[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[TopGun]

So I just added 1 Jace and it rocks, especialy against Eva Green and Firlefanz. I played Plagues over Jailer/Wheel/whateva because I have 4 simchin and i expected some Elves! and Goblins and wanted to be sure to win against those.

What is Firlefanz and simchin?

[TeKo]

Firlefanz is a Survival / Rockish deck?
simchin = S-Chinese = Simplified Chinese

[diffy]

If 3-4 slots can turn your bad matchups into decent/good matchups...and you don't really have many other bad matchups...does it matter if it's narrow?

If on the other hand, you could play an option that is a little worse in your bad matchups but raises near to all other matchup percentages by a decent amount postboard (especially those matchup where you normally don't have something to board in and so which get drastically worse postboard), I'd say that yes, Wheel is narrow and should maybe not be played.
Runed Halo for example might not be as strong as Wheel in the Aggro Loam / Ichorid matchups, but it is still very strong in those matchups and drastically improves them... against Ichorid it is an additional Extirpate (that can only hit Ichorid), against Aggro Loam with only 10-12 threats, it is also a good complement to Extirpate (you play it on their threats after getting rid of their recursion) making life much easier as they have little to no outs to a resolved Enchantment (Burning Wish is a must counter anyway) cutting down their clock massively.

Also, does Runed Halo get boarded in for many matchups? I kinda liked screwing goblins over and having more outs to ETW tokens from TES with plagues. Is it better against Ichorid? Or Ceph. Breakfast?

Against Combo, I'll take Halo over Plague all day long: you already have some outs to Empty the Warrens (Explosives, Wrath) so that I'll gladly take more outs to their real threat (Tendrils). I'd say point to Halo.
Against Breakfast, Plague is a little better because they have to handle it prior to going off, but less reliable as they can still circumvent it by Tutoring up a Shaman en-kor whereas Halo has to be handled imperatively in order for them to win (name: Karmic Guide/Sutured Ghoul) but gives them the option to mill into Ray of Revelation to handle it (if they play it which isn't very common). Also, Halo acts double duty in this matchup denying them off their Tarmogoyfs if need be. I'd say point to Halo.
Against Ichorid, the difference is marginal. Engineered Plague is more flexible, as it can also name Illusion or Zombie but Halo comes down earlier. Both handle Ichorid while Halo gives him the option to use Ichorid in their mainphase where Plague gives him Zombies in his upkeep. I'd say point to Plague.

I guess it depends on which decks it's boarded against, but does runed halo make the matchups it's used in a lot better than they already were? Or would turning tough matchups like loam into better matchups with WoS&M be worth some slots in the board?

Aggro Loam is a tough matchup, for sure, but it is manageable via tight play and improves due to Halo and due to playing more basics.
Especially the non-SPOD versions (my Team's versions playing Chalices and up to 8 Moons main) are very manageable so that I don't think that they deserve further, rather narrow, slots in the board.
I'll do some in-depth testing (numbers!) and come back to people on this issue though.

[Adan]

Against Combo, I'll take Halo over Plague all day long: you already have some outs to Empty the Warrens (Explosives, Wrath) so that I'll gladly take more outs to their real threat (Tendrils). I'd say point to Halo.

Tendrils? K, but it can also shut off Duress, Orim's Chant and so on.

[thefreakaccident]

I just got 12th at the PT hollywood side event dual land draft (I know, I phail).

There were many people in attendance, I think almost a hundred at the start (I know, I was shocked as well)....

I went 5-3 in rounds, with fantastic breakers, loosing 2-1 all the games I lost, and winning 2-0 all the games I won (literally).

My losses were (in order chronalogically through the tourney):

4. Armageddon stax
7. Baby burn
8. Cephalid breakfast


I will elaborate on these matches in specific later when I have time.

EDIT: Elaborations

Staxx played armageddon effects G1 until I ran out of countermagic, and then armageddoned again with trinisphere out... G2, he played a series of defense grids, which then prompted a scoop to another armageddon.

Burn used price of progress, lots of price of progress... also had sulfuric vortex to shut off pulse.


Cephalid breakfast (This one I have to ellaborate)... so, he forces down a vial early game, we go back and forth, I have plenty of countermagic in hand, I swords one of the combo critters (nomad), he has vial @ 2, he topdecks his singleton shaman FTW... I was appalled.

G2, I did what I was supposed to do, I raped him.

G3, he has a an inordinate amount of therapies (2-3, with flashback), I have humility.. he chants me, I counterspell, he echoing truths my humility, combos (my last card in hand is swords), and therapies me for my swords and wins.

