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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #1041

    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Citrus-God View Post
    I often use leave Cunning Wishes in the Sideboard to combat the fear known as Krosan Grip. As much as I would love to resolve a Humility, sometimes they board in more threats than usual. Having a resolved Runed Halo isn't going to swing the match around. You could dig for a Cunning Wish to find another Humility via ETutor, but that means keeping Counterbalance and Teegs off the board. Personally, I'd say the best plan is to board in 3 Krosan Grips, 2 Chainer's Edict and a 3rd FoF in place of 2 Humilities, 3 Cunning Wish and 1 Brainstorm. My plan here is to keep the board clean of threats (War Monks, Enforcers, Mongeese and Goyfs) and Protection and card equity (Teegs, SDT, Counterbalance), meanwhile, I make a ridiculous amount of land drops and start chaining card advantage via FoF and Standstills. When I hit 9 lands, I will start hardcasting DoJs without mercy (assuming Goyfs or Enforcers aren't in play).
    I dont think that this the correct boarding plan. Maybe we have to look at a concrete list, but I would never board out humility vs thresh, except I have a special boarding plan like goyfs come in. Humility totally wrecks thresh, and only because they have after boarding an out vs humility I would not put my humilities in my sideboard. Instead u can try to give them more targets than they can fight with their grips or just extirpate their grips.
    Also I think, balance is not a big issue for landstill except they have the balance online AND a fast clock, which is for every deck a problematic situation. So I dont know if u need your grips.
    Boarding additional spot removal in vs their teegs etc is correct.

  2. #1042

    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Relic Vs Crypt:
    First turn relic is very nice against anything. But you can't recur it with Academy Ruins or fetch it with Tolaria West, so I like crypt better.

    Decklist with B2B main:
    Just.. Why? I understand you run mass fetches and 8 basics. But what are you hoping to accomplish with so many non-basics as well? Seems like anti-synergy.

    Wouldn't the fact that your deck is strong vs B2B and Moon be enough? Why play them in the main? What decks are you trying to beat with it? Some of landstill's hardest games are vs decks that play only basics of their own, so your main deck B2B just made you suck even more against those. Doesn't the crucible/wasteland plan work well enough against the non-basic decks?

  3. #1043
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscosity View Post
    Relic Vs Crypt:
    First turn relic is very nice against anything. But you can't recur it with Academy Ruins or fetch it with Tolaria West, so I like crypt better.
    The idea behind relic is not that you need to break it immidiately. It's a card that you want to be annoying with. eot tap, eot tap, ect. The only time you want to break it is if per say against survival they have their graveyard manipulation set up at the end of your turn when they go off. You then procede to net your extra card, but often times what happens is people will lay it when they want to set it off, which I feel is a HUGE mistake. Just removing a card every turn shuts off or hinders alot of the decks in this format. Ta cries to relic, and 2 relics tapping is often gg alone without anything else. Against threshhold keeping their geese 1/1's isnt overly difficult when your removing a card per round, and keeping goyfs at a reasonable level even when sniping your own cards to lower its power level is very effective as well. Relic turns from being a one time mass removal spell to a stabilizer and almost a suito fog if you will. Also you mentioned that it doesn't have synergy with ruins. I disagree. If you play relic for it's first ability "consistent graveyard removal" and your opponent uses a disenchant type of effect, then just return it without activating the second ability. This allows your to continue your rain of graveyard terror!!! Now once in a while as I said before you will be forced to pop your relic and when you do you net cards, but on of the biggest mistakes I've made with playing relic is sacing them too early. I lost a mono blue control match to mantain card advantage and keep pace with mr. x4 stroke x3-4 fof I had to kantrip like crazy. Little did I know he was running the 7 drop sorcery out of shadowmoore that makes 5/5 flyers and has retrace. Thanx opening hand with two relics :(. Just pace yourself and you'll win more games just by seeing additional information. Don't overextend when you don't really need to. It's obviously a common rule that all magic players try to obide by.

  4. #1044

    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    ^ Yeah that is all obvious.

    I guess my point is that you should have at least ONE crypt on your board for the recursion and tutoring from Tolaria West. I'd never run a sideboard with only relic.

    I suppose 2 relic and 1 crypt is the best balance.

  5. #1045
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscosity View Post
    ^ Yeah that is all obvious.

