Doomsday Piles

[GiantGrowth]

I'd like to try to make a list of all the available doomsday piles in order to examine the possibility of a playable doomsday combo deck. I'm tired of looking at that card and saying to myself "I wonder if that will ever work." I say we find out, here and now. I know it's been done before, but I want to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that doomsday is/is not a playable deck idea.

post what you have with an explanation if necessary, whether you need certain cards in hand, and how much mana you need besides the cost of doomsday.

Ill post what we have so far here:

2U for predict and bauble
Predict
Grapeshot
LED
Bauble
Second Sunrise

5 without having any of the permanents before doomsday
*Any two cards that let you draw three cards (blank+Ideas Unbound, Street Wraith + Perilous Research, etc...)*
Helm of Awakening
Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top
Brain Freeze or Grapeshot

Cost/Requirements: 1BB + U/BBB Draw Spell that draws at least 3 (Brainstorm or a Draw4)
Effect: 8 Storm + Tendrils with just the stack (so excluding the draw spell, doomsday, accel, etc)
Stack:
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
DW
IGG

Cost/Requirement: 4B + U Brainstorm and Sensei's Top
Effect: Double Tendrils for at least 22 lifeloss
Stack:
Infernal Tutor
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tendrils

Cost/Requirement: 2BBB + U Brainstorm + 2 cards in hand (this is technically a requirement for the draw4 to not kill you; I thought this was obvious)
Effect: Double Tendrils for 22 lifeloss
Stack:
Draw4
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tendrils

2UB Requires a turn, and the opponent to not have instant speed removal. Could just as easily be the same turn if breakthrough (or street wraith) is in your hand when you cast the doomsday
Breakthrough
Shallow Grave
Krosan Cloudscraper
Krosan Cloudscraper
Sutured Ghoul

BBB requires SDT in play and cruel bargain in hand.
LED
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils

Shelldock Isle
Darksteel Colossus
Careful Study
Elvish Spirit Guide
Berserk

Shelldock Isle
Searing Wind
Twincast
Prodigal Sorcerer
Obstinate Familiar

Shelldock Isle
Auriok Salvagers
Careful Study
Lion's Eye Diamond
Pyrite Spellbomb

[Nihil Credo]

*Any two cards that let you draw three cards (blank+Ideas Unbound, Street Wraith + Perilous Research, etc...)*
Helm of Awakening
Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top
Brain Freeze or Grapeshot

Usually five mana for the whole thing; the plus side is that the three permanents can be cast before Doomsday if you draw them, and two of them are useful on their own too. You also may or may not use effective card-drawing spells in the top two slots.

[emidln]

I'd like to try to make a list of all the available doomsday piles in order to examine the possibility of a playable doomsday combo deck. I'm tired of looking at that card and saying to myself "I wonder if that will ever work." I say we find out, here and now. I know it's been done before, but I want to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that doomsday is/is not a playable deck idea.

post what you have with an explanation if necessary, whether you need certain cards in hand, and how much mana you need besides the cost of doomsday.

Ill post what we have so far here:

1U for predict
Predict
Grapeshot
LED
Bauble
Second Sunrise

This costs 2U unless you have some savage way of not paying for Bauble. I've been using these double LED stacks quite a bit in the last day in my build of FT with Doomsdays:

Cost/Requirements: 1BB + U/BBB Draw Spell that draws at least 3 (Brainstorm or a Draw4)
Effect: 8 Storm + Tendrils with just the stack (so excluding the draw spell, doomsday, accel, etc)
Stack:
LED
LED
IT
DW
IGG

Cost/Requirement: 2BBB + U Brainstorm + 2 cards in hand (this is technically a requirement for the draw4 to not kill you; I thought this was obvious)
Effect: Double Tendrils for 22 lifeloss
Stack:
Draw4
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tendrils

Cost/Requirement: 4B + U Brainstorm and Sensei's Top
Effect: Double Tendrils for at least 22 lifeloss
Stack:
Infernal Tutor
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tendrils

[Pinder]

Cost/Requirement: 2BBB + U Brainstorm
Effect: Double Tendrils for 22 lifeloss
Stack:
Draw4
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tendrils

I'm not seeing how this one works. You play the draw4, and you get double LED and double Tendrils. Then you play the LEDs, crack them, and...lose the game?