There was nothing I could have done in the MUs I lost, besides maybe draw better/not play against those decks... unfortunate, I didn't play against dedicated blue agro-control or agro all day.

[lebarion]

Hi,
I've been playing casually with UWb Cunningstill for some time and now I'm planning to take this deck to a local tournament, as I think it is pretty versatile and does well against most of the matchs I may face (aggro slivers, goblins, suicide black, painter's stone combo, reanimator, survival).
However, I'm not sure how to play this deck against combo with protection - specially TES and FT, which suddenly become more common in my metagame. As landstill hardly put the opponent on a clock, he usually has time to try to combo again or to force a Orim's chant through my counters.
What do you think are the main cards and what strategy should I use in this match?
Thanks!

[NQN]

With the Clemens list you have about 11 relevant cards maindeck. Postboard you have 4 Mages and 3 Pates which makes the Matchup much better. You have to counter chant ALWAYS and then try to overwhelm them with CA and a "fast" kill.

[konsultant]

I'm running 4 Runed Halo and 3 Orim's Chant for my Tendrils hate and in testing I win about 90% of my games sideboarded. I must admit I absolutly hate having to run Chant to fight that deck but the threat of Chant considerably increases your chance's of winning.

I can't stress enough how happy I have been with Runed Halo in my SB. Against Decks where counterspells are weak Halo is my all star card.

[Jak]

I'm running 4 Runed Halo and 3 Orim's Chant for my Tendrils hate and in testing I win about 90% of my games sideboarded. I must admit I absolutly hate having to run Chant to fight that deck but the threat of Chant considerably increases your chance's of winning.

I can't stress enough how happy I have been with Runed Halo in my SB. Against Decks where counterspells are weak Halo is my all star card.

Halo is an amazing card. I am glad someone else thinks so. Being able to stop 4 Goyfs in one card wins games. It isn't narrow and is a permanent answer toa lot of things.

[evskimo]

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Force Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Decree of Justice

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Moat
1 Seal of Cleansing

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
2 wasteland
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mystic Gate
1 Academy Ruins

3 Island
2 Plains

SB:

4: Disenchant
2: Arcane Laboratory
2: Sphere of Law
1: Circle of Protection: Red
2: Energy Flux
2: Tormod's Crypt
1: Propoganda
1: Enlightened Tutor

it might seem wierd but i've dropped down to 2 wrath and 2 (or 4 - depending of how you look at it) explosives. the addition of force spike may solve SO many of my problems that include nimble mongoose, goblin lackey, duress/thoughtsieze AND it is the best card ever to pitch to FoW. i am hesitant to run more than 3 simply because either i want one in my opening hand, but if i don't i don't wanna be drawing 2 or 3 of them later in the game. so 3 seems good. i dropped jace to make room for it and in some ways it seems like a good replacement for wrath and jace beleren (or other card draw) - it's a fantastic tempo card as well as being early creature removal. i tested it briefly last night and it performed well as a 3-of. If this fails i may just turn to U/W control........

[Citrus-God]

Okay, I'm really interested in having the players in this thread take a survey on the following choices for Cunning-Still. It would be nice if players would also elaborate on their decisions as well.


1. Number of Runed Halos and/or Extirpates in the Sideboard?
2. Current Sideboard (Must include Wish board)?
3. Runed Halo in the maindeck?
4. Crucibles main or sb?
5. How many DoJs maindeck?
6. Fact or Fiction maindeck or no?
7. 4 WoGs, 3 WoGs 1 Humility, or 3 WoGs 2 Humility?
8. Enlighten Tutor as wish target or no?
9. 3 Wastelands, 1 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Tolaria West, or no Wastelands at all?
10. Boarding against Thresh, Mirror, Storm Combo, Dragon Stompy, and Vial Goblins?
11. Mana Base
12. Current Decklist (Optional)?


I'll start;

1. Number of Runed Halos and/or Extirpates in the Sideboard?

3 Extirpates, 4 Runed Halo

2. Sideboard (Must include Wish board)?

1 Slaughter Pact
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlighten Tutor
2 Dismantling Blow
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Extirpate
4 Runed Halo

3. Runed Halo in the maindeck?

Havent tested enough to justify maindeck inclusion at the moment...

4. Crucibles main or sb?

1 In the Maindeck to be fetched via ETutor

5. How many DoJs maindeck?

3 Maindeck DoJ. They're too good to go back to being 2-ofs. They are multiple turn fog effects, synergize under Humility, cycles under Standstill, can be cycled EOT which is baller, and when it is hardcasted the game is usually a sign you won.

