolff
lands//25
3 plains
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
4 mishra's factory
creatures//1
1 eternal dragon
spells//34
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 cunning wish
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds
2 humility
2 decree of justice
sideboard//
1 enlightened tutor
1 slaughter pact
1 return to dust
1 pulse of the fields
3 extirpate
3 engineered plague
3 meddling mage
2 moat
--------------------------
Here is funkbrew:
// Lands
1 - Forest
1 - Plains
1 - Swamp
1 – Polluted Delta
4 - Windswept Heath
4 - Bayou
4 - Scrubland
2 - Savannah
2 - Nantuko Monastery
1 - Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 - Volrath's Stronghold
// Creatures
4 - Dark Confidant
2 - River Boa
2 - Mire Boa
4 - Spectral Lynx
4 - Tarmogoyf
3 – Gaddock Teeg
// Spells
3 - Pernicious Deed
3 - Glittering Wish
3 - Vindicate
3 - Duress
4 - Swords to Plowshares
4 - Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 3 - Engineered Plague
SB: 4 - Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 - Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 - Vindicate
SB: 1 – Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 - Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 - Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 - Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 - Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 - Castigate
-----------------------------------
Eva:
4 tarmogoyf
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 seal of primordium
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
6 swamp
board:
4 choke
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
3 umezawa's jitte
I play that same mainboard and -2 moat, +1 MMage, +1 Hydroblast in board. DerF's list.
I tested the 2 matchups for the decklists you gave me. Seems like a lot of it revolves around crucible and standstill. They tend to peter-out if you can keep playing lands early. If not...it's pretty rough. It feels like we should be favored though overall.
I tested a different UBg Landstill list against an aggro-loam list...it was pretty rough. I feel like WoS&M would wreck them though...and maybe ichorid too? I need a list for the Ich. matchup though. You don't need to copy the decklists, just tell me what post # in the appropriate thread...or link? Have you tried WoS&M yet? Seems like it could improve our bad matchups by a lot. I'll be happy to test it playing against myself, but I need to know how boarding would go for loam and ich (with lists)...and for the UWb landstill...maybe taking out -1 s. pact, -2 pate? for +3 Wheel??? Or if you can suggest something better?
Thanks,
-TG
Last edited by TopGun; 05-23-2008 at 08:35 AM.
The moats are for the ichorid MU, and help stall against a lot of other decks... BEB is dead in my meta, as only 1 Dstompy guy plays here, and goblins only shows up in small numbers.
A resolved gaddock teeg is quite devastating to Derf's list (the one I play), and my teammate always gets him within the first couple turns (or a wish), which could change the MU numbers quite a bit (we only played like 10 games outside of tournament play, 7 of which he got teeg relatively early).
I hardly ever see quick combo here (like belcher/SI), so mage is hardly ever boarded in, hence the small cut to a 3 of... I never run BEB any more, there is just no reason to here.
Wheel is very good against agro loam and ichorid, however I wouldn't add more than a few of them in the board, as the board is so tight as it is, and ichorid already helps so much in those matchups already.
Yesterday I won a 39 player tournament with Uwb Cunning LS.
Here is a short report but first, the decklist:
// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [A] Island (2)
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [TE] Humility
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [LOR] Jace Beleren
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [OV] Hydroblast
Round 1 Dragonstompy
G1: He takes 2 mulligans and start with a Jitte on Turn 1. Then the game goes draw-go for about 5 turns and after I played Humility he scooped.
SB: Nothing
G2: Again he starts with Jitte on turn 1 , followed by a Needle and a Blood Moon which I force. Then again he is unable to play any relevant threat(maybe because there aren´t any...) and I beat him fast with 3 factories.
Round 2 MonoU feat. Painterservant
G1: I counter a Grindstone and than tap 4 mana to cast Humility but he has the Counterspell. In his turn he gets a Back to Basics in play which totaly destroyed my manabase and then he mills me with 1 Grindstone... :(
+4 M.Mages +2 Extirpates - 3 Wrath -1 C.Wish -1 Decree - 1Stop
G2: I play turn
2 Meddling Mage, turn 3 Meddling Mage and turn 4 Meddling mage and Standstill. GG.
G3: He is a little bit flooded at the end and I extirpate him twice while my 2 Mages goes to the dome.
