[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[gustha]

It'a a bit difficult figuring out a board if we don't have the main ^^
If you sneak 2 tops MD i don't se any reason for chalice to remain. Cb+top already handles well with burn/combo. If you have black, 3x Eng Plague are good enough to deal with goblins/elves/merfolks/slivers. Also, if you have a mono-green-producer-land (fair enough if you have crucible and only grip with green), grip is a solid addiction. I guess you do not run vindicate MD, and the SB does not have a wishboard so I guess you don't play wish. Vindicate is far more versatile than grip, imho. Also, those 3 slots can be filled with ajani, runed halo, 2Diabolic Edict+1Meddling Mage, depending on the meta. Also, I think that 2 relic + 1 cript is the best split atm to deal with all grave games (i usually board in relic against threshold, and i've never boarded in crypt alone, before relic was printed...course there were few tomstalkers at that time...).

3 Counterbalance
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
3 Open slots

Those 3 slot can be filled with:
+3 grip: add a little splash to improve especially threshold/dreadstill MU. It's the less satisfying option imho. Vindicate is far better.
+1 mage + 2 edict: a full set of mages is always good, and 2 edict adds some removal for the dreadstill and threshold MU
+1 mage +2 ajani: if you plan to face goyfsligh, burn, aggroloam
+3 runed halo: if the meta is full of combo.deck

Heck, this is a good side...if only i had room for 2 MD top :(


Here's the list I'm currently testing:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [APL] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

I went back to 2 Doj because my meta is full of landstill, and this is a basic card :( However, when i side Ajani in i usually side doj out, so it's a card I would honestly replace, or go down to 1x. An option to fit the cb/top engine (which is fairly good to stop combo/burn, which are a big problem, and especially to deal with high tide that is a big pain too...) could be:
MD:
-1 Counterspell/-1 Doj
+1 SDT

SB:
-1 cop:red (we handle burn with cb/top)
-3 halo (we handle combo with cb/top)
+1 SDT
+3 CB

Thoughts and suggestion are welcome. Your 2 cents in advance.

[raharu]

good point . The divert is very MEh against ANT then. They can simply duress your FoW, cast AN, and win. I've used it on my board, and I had a couple spectacular plays with it, BUt I felt that spellsnare would of come in more often and been just as useful. And I don't even like spellsnare that much on my board.

Divert shines in the matchup vs black. Sinkhole or Hymn can be GG. also, it is useful in counter wars. I think that it is a reasonable choice and that each person should decide to use it or not depending on their meta.

I have trouble with the 15 card sideboard slots not being enough, haha. In fact, that is where my deck needs the most improvement. I'm leaning toward my third color being black. It was red for a while, but I'm liking the engineered plagues on my board right now; Merfolk, Gobby, Elf, Sliver, Ichorid.

The other option is using green for grip, arg! i can't figure out my board!

It changes daily...

What do you guys think of this list? I'm squeezing 2 tops into the MD.

Card----------------------Opponent Deck
3 Counterbalance----------combo, burn, loam, etc.
3 tormod's crypt-----------loam, ichorid, survival, etc.
3 Chalice------------------combo, burn, etc.
3 Meddling Mage-----------combo, loam, LOTS of DECKS
3 Krosan Grip--------------Counterbalance.deck, Pithing Needle, dreadnought, survival

I would consider removing the Chalices for another Mage, a third SDT in the 75, and another Counterbalance. Also, I've never been that keen on Krosan Grip, and I've found that playing black over green gives you more options and the ever-versatile and powerfully destructive Vindicate. When asked why I would consider playing Vindicate over K. Grip I answer with a question: "what do I need to blow up, outside of Counterbalance, where Split Second is needed or is going to make the match easier?" Scepter-chant, maybe, but that can be preempted with Pithing Needles and Explosives (amongst Countermagic and other options), and Vindicate is more a more versatile, maindeck playable card. Since it's very rare to see Counterbalance.dec to play enough 3cc cards to stop Vindicate, and because K. Grip has a very limited appeal in any other situations, Vindicate is a better card. Or at least the one I'd play. Green is a worse color than Black in general for Control, anyway, so not being boxed into it is nice.

[Viscosity]

Good points. I agree that chalices would be the first cards to go. I like the idea of a SDt, 4th mage, 4th Cb.

Vindicate might work, but it just doesn't play well in my main deck. I would mostly be interested in removing pithing needles with it (which come in after board) so perhaps vindicate deserves a Sb slot? another benefit of vindicate over grip is that it removes plainswalkers. Not much else does.