6. Fact or Fiction maindeck or no?

I run 2 copies maindeck. They're amazing and I never side them out. I usually pitch them to FoW early game (unless I have two standstills in my hand, I'll pitch the Standstill instead), but midgame, it is a way to get started on chaining card advantage. I have never recalled a game I lost after I cast one copy of FoF. Time to time I fetch it from the SB against decks like Dragon Stompy or the mirror.

7. 4 WoGs, 3 WoGs 1 Humility, or 3 WoGs 2 Humility?

3 WoGs, 1 Humility. I can fetch the singleton Humility via CWish -> ETutor.

8. Enlighten Tutor as wish target or no?

Yes, it fetches my singletons game 1.

9. 3 Wastelands, 1 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Tolaria West, or no Wastelands at all?

Havent done enough testing with the Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, and Wasteland to justify inclusion. For now, it's 3 Wastelands.

10. Boarding against Thresh, Mirror, Storm Combo, Dragon Stompy, and Vial Goblins?

Thresh:

-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Swords to Plowshares

+1 Humility
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+4 Runed Halo


Mirror:

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Humility

+3 Extirpate
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Fact or Fiction


Storm Combo:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Fact or Fiction
-3 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon

+3 Extirpate
+4 Runed Halo


Dragon Stompy:

-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Swords to Plowshares

+4 Runed Halo


Vial Goblins:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Wasteland
-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Counterspell
-1 Standstill

+1 Humility
+1 Pulse of the Fields
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+3 Extirpate
+3 Runed Halo

11. Mana Base

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
3 Plains
3 Island

[diffy]

1. Number of Runed Halos and/or Extirpates in the Sideboard?

3 Runed Halos, 3 Extirpates in the board.
Extirpates are just great for your bad matchups while still being rather versatile (Control Matchup, Combo Matchup, NQG etc.).
Runed Halo is a current test slot and is awesome so far being something to board in for all those Matchups where you normally don't have something to bring in (and which in consequence are worse Matchups postboard than preboard which is not something you want) while still being a good tool for your worse matchups too.

2. Current Sideboard (Must include Wish board)?

4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields

The lone Blue Elemental Blast in the Sideboard is awesome - it is a complement to Runed Halo for the Combo/Goblins matchup while giving you more flexibility due to also being an easy and wishable out to Blood Moon.

3. Runed Halo in the maindeck?

Sadly I don't find the room to include them... your other removal is just more flexible because Runed Halo sadly doesn't do anything against hordes whereas Wrath of God still has some uses against what you'll normally name with Runed Halo.

4. Crucibles main or sb?

One in the main to be fetched via Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor.
Crucible of Worlds is still a very potent/solid tool but sadly a little clunky and too slow for the mid- early game. One stays in as it is a great Tutor target against disruption based and control decks.

5. How many DoJs maindeck?

I have recently moved up to running 3 DoJ in the main - but mainly because they're a better wincondition than Mishra's Factory: DoJ can actually at least stall that Goyf/random fat guy, doesn't expose your manabase and is potentially more broken and faster at ending the game.

6. Fact or Fiction maindeck or no?

No FoFs in the main: they are unneeded and too slow due to Cunning Wish taking the role of the 'rather clunky card advantage' slot (I regard Card Quality/Selection to be directly linked to raw card advantage as drawing 'n' cards will often give you the same result as getting the right card for the current situation right away).

7. 4 WoGs, 3 WoGs 1 Humility, or 3 WoGs 2 Humility?

3 Wrath of God, 2 Humility

I'm tempted to say that playing less than 2 copies of Humility is a mistake: this card is just a total bomb in so many matchups that you always want to have one by turn 5-6 the latest and if you resolve one, you simply win on the spot against most decks... I'm actually even considering moving up to three copies main but haven't tried this yet especially since the deck is rather tight on slots and because including another one at the expense of your other removal makes your deck less consistent as you still want to have access to loads of WoGs as some decks can still amass hordes of 1/1s and try to kill you.

8. Enlighten Tutor as wish target or no?

I do play an Enlightened Tutor as Wish target - and it is awesome. It just enables so many plays (e.g. tutoring up the single maindeck Crucible of Worlds) and is great in situations where Cunning Wish normally can't help you because it can get you removal (Engineered Explosives, Humility).
Enlightened Tutor is also my Card Advantage slot in the Wishboard as it can either creature virtual Card Advantage by fetching Humility or real Card Advantage by fetching Standstill so that I free up another slot (normally dedicated to Fact or Fiction).