[emidln]

I'm not seeing how this one works. You play the draw4, and you get double LED and double Tendrils. Then you play the LEDs, crack them, and...lose the game?

Brainstorm into LED, LED, Draw4, putting back 2 blank cards
LED
LED
Draw4 (cracking both LEDs in response for black)
Tendrils
Tendrils

I just came up with this against a Stax player who had Chalice @ 1 and Chalice @ 2 down:

In Play:
(LED)
Sensei's Divining Top (not relevant, but it helped get me there)
Underground Sea
Swamp
Scrubland
Island
Plains

Hand: Cruel Bargain or LED + misc 1cc and 2cc spells
The stack:
Cruel Bargain or LED
LED
LED
IGG
Death Wish

You'll need access to an LED or a Cruel Bargain before casting Doomsday. Put the other one as the first card in the doomsday stack. You also need at least 4 life after casting Doomsday. It generates Storm of 8 + Tendrils of Agony. I had to pass the turn, but all he had was a couple Mishra's Factory that weren't exactly threatening.

Edit: I noticed while I was constructing DD Piles that Death Wish is actually irrelevant to the kill. It's just as easy to construct the stack something like this:

LED
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils

and it'll play out like this:

Draw LED for the turn
Play LED
Play Cruel Bargain, breaking LED in response
Play LED
Play LED
Play IGG cracking 2x LED in response taking LED, LED, Doomsday
Play LED
Play LED
Play Doomsday for an irrelevant 4 cards and Tendrils on top of the stack.
Tap top to draw a card, breaking both LED in response
Play Tendrils with 8 storm.

This requires SDT, but doesn't require you to have Death Wish available. Unfortunately, it still requires you to be at 4 or more life on your actual combo turn. If you're at 8 or more life, you could actually deal 20 damage (although there's a good chance that Stax has dealt itself damage with its manabase) by doing the same trick with Doomsday a second time but this time draw into Death Wish which can get Tendrils.

[Fons]

\\Top
Breakthrough
Shallow Grave
Krosan Cloudscraper
Krosan Cloudscraper
Sutured Ghoul
\\Bottom

\\Top
Ideas Unbound
Erratic Explosion
Soul Spike
Random Card
Draco
\\Bottom

[Willoe]

A new one as shitty pile:

Shelldock Isle
Auriok Salvagers
Careful Study
Pyrite Spellbomb
Lion's Eye Diamond

Draw hideaway land, play it hide auriok salvagers, next turn play it, then you have drawn careful study that turn. Draw LED and Spellbomb, discarding spellbomb and 1 random card. Could be Necrogen Spellbomb for protection. You first add 60*W mana, then recur and sac spellbomb 20 times to win.

Although this pile is somewhat different and slower, it doesn't require anymore than shelldock isle and two islands. Consider you Underground Sea turn 1, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, make the pile, next turn draw shelldock, and on turn 3, you play your final sea to pay hideaway cost and careful study cost.

A list that just popped out of my mind:

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
3 Swamp
3 Island
2 Shelldock Isle

4 Dark Confidant

4 Dark Ritual
2 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Infernal Tutor

4 Force of Will

4 Doomsday
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Pyrite Spellbomb

[GiantGrowth]

First post updated! let me know if I got anything wrong.

are there any other piles that could use shelldock isle?

[Willoe]

All sorts of combos that will win you the game instantly no matter the casting cost of one of the cards.

Shelldock Isle
Darksteel Colossus
Careful Study
Elvish Spirit Guide
Berserk

This is very risky. A chump-blocker will cost you the game.

Shelldock Isle
Searing Wind
Twincast
Prodigal Sorcerer
Obstinate Familiar

This is better. It deals just 20 damage for UUU and the Shelldock. Prodigal Sorcerer and Obstinate Familiar is just for fun. It could be anything.

More to come.