So this is a revised list:

4x Meddling Mage
4x Counterbalance
1x SDT
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x ??????????????

The color of the last card is totally optional in my mind. But the primary focus would be to effectively handle an opponent's pithing needle.

When an opponent plays pithing needle on EE, I have no other way out other than what this sideboard card is. EE itself will deal with their counterbalance.

So the question is: What is the best sideboard card to fill these 3 slots? Being able to put the card in for other situations is 2nd priority to the effectiveness of removing pithing needle. But versatility is not to be completely discounted. Ability to handle other landstill weaknesses would be a plus.

Some options:
3x Vindicate
3x Krosan Grip
3x serenity
3x disenchant
3x shattering spree

What about 3x Nevvy Disk? I know it costs 4, but is that bad? 4 means it can get through counterbalance easily. It isn't played much anymore, but sometimes that is also good. I'd probably pull out mox diamond, but the main deck city of traitors can get disk out faster. Disk not only removes the pithing needles and counterbalances, but also does the job that the EE would of done anyway. Obviously weak to grip and stifle. Any thoughts?

[Hanni]

I haven't done any testing with Elspeth, Ajani, or Jace Beleren... so I really cannot comment on those cards.

In a Landstill shell without Humility, I run 4 Mishra's Factory, 2 Eternal Dragon, and 2 Decree of Justice. This is quite possibly wrong, and I'll test the other win conditions at some point.

For reference though, this is what I'm running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I'm 100% positive that CounterTop needs to be run in Landstill. I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Humility is a crutch that I think the deck does not need anymore. The deck has plenty of answers for creatures, and CounterTop helps keep most things off the table once its active anyway.

The green splash could hypothetically become a black splash, and Krosan Grip could hypothetically be replaced with Vindicate. Not really sure about that one yet.

[Citrus-God]

Here's my current Counter-Top Landstill list. I would like to point out that the deck still plays like UW Control.

I firmly believe that Counterbalance is strictly a Sideboard card. It may come in just about every match up, but different cards get sided out. Reason why it's not in the maindeck because by doing so, your deck will lack focus and not draw the right balance of draw cards, CB pieces and Counters. Hence, Sideboard card.


// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island


// Spells 35
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Krosan Grip
4 Counterbalance
3 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo


I'll post boarding plans later.

[Viscosity]

Elspeth, Elspeth, Elspeth.

[gustha]

I think Jace over Fof wuold be better in countertop landstill, since it helps to dig faster the deck (using the -1 ability), and also to decrease the cb/top engine without losing its support. Instead of 3/4 sdt/cb we can run 2/3 sdt/cb with jace support. Also, i don't know if citrus list realy needs all those cb/top, with all those mass removals!!!
@viscosity: if you have no splash yet, or plan to make a little splash for 1 sb card, i think disk should be a MD option. Rember that it will be indestructible if the 3rd ability of elspeth resolves. Also, gets rid of mongoose, with a good counter support, and it's our b-plan if needle names EE (which for me isn't that problem, since i run vindicate MD). It is weak to grip (maindeck grip?!?), and stifle is not a problem since it destruction is not a part of the cost but of the resolution of its ability. Generally speaking, for example againt threshold, i cast it on t5-t6 to avoid daze and with a countersupport. The opponent then tries to play around it (and avoids to play creatures till he finds the way to manage with disk) and saves the stifles for his activation. The I start to waste and vindicate his lands, and cast wrath to pass over its stifles, so the board is clear and disk never thouched. If they respond to EE wrath vindicate waste then i activate disk, saving my counters for support. Disk really needs to be MD in at least 1 copy, it's really rediculous!
For the 3 slots filler i already said what i think: 3 eng plague miss in your sb, ihmo. The rest of the sb handles the rest fair well.

[Elfrago]

Elspeth, Elspeth, Elspeth.

Am I the only one who does'nt like the planeswalker? It's a great win-con, but if you draw her at the wrong time it's a dead card. Dragon and Decree can be cycled, Mishra's taps for mana when not needed.

And four mana at sorcery speed are too much for a card that merely optimizes standstill.

[Muradin]

I am also convinced that the plainswalkers are in general not as good as the other win options viable for Landstill. All the other cards that can eventually win the game do still have some other use besides doing so. Elspeth may be good in some certain situations but most of the time I feel like she either is win-more or nearly useless.

Of course she gives the impression that she was good and I was often told: "Look, I won with Elspeth, she is so broken." But that was in most cases that she ended games where the Landstill player had already managed to bury
his opponent under a lot of cardadvantage and the game would have ended in his favor quite soon anyway.