9. 3 Wastelands, 1 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Tolaria West, or no Wastelands at all?

1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland

I would run no Wastelands at all if the manabase hadn't become so consistent over time: the occasions where you really want to use Wasteland are rather rare and close to always wasting a random, non utility, land is the bad play because you gain more tempo by developing your own manabase than by destroying your opponent's: you aren't the guy with the curve that stops at 2-3 who doesn't need many lands out to function well and you thrive on having as much mana as possible.
On the flip side of the coin, totally cutting Wasteland is also a rough call because having the possibility of the Crucible+Wasteland lock and having outs to opposing manlands and utility Lands (Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins) is still very nice.
Running Tolaria West is a good solution to the dilemma as it ups the virtual Wasteland count without being as bad/narrow as more copies of Wasteland. The 'comes into play tapped' close to never matters and the flexibility outweighs the small inconveniences Tolaria West might create by far: being able to fetch out both pieces of the Academy Ruins+Engineered Explosives soft lock or a Mishra's Factory/Wasteland depending on the situation is worth gold.

10. Boarding against Thresh, Mirror, Storm Combo, Dragon Stompy, and Vial Goblins?

Disclaimer: these boarding plans are by no means definitive and change from day to day - especially the Dragon Stompy and Goblins sideboarding tactics are rather sketchy as I only rarely face them in my Meta.

NQG:

Non-Balanced (hence Tempo) NQG:
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Wrath of God
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Extirpate

Balanced NQG:
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+3 Runed Halo

Landstill:

Against versions without Tombstalker:
-3 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-4 Standstill
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+2 Extirpate

If they play Tombstalker, I additionally board:
-1 Swords to Plowshares (to still have access to removal in the Wishboard)
+1 Enlightened Tutor

Storm Combo:

Against non-Burning Wish based Combo
-3 Cunning Wish
-3 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+3 Extirpate
+1 Enlightened Tutor

If they play a build with red, I also board:
-1 Decree of Justice
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

Dragon Stompy:
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Counterspell
+3 Runed Halo

Goblins:
-1 Standstill
-1 Cunning Wish
-2 Counterspell
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

11. Mana Base
12. Current Decklist (Optional)?

I keep this post updated with the latest public version of the deck.

[evskimo]

i'm most interested in this discussion on cunning wish, keep it up! has it actually been decided that wish builds are superior to all other U/W/x builds?

[thefreakaccident]

Pretty much, Cwish gives the deck so much power and flexibility it isn't even funny...

@ DIF- Why are you running only 3 mishra's factory?

I would feel naked with only 3 in the MD...

Couldn't you just keep the original manbase? I never had mana issues with 4 basics, and I almost feel 6 is overdoing it... however, I will test it and get back to you on it (I am skeptical however with 6 basics and 3 mishra's...).

I may just drop wasteland, as my meta rarely ever has stronghold/ruins, and in the case of ruins, I can tutor for my own and trade (we have crucibles, they probably don't).

[Mister Agent]

Well DIF added another decree of justice to his newest list while narrowing down his mishra count by one. I consider this a clever tweek considering decree can function the same way as mishra but can also win the late stages of a game on a dime. Also running 3 decrees increases the efficiency of humility as well by making their function more potent in a defensive/offensive manner.

I also have been testing runed halo out a ton and it's quite impressive in the mirror. Runed halo functions like a psuodo-wasteland and at the sametime you don't need to dilute your manabase to run runed halo.

[diffy]

Has it actually been decided that wish builds are superior to all other U/W/x builds?

No, this hasn't been decided - there is generally no consent about Landstill lists or whatsoever, especially Cunning Wish isn't universally adopted.

I decided to play it in the first place because it was a nice way to improve your bad matchups pre-board (anything with a recursion engine like Life from the Loam or Genesis) without filling up otherwise dead slots. It also allowed to move the Pulse of the Fields from the main to the sideboard while getting access to even 'more' copies of them.
Over time, the slot has developed and will stay for me as it makes the deck much more flexible than without it and is rarely dead: it can always act as a Dark Banishing/Disenchant slot or better depending on the matchup.
The main problem with Cunning Wish is that it is rather clunky and makes a top-heavy deck even more mana intensive which is not something you want... therefore you have to often decide if you want to play Cunning Wish or another clunky source of card advantage like Fact or Fiction. For me this pick is easy as I like to be sure to have the solution I need instead of gambling on having it in the top five cards and because I find Fact or Fiction generally horrible as against a good player it will only create CA+1 as he will close to always split so that you have to take the smaller pile.