    I guess my point is that you should have at least ONE crypt on your board for the recursion and tutoring from Tolaria West. I'd never run a sideboard with only relic.

    I suppose 2 relic and 1 crypt is the best balance.
    Splitting up your gy hate isn't necessary if you aren't running tolaria west or you don't fear your gy hate getting needled. All in all, run relic. It's better.
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns View Post
    I dont think that this the correct boarding plan.
    At least explain why this boarding plan is bad.
    Maybe we have to look at a concrete list, but I would never board out humility vs thresh, except I have a special boarding plan like goyfs come in.
    They board removal in for Game 3. If you board out your Goyfs, you're making cards they board against you good against you.
    Humility totally wrecks thresh, and only because they have after boarding an out vs humility I would not put my humilities in my sideboard. Instead u can try to give them more targets than they can fight with their grips or just extirpate their grips.
    What makes you think it's so easy to use a Humility as bait and Extirpate their Grips anyway? They'll overrun you with threats if you even attempt this plan. You play Humility around Turn 4. Wow, great play. EOT, Grip. Now they just move to attack step and drop Counterbalance on Main phase 2. Goes back to you, you want to Extirpate their Krosan Grips now? Do you want to attempt something so hopeless just so you can resolve a 2nd Humility? Especially when you only run 2 copies? Wait... you say you run Runed Halos too? Wait? Do I see the Thresh player ignoring Runed Halo because they also boarded in additional threats?

    I won't claim my boarding plan is right, but in testing so far, it's the best that I've got. Yes, I've tried the approach of baiting Krosan Grips so I can Extirpate them. It's slow. If I want to Extirpate something, it's threats that matter; like Goyfs or Geese. Extirpating Krosan Grip and dropping 2 Runed Halos isn't going to stop Mystic Enforcer, Teegs and Rhox War Monks from killing you. If you drop another Humility, you've probably won like a few games and lost many games. If you do beat Thresh, you've beaten an inexperienced and bad Thresh player. Good Thresh players won't hand the games over to you that easily; they think ahead of you and know that you will end up executing some sub-par plan.

    Boarding additional spot removal in vs their teegs etc is correct.
    Counterbalance resolves. Boo... Now you need to board Krosan Grips of your own, just to remove Counterbalance and to keep Teeg from dominating the game.
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  7. #1047

    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Citrus-God View Post
    At least explain why this boarding plan is bad.


    They board removal in for Game 3. If you board out your Goyfs, you're making cards they board against you good against you.
    Sure, they will board in again their removal in game 3 and you should board them out.

    What makes you think it's so easy to use a Humility as bait and Extirpate their Grips anyway? They'll overrun you with threats if you even attempt this plan.
    I won nearly 20 matches in tournament with this strategy.
    When they will try to overrun u with threats, why is that a problem? U play sweepers.

    You play Humility around Turn 4. Wow, great play. EOT, Grip. Now they just move to attack step and drop Counterbalance on Main phase 2.
    That would be obviously a bad play from you. You shouldn't 100% rely on your humility, but its the perfect finisher. So you always have to clear their board.

    Goes back to you, you want to Extirpate their Krosan Grips now? Do you want to attempt something so hopeless just so you can resolve a 2nd Humility? Especially when you only run 2 copies? Wait... you say you run Runed Halos too? Wait? Do I see the Thresh player ignoring Runed Halo because they also boarded in additional threats?
    See above.

    My problem with your boarding plan is that you board out a abolutely perfect threat against thresh just because they have after boarding an out against it.
    It's like, "I don't play this card because they can counter it.." huihui.
    With this argumentation why doesnt the thresh player board out their counterbalances? He knows that you board in grips and their balances die to grips... Its because balance is a good card and a nice threat that can hinder you and highly influence the game.

    I haven't played against a thresh deck with that kind of boarding plan in a competitive environment.

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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    I've playtested back and forth between a UW and UWb build and though I do not doubt the power of 3color EE, Vindicate, and E Plagues in the board, I think I'm leaning more towards the slightly more stable UW build. Any opinions are welcome. The only deck choices I'm leaning away from currently is implementing any kind of wishboarding. The two Jaces in the board are for the mirror / control match up.


    // Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

    // Lands
    4 [U] Tundra
    3 [TE] Wasteland
    2 [IA] Plains (1)
    2 [IA] Island (2)
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    2 [ON] Polluted Delta
    3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
    1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

    // Creatures
    2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

    // Spells
    3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    2 [8E] Wrath of God
    4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
    2 [SC] Decree of Justice
    4 [DIS] Spell Snare
    4 [IA] Counterspell
    4 [OD] Standstill
    4 [CST] Brainstorm
    2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

    // Sideboard
    SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
    SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
    SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
    SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren


    edit: I'm tentatively considering 2 humilities (coupled with the elspeth for theoretical indestructibility). I know that humility has been losing alot of popularity due to kgrip and other popular removal, but does anyone have any experience playing it with the newly (somewhat) popular elspy? I've always liked crucible but it (and wastelands now that I think about it) just seem clunky anymore.
    Last edited by Smog; 02-05-2009 at 12:33 PM.
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  9. #1049
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns View Post
    Sure, they will board in again their removal in game 3 and you should board them out.
    Then your post-board game is slightly weakened.


    I won nearly 20 matches in tournament with this strategy.
    When they will try to overrun u with threats, why is that a problem? U play sweepers.
    You play 3 sweepers. EE doesn't count, considering they have quite a diverse array of threats.


    That would be obviously a bad play from you. You shouldn't 100% rely on your humility, but its the perfect finisher. So you always have to clear their board.
    It's hard to consider Humility a finisher; it may end games, but this only applies Game 1. It's only for tempo advantage post-board, and at that point, you're better off playing non-permanent based removal.

    My problem with your boarding plan is that you board out a abolutely perfect threat against thresh just because they have after boarding an out against it.
    Do you see that you're using the word "absolute"? This means that to the Thresh player, through their subjective view, it's their ultimate bane. But the problem is that Humility isn't a threat... it's a Memory Lapse that makes you tap 4 mana.

    It's like, "I don't play this card because they can counter it.." huihui.
    With this argumentation why doesnt the thresh player board out their counterbalances? He knows that you board in grips and their balances die to grips... Its because balance is a good card and a nice threat that can hinder you and highly influence the game.
    Because they actually have actual threats. Counterbalance just merely protects them. It also doesn't help your case that they will board Krosan Grips in against you. Krosan Grips answer Humility and protect Counterbalance from opposing Grips.

    But the thing here is that Counterbalance influences the game better than Humility. Thresh can sculpt their hands earlier in the game compared to you, and they can still apply pressure efficiently without Counterbalance. Gaddock Teeg, REB, Thoughtseize, Rhox War Monk, Mystic Enforcer etc, etc... You can only win off small edges; like if they were mana screwed earlier in the game for 1- 2 turns, or if you make them board in dead cards like Krosan Grips against you. Which is why I board Humility out.

    I haven't played against a thresh deck with that kind of boarding plan in a competitive environment.
    It's a competitive environment; you can't stereotype that all Threshold decks with Counterbalance have the exact same strategies. I played in a metagame with lots of 43 Land and Vial Goblins one time, and I answered that meta by playing a Red splash in Landstill in addition to UWB, for 4 Pyroclasms and 4 Price of Progress.

    But for sure, if they run UGW, and maybe even B, they'll board in Gaddock Teegs and/or Confidants.
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  10. #1050

    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    SMOG:
    Not a bad list. Personally, I'm not a fan of 4 x Spell Snare, and I LOVE 3 stifles. Stifling a first turn fetch is very good as it gives landstill some early tempo and allows the 4cc spells to be effectively faster.

    You also run 2 crucible, which personally, I do like. But I would consider cutting one wasteland for a Tolaria West. Then cut one relic on the SB for one crypt.

    Tolaria West can then be used to fetch: Academy Ruins, Wasteland, Mishra, EE, or Crypt. Also, you can transmute while standstill is in play. EG > go get a mishra or something.

    I also prefer to run 3x decree as it more often allows me to throw a standstill out even if my opponent already played a threat. If you don't want to play mana acceleration (which I am a proponent of), then I'd change your deck like so. Without acceleration, I wouldn't add any more 4 drops like humility. Plus Decree is sooo good in the control mirror. Then again, I run mox diamond and city of traitors, so it is usually more powerful. So I dunno...