Round 3 RG Beatz
G1: He doesn´t do many relevant things and only burns me down to 3. Now his hand is Empty and I still have 2 Counterspells left after I had to counter 2 Price of Progresses. With this advantage I manage it to kill him fast with my factories.
+4 M.Mages +3 Extirpates -3 Wrath -2 Humility - 1 Jace -1 Decree
G2: Almost the same as game 1 but now he has Vortex and 2 Prices and I´m unable to draw a C.Wish.
G3: Long story short, I get a C.wish for Pulse and some Mages so I can seal the deal.
Round 4 Ichorid
G1: No Chance against turn 3 kill.
+4 Mages +3 Extirpates + 3 E.Plague - 3 Wrath -3 C.Wish -4 Swords to Plowshares
G2: I start like usual with good ol` land go. He plays Coliseum->Breakthrough and discards some good cards but only 2 Imps as Dredger. I Extirpate them, play a M.Mage on Therapy. Then I draw 6 lands in a row and he can recover somehow. Then finally I get a brainstorm which gives me another Extirpate and Explosives. Explosives is impressive with A.RUins and so he scoopes his cards up. He offers me a draw but I want all or nothin and we went to
G3: He says that he wants to gamble and just ends his turn without a play. I have a good hand with Force, Extirpate and Meddling Mage. Underground Sea go. He topdecks City of Brass and plays Led, Breakthrough_>Resp Sacc LED. I Extirpate his Stinkweeds again so that he has only 1 Thug to Dredge. I dredges some nonrelevant cards and has a shitty GY and zero handcards left. I draw another Extirpate for his Thug and factories+M.Mage kills him really fast.
Round 5 Ugb Thresh
We make an ID and decide to play who can pick first. I win 2-0 as expected and can pick a Mint Volcanic Island.
So my final record was 4-0-1 and I had a lot of fun because I could play outside where the air was really nice. Since my english isn´t the best I hope you´ll understand what I wrote and maybe pick up this crazy deck and beat some bad matchups with it ;)
PS: Thanks to Clemens for building the best deck ever
-NQN-
Hi, I was the Ichorid Pilot. As I told you, I hate it to play against this deck. If I gamble and try the explosive start with LED you'll probably have the Force or at least I have to expect that. If I try to slowroll you with EoT Discard you'll have enough time to Wish --> Extirpate. Postboard it isn't better as you have access to 10 sideboard cards :/
An idea to the SB though: Maybe cut Plagues for Wheel of Sun and Moon? Wheel rapes pretty much Ichorid, some Servant combos and Loam, and as you told me, you don't want to face Ichorid and Loam seems to be not a great matchup too. Thoughts?
Grats for the finish.
How was he? I'm still very sceptical of adding him, especially if you're cutting a DoJ for him... Decree is just one of your finest tools in so many matchups.
I've actually even recently moved up to 3 copies main because they're just that good and help a great deal to stabilize in the mid- to early lategame where they act as a 'keep winning' card. Having multiple copies of Decree also helps to end the game much quicker against decks which otherwise could recover during the time you give them. Not to say that they are the way better wincondition than Factory.
Other random bonuses of playing more DoJs: better control matchup, better tools to just be able to ignore a Blood Moon (more Winconditions that aren't affected by it), better matchup against non-swarm aggro (where DoJ acts as a Timewalk that gets you from the midgame right into the lategame by producing 1-2 chump-blockers [which equals a double Fog most of the time] and cantriping [digging for more lands]).
From my experience, this isn't the correct boarding plan - you want to keep in both Swords and Wrath to have additional outs to their Ichorids/Tokkens (the later is obviously only useful if they get a slow start, but it is still better than some other stuff you have in the main).
This is my boarding plan:
-4 Standstill
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Counterspell
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Plains
Standstills get the axe because their only merit is that they pitch to Force: the Ichorid player can work better under a Standstill than you can.