So basically you have to ask yourself if there are bad matchups for Landstill (read: decks with recursion engines) in your meta. If you answer this question with 'yes', I'd always play Cunning Wish as having a better winpercentage against the entire field is in my opinion superior to making already good matchups even better.
As in the US hardly no-one seems to play anything with a Life from the Loam engine, I can see people getting away without playing Cunning Wish, but in Europe and Germany in particular, this would be suicidal.

In a completely random/unknown metagame, I'd always play Cunning Wish though.

Why are you running only 3 mishra's factory?

I wondered when this question would come up. This is a rather radical change I recently made and that could turn out to be a wrong decision but that has been great so far.

Here's my reasoning behind cutting a Mishra's Factory to bring in a third Decree of Justice:
First of all, we admit that this statement is true:

• You want to develop your manabase as safely as possible because if you stabilize your manabase and make a land drop per turn, you're in a good position to win.

We then move on from there:

1. Mishra's Factory is a bad blocker:
   
   • It doesn't really kill anything any more with so many Goyfs running around
   • It exposes your manabase if you want to block:
     
     • If your opponent swings with a creature into your Factory and you have to block, chances are that you either trade with that creature or that Factory is even inferior to the creature so that you have to chump.
     • If your opponent swings with an inferior creature into your Factory, chances are that he has a removal - you don't want to activate and block with Factory because giving the opponent good targets for his otherwise dead removal is the first step on the path towards loosing: remember your lands are one of the most important part of the deck.
       
       • In all above mentioned cases you loose a land and get even into further trouble as you loose tempo too: you have just prevented some damage/killed a guy but did also develop your board negatively meaning that you're a land further away from stabilizing
   • Sub-conclusion: Decree of Justice is the better blocker as it doesn't cost you a land drop, kills also the guy a Factory would normally kill without dying and even gets you further ahead because of the cantrip effect. Instead of creating negative tempo and getting deeper into trouble due to loosing a land (Factory), DoJ actually gets you in a better position to get out of the trouble because it digs a card deeper.
2. Mishra's Factory is a bad attacker:
   
   • In the early- and midgame, you don't want to attack with a Factory most of the time because you don't want to tap down for a mere two damage
   • In the lategame, DoJ is clearly superior to Mishra's Factory too as it isn't vulnerable to spot removal and creates the better clock.
   • Sub-conclusion: Decree of Justice is the better attacker as it is the better clock in the lategame and doesn't mean you having to tap out before your opponents turn in order to deal damage
3. Conclusion: DoJ is the better card, hence Mishra's Factory -> Decree of Justice is reasonable

Couldn't you just keep the original manbase? I never had mana issues with 4 basics, and I almost feel 6 is overdoing it...

Without Engineered Plague in the sideboard, there is little reason to still play 3 -Duals as you only need them for Engineered Explosives and Extirpate and can sit on fetchlands if you're really under pressure from opposing Wastelands (+Life from the Loam) until you find the Extirpate.
Also, playing more basics equals a more stable and less vulnerable manabase which is not a bad thing to have, especially if with more basics you can simply ignore some of the most common hate that is thrown at you (Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Wastelands etc.) which is also a good thing because it creates virtual card advantage.

Short Version:

• We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
  
  • Landstill > Format
  • Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
  • Basics > Non-Basic Hate
• We can therefore logically conlude that
  
  • Basics > Format

[FlavaSava]

What do you think about
1. 2 Oblivion Stones instead of 2 Wraths
2. Dismantling Blow instead of Return to Dust in the Sb
3. 1 random Mindslaver or is it overkill?

[Nihil Credo]

What do you think about
1. 2 Oblivion Stones instead of 2 Wraths

Just picture yourself using Oblivion Stone to survive against Goblins.

2. Dismantling Blow instead of Return to Dust in the Sb

A perfectly good alternative. Works well if there's little Stax/DS in your meta. Arguably better in the mirror as well, although not preventing Academy Ruins shenanigans is sort of a bummer.

3. 1 random Mindslaver or is it overkill?

Overkill. For 13 mana, a Decree of Justice is usually just as lethal.

[Citrus-God]

I can see Dismantling Blow replacing Disenchant because 2W isnt that bad of a cost, it's just 1 more than a Disenchant. It can still remove Counterbalance and get around it the usual curve.

[NQN]

Sounds good...but who the fuck plays Disenchant?