    -2 spell snare
    -1 Counterspell
    -1 Wasteland
    -1 Eternal Dragon

    + 3 Stifle
    + 1 Tolaria West
    + 1 Decree

    SB:
    -1 relic
    +1 crypt

  11. #1051
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscosity View Post
    ...
    Thanks, I agree with most of your points. And I'm going to try a Tolaria West in place of a wasteland, as well as getting one tormods in for a single relic (a change I was considering anyway due to the recursion possibility with academy ruins) I also agree that stifle is very strong, particularly when you time walk away their fetch but I prefer my counters at 4. Play style I guess.
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  12. #1052
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    I have a question for all of you Landstill players: What do you board in against the mirror?

    I was thinking: -4 Standstill -2 Decre // +4 Mage +2 Ajani
    You mage naming vindicate or something else depending on your situation. Since you are boarding out Standstill you have to board out decree since it isn't nearly as good in the mirror as a planeswalker. I think the mirror is one of the match ups I have tested the least. I know from just playing the deck what is good and what is better, but a little discussion never hurt anyone.
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  13. #1053
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by rockout View Post
    Since you are boarding out Standstill you have to board out decree since it isn't nearly as good in the mirror as a planeswalker.
    Don't board out Decree of Justice in the mirror - it's just that good. Take out Spell Snare or don't bring in Meddling Mages (which aren't what they used to be anyway, especially not against the Tempo Builds), take out Wrath of God or Humility or anything, but don't take out Decree of Justice... an uncounterable, instant-speed, threat is just that good, especially since most of your games are going to get quite drawn-out. Not as flashy as a Planeswalker but still damn good.

    Edit: I found your list.

    With that particular build, I'd go:
    +1 Crucible of Worlds
    +2 Ajani Goldmane
    -3 Standstill

    If you want to get oldschool techy, roll with an additional
    -1 Standstill
    -2 Wrath of God
    +3 Meddling Mage
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    There are also old school Landstill players like me and Konsultant that leave our Standstills in. Only do this if you run 3x Wastelands in the maindeck though, otherwise you will not be able to efficiently sit behind your own Standstills.

    DoJ: Never board out DoJ in the mirror or Dreadstill. Ever.
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    All solid points. Thanks guys.

    One last question I offer to the landstill gods: How good is crucible and does it deserve 2 sb slots?

    Before you flame me, I know crucible is good. However, when I used to 1/1 split of crucible and eternal dragon it won me games that I already won. It would come down turns 6-9 where not too many decks can beat landstill after the early game. Does it deserve those crucial sb slots? It would go in place of say relic #3 and mage #4.
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  16. #1056
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    I've completely taken out crucible and wasteland and used half of the slots to further stabalize my mana base and the rest for a wider counter suite. I'm sure other's think I'm nuts but I've had nothing but smoother games and more success since. Maybe it's just because I hate wasteland.
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Smog View Post
    I've completely taken out crucible and wasteland and used half of the slots to further stabalize my mana base and the rest for a wider counter suite. I'm sure other's think I'm nuts but I've had nothing but smoother games and more success since. Maybe it's just because I hate wasteland.
    I hate facing wasteland, but I love playing it. It helps to break your standstill battles in the mirror and other decks that run man lands. Being able to color screw someone can gain you a huge tempo advantage.
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  18. #1058
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Citrus-God View Post
    There are also old school Landstill players like me and Konsultant that leave our Standstills in. Only do this if you run 3x Wastelands in the maindeck though, otherwise you will not be able to efficiently sit behind your own Standstills.

    DoJ: Never board out DoJ in the mirror or Dreadstill. Ever.
    Card advantage wins against everything even the mirror. I wouldn't take out Standstills unless you are playing against 43 Land or Ichorid. If you don't have the 3x Waste or 3x Decree then you should have more Plainswalkers than the builds that do play the Wastes and Decrees. I usually find the first person to draw off of a Standstill in the mirror will be the eventual winner.
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by konsultant View Post
    Card advantage wins against everything even the mirror. I wouldn't take out Standstills unless you are playing against 43 Land or Ichorid. If you don't have the 3x Waste or 3x Decree then you should have more Plainswalkers than the builds that do play the Wastes and Decrees. I usually find the first person to draw off of a Standstill in the mirror will be the eventual winner.
    Ofcourse that makes sense, someone is not going to break a standstill unless they are losing. And breaking a standstill just puts you that much further behind.
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  20. #1060
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    Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill

    Oftentimes I board out Standstill against Decks with Vial and cheap critters, such as Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. Standstill is not good enough against those I think. You will have to clean the board not just from creatures but also from their Vial till Standstill is somewhat okay.
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