I see her as a nice T2 card, but in general the only reason to run her in legacy Landstill might be because she is actually really good in the Landstill mirror match.

[gustha]

It's a great win-con, but if you draw her at the wrong time it's a dead card.
I am also convinced that the plainswalkers are in general not as good as the other win options viable for Landstill(italics are mine)

The simple fact is that Humility (the card which was replaced by elspeth, not Doj as one may think - and that's a common error, which me myself have made as soon as elspeth was printed) is not, strictly speaking, a wincon, but a board control element and is also hatable in different manners. Elspeth (PW in general) is a control element that also acts as a wincon, is not a wincon in jerself: she requires the same counter support as humility to be cast, but PW are less hatable and require less support to work. It's like another player is playing at your side! Elspeth is at this point far better than humility, since the only things that can break her down are those things which our deck is designed to stop: sorcery-like hate (vindicate, oring), creatures (she protects herself while buying us time, we deal with the rest with our spot/mass removals). Is not that is seems broken, she is broken! Most of the deck have no answer to a resolved PW, so if they want to stop her (and they'll want! PWs revert the gear of the game!) they must lose tempo focusing solely on that PW, while a single grip can handle fairly with humility. And we now, basically a control player has to steal tempo from the opponent and gain tempo (that's the meaning of a mid-late game strategy). The fact that, combined with our massive board/stack control elements, elspeth helps LS to be more aggressive on the board, is not irrelevant too. Course PW needs a little mentality change to be played, but the deck, though changed in its shape, has lost nothing of his pure control ambition...

[Hanni]

My question is that, with CounterTop, and without Humility, how much better is Elspeth than Eternal Dragon and DoJ.

[gustha]

My question is that, with CounterTop, and without Humility, how much better is Elspeth than Eternal Dragon and DoJ.

As I just pointed out, the question is imho wrong in its bases: Elspeth acts better the role of humility, not of dragon nor Doj. As soon as it was printed, I made the same mistake and pull doj out of my list: a terrible error! If you do run countertop (which I agree with citrus should be a sb strategy) and feel that humility is unuseful, then you should feel nearly the same in regard to elspeth. If you dislike board control element and need wincondition, then probably cycling decree is much safer for you than casting a 4cc-sorcery-speed wincon. With the basic difference that Elspeth goes on creating soldiers and making cb/top indestructible (and this will happen nearly every game for you, since with cb/top engine you can get all of the threats away from elspeth for 4/5 turns), even after a EE@0 or after a wrath, while decree is a 2x and you have to play them carefully or as game breaker. (Not to mention that she is far better than dragon). I believe that a 1 Elspeth + 2 Doj split would be really solid in your list.

Going back to my list, this is the sb i'm currently playing
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

The problem with this is that i never have that much luck to draw a couple of mage/halo against combo or burn :( I tried to sneak a sdt into my list (-1 counterspell, going down to 2 CS/ 3 snare) and manage to rearrange the board like this:

// Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top (3 with the one MD)

Do you think that this configuration is better than the first? I have problems with halo/mage (they're 6 cards against combo, plus 2 ajani against burn), but i always find it easy for my opponents to play around them, unless obviously they draw a slow hand, which seem to happen few times :'( Cb/top is a wonderful engine against combo burn (if it comes down faster... cb in itslef doesn't gain us time...), but in this way I lose ajani that's wonderful in the aggro-loam MU.

[Citrus-God]

Elspeth is a good post-board card. It protects your Humilities and Runed Halos. This is something that is vital against a deck like Threshold. And yes, regardless of what most say, Threshold in the hands of a good player is a scary match up.

[Viscosity]

I think Jace over Fof wuold be better in countertop landstill, since it helps to dig faster the deck (using the -1 ability), and also to decrease the cb/top engine without losing its support. Instead of 3/4 sdt/cb we can run 2/3 sdt/cb with jace support. Also, i don't know if citrus list realy needs all those cb/top, with all those mass removals!!!
@viscosity: if you have no splash yet, or plan to make a little splash for 1 sb card, i think disk should be a MD option. Rember that it will be indestructible if the 3rd ability of elspeth resolves. Also, gets rid of mongoose, with a good counter support, and it's our b-plan if needle names EE (which for me isn't that problem, since i run vindicate MD). It is weak to grip (maindeck grip?!?), and stifle is not a problem since it destruction is not a part of the cost but of the resolution of its ability. Generally speaking, for example againt threshold, i cast it on t5-t6 to avoid daze and with a countersupport. The opponent then tries to play around it (and avoids to play creatures till he finds the way to manage with disk) and saves the stifles for his activation. The I start to waste and vindicate his lands, and cast wrath to pass over its stifles, so the board is clear and disk never thouched. If they respond to EE wrath vindicate waste then i activate disk, saving my counters for support. Disk really needs to be MD in at least 1 copy, it's really rediculous!
For the 3 slots filler i already said what i think: 3 eng plague miss in your sb, ihmo. The rest of the sb handles the rest fair well.