The Wish gets removed for Extirpate because Wish is too slow most of the time. Also, you don't have many good things to fetch outside of Extirpate anyway.
Eternal Dragon gets boarded out for being too slow. Also, you don't need the mana/colour fixing as he won't attack your manabase.
Counterspell is boarded out because there's very little you want to/can counter and because they are too slow most of the time to do the job (counter discard-outlet) anyway. Some are kept in because you still want some in the midgame to counter their bounce for your Plague/Humility.
Crucible gets boarded out for being close to useless as it is way too slow as a wincondition and because you really don't need it: if you ever get into the position where you want to recur some lands, you've already won.
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Extirpate
+1 Enlightened Tutor
An early Meddling Mage should always be set to Cabal Therapy first - it is essential to be able to protect your sweepers/Extirpates from their discard or they'll still rip you apart.
Following Mages should be played on Dread Return (if they didn't board it out) and Chain of Vapor.
The problem with this boarding plan is that you loose 4 Blue Cards to pitch to Force bringing your total postboard Blue-card-count down to 15 (16 if you play Jace). This is dangerously low but still acceptable as you only need one Force of Will early and don't rely on having to cast some later.
Also, Force of Will isn't exactly the best card in the matchup anyway so that there's little problem if you can't cast it.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is a great tool for quite some matchups including some bad matchups (anything with Loam, really), but I don't know yet if it is versatile enough to warrant 3-4 slots as it is rather narrow if compared to some other options.
Also, I've recently moved away from playing Engineered Plague in the sideboard (cutting down to 2 Black Sources in the main alongside that change) and have replaced them with a card that is nearly as good in the matchups where you want Plague and way more versatile in all the other matchups: Runed Halo.
Runed Halo is a fine tool for nearly every matchup ranging from aggro where it acts like a better Extirpate on their main threat, an Extirpate that you can cast pro-actively and that doesn't require you to already have killed one of their guys and that also acts as removal for a current threat in a pinch all the way over to combo where it acts like a worse version of Meddling Mage which is still good enough.
Against Goblins, Plague is usually better but you still have the tools to beat the matchup postboard as setting Runed Halo to Goblin Piledriver cuts down their clock and makes their 'combo' finish when you're tapped out much less reliable. In this matchup, Runed Halo serves as a tempo card in order to buy time for you to find/resolve your Spells and does this job pretty well.
Here's my current board:
/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
Last edited by diffy; 05-25-2008 at 11:13 AM.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
First, i was wrong when I wrote that i boarded out 4 Swords cause i used it in g2. I boarded out 2 Counterspells instead of 2 Swords I guess. Jace is awesome! I already played it in Duelmen where I got 2nd because I conceded the last round. I cutted 1 Decree because I always got 2 Decrees early and often cycled one just to get the next land. So I just added 1 Jace and it rocks, especialy against Eva Green and Firlefanz. I played Plagues over Jailer/Wheel/whateva because I have 4 simchin and i expected some Elves! and Goblins and wanted to be sure to win against those.
But now I got some questions: How good is RUned Halo? I played around with it and never felt really comfortable with it. Against what is it SO great? Against Goblins plagues are better, against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh you already have a Bye. Maybe againts 4 PoP Decks but during my testing I felt like that Matchup is already good if you play correct.
Congratz on 1st NQN!!!
If 3-4 slots can turn your bad matchups into decent/good matchups...and you don't really have many other bad matchups...does it matter if it's narrow?
Also, does Runed Halo get boarded in for many matchups? I kinda liked screwing goblins over and having more outs to ETW tokens from TES with plagues. Is it better against Ichorid? Or Ceph. Breakfast? I haven't tested these matchups yet.
I guess it depends on which decks it's boarded against, but does runed halo make the matchups it's used in a lot better than they already were? Or would turning tough matchups like loam into better matchups with WoS&M be worth some slots in the board?
(On a side note: Has anybody actually tested WoS&M against Aggro-Loam and Ichorid? It seems to me like it would almost be a 2nd turn auto-win...but I haven't tried it yet, so maybe it's not as good as I'd hope.)
Thanks,
-TG
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