What decks are concerned with that you put in Plagues? I seem to have positive match ups against most tribal decks.

I played another tournament last night. I got 2nd due to tie breakers. My only loss was a 1-2 loss to thresh and I had some bad luck. The guy who got 1st played "Its the Goyf" (CB, top, goyf, loam, Bob), and I went 2-0 against him.

I went ahead and ran Krosan Grip on the side and not disk. The indestructible disk, although funny, is a "win more" condition. I've never lost after elspeth used her ultimate.

I knew there was some stax there last night, so my SB looked like this:

3 crypt
3 mage
4 counterbalance
1 top (2 main)
2 serenity
2 k. grip

I was VERY happy with the K. Grip and I find it more useful than vindicate against counterbalance. I also prefer instant speed spells. I'm going to think some more about MD disk - I don't think it is worth opening myself up to getting owned by K. Grip though. I didn't haev to play the BURN or ANT deck, so the CB/tops never came in. I've decided those are pretty much the only match-ups I bring them in for.

For those of you convinced that Elspeth isn't that great, I'm glad to hear it. That is less Elspeth the rest of us have to worry about. It is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful cards in the current landstill environment, and you all are being slow to realize that. I wouldn't play her without Decree in the deck as well. It is the decree protecting elspeth even further that causes most "scoops".

[Citrus-God]

I tested Nantuko Monastery again. It's killer good. I'll have explanations by tonight. K, bai

[gustha]

What decks are concerned with that you put in Plagues? I seem to have positive match ups against most tribal decks.

Goblins, countersliver (a horrible MU for me...my opponent always becomes god topdecking 4 out of his 4 cristalline sliver in 2 turns...), mefolks, elves (from aggro to combo). Yes, we do have positive Mu's against these decks, but plague SMASHES them down. And since gobbos and elves and recently even merfolks are a relevant part of the italian meta (for the aggro section, above, say, zoo), it's a card that i like to see in my sb.

I didn't haev to play the BURN or ANT deck, so the CB/tops never came in. I've decided those are pretty much the only match-ups I bring them in for.

That's exactly what i fear...Ajani is a solid card against aggroloam, it wins the game by itself... that's why i'd like to have him 2x in my sb. The cb/top engine is amazing against burn ando combo (maybe a little slow against combo, mais c'est la vie), but pulls ajani out and I'm a little disappointed with this. I have to test (after the exams )

For those of you convinced that Elspeth isn't that great, I'm glad to hear it. That is less Elspeth the rest of us have to worry about. It is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful cards in the current landstill environment, and you all are being slow to realize that.

Entirely quoted. Period. I'm glad to have recognized the power of this card before it reached 30$ and more!

[klaus]

Please quit bashing on Elspeth just like that & start testing her (thoroughly).

I don't care if you don't like her afterwards, even though you prolly will, it's just that I hate people going "boo!" without having taken her for a couple of rides before.

[rockout]

For those of you convinced that Elspeth isn't that great, I'm glad to hear it. That is less Elspeth the rest of us have to worry about. It is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful cards in the current landstill environment, and you all are being slow to realize that. I wouldn't play her without Decree in the deck as well. It is the decree protecting elspeth even further that causes most "scoops".

First of, what he said. I'd rather you guys not play Elspeth. I ripped both of mine out of packs and wouldn't trade them for the world.

[Rehallek]

First of, what he said. I'd rather you guys not play Elspeth. I ripped both of mine out of packs and wouldn't trade them for the world.

Actually I got the second one youre playing in a trade Mike. But still Elspeth is savage. I've seen it in action. Difficult to deal with and makes tokens or pumps. A must answer card that is difficult to answer with current cards around.

[gieli0]

This is my UWr landstill deck but as you can see I can realy use some tips.

main
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Eternal Dragon
4x Standstill
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare Instant
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Academy Ruins
1x Dust Bowl
3x Flooded Strand
3x Island
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Decree of Justice
2x Wrath of God
side
4x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Runed Halo
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Echoing Truth
3x Stifle Instant

I choose for the red splash to get my explosives on 3. Underground Sea's are also to expensive for me, I tried to stick to the old school UW landstill.