[emidln]

Technically the requirement for the one to play around Chalice is this:

1BBB Cruel Bargain or LED in hand/play

Cruel Bargain OR LED
LED
LED
IGG
Death Wish OR Tendrils

For Death Wish to work, you need at least 4 life after casting Doomsday and you'll deal 16-18 lifeloss.

For Tendrils to work, you need at least 2 life after casting Doomsday and you'll deal 14-16 lifeloss.

If you have access to 1cc spells, a sensei's top in play, and some number of ponder or brainstorm in hand or another top in play, you can guarantee to do 20 with the stack of:

Draw4
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils

making the second Doomsday stack of:

Brainstorms/Ponders
Brainstorms/Ponders
Brainstorms/Ponders
Tendrils
IRRELEVANT CARD

This yields 20 lifeloss with 1 Brainstorm/Ponder and up to 24 lifeloss total. If you have a second Top, you can deal 26 lifeloss total.

[Willoe]

More Shelldock Isle stacks:

Shelldock Isle
Platinum Angel
Street Wraith
Anurid Scavenger
Second Chance

You simply play the angel off Shelldock. It should win you the game. If that is not enough, they might have burned their removal off your angel, and you can win with an Anurid Scavenger + Second Chance combo. This requires three lands in play (shelldock isle can be used).

In fact, Shelldock Isle makes it possible to win in any possible way. The only thing you have to have in play is another land. The cool is that the land is uncounterable (obv.) although your other spell you play off it isn't. I'll test if Shelldock Isle is any good and which kill's the best. I personally prefer this one:

Shelldock Isle
Auriok Salvagers
Careful Study
Lion's Eye Diamond
Pyrite Spellbomb

It's infinite, it can use cards that could otherwise be used in the deck and it's hardcastable. I'd go with a UWBr control pile. This concept simply oozes of Fetchland Tendrils.

And emidln, nice that you actually do some testing with Doomsday (besides our piles are... different), it sounds really good in FT! :D

[Alfred]

Fuck, I just lost all of the stuff that I was typing, so I'll just summarize my thoughts. I think Shelldock seems like a sweet idea for the deck, but not to actually include in the stack: more as just a way of kickstarting the combo with less mana, and instantly after casting DD by playing them as a land.

Here is my idea with Shelldock:

Play 4 Shelldock Isles in the deck. Play with 4 Meditates and 4 Predicts.

If you Shelldock into a Meditate, you can combo out directly after casting a Doomsday with this stack:

LED
Lotus Petal
Bauble
Grapeshot
Second Sunrise

You just play out LED, Petal -> Bauble, then combo out the same way you would do it normally with the Predict combo. Result: it costs 1 less mana than the original combo (UU rather than 2U) and it allows you to go off immediately after casting Doomsday.

If you trap a Predict under Shelldock, go like this: Play Doomsday, pop Shelldock for Predict with this stack:

Grapeshot
Bauble
Street Wraith
LED
Second Sunrise

Combo off the way you normally would. It costs nearly the same (1UU instead of 2U), but you get to do it the turn you cast DD, which is great if you play Dark Rituals.

There are probably other interactions I'm not thinking about right now, but playing Shelldock as a 4 of in this deck hardly hurts you at all, because playing Meditates and Predicts in combo/control decks doesn't seem like a huge problem to me anyway.

Also, the problem with Shelldock (it produces only blue in a deck that wants BBB) could be solved by using Sunken Ruins, which is the UB Graiven Cairns from Shadowmoor.

EDIT:
Another Shelldock Isle "Trap" card could be Manamorphose. While it's CC is tricky, it would allow you to instantly start the Predict combo, for the same amount of mana.

[moxpearl]

This thread is great for understanding the use of a single Doomsday in Fetchland Tendrils. Giant Growth, I don't see this one:
" BBB requires SDT in play and cruel bargain in hand.
LED
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils "
I think it needs one more colorless to cast the IGG.

Is there a clever stack if you're both topdecking, no top, in the face of opponent's Leyline or crypt, and you can cast Doomsday? Most of the non-graveyard stacks seem to use brainstorm or top. Not sure if it comes up that often, but I'm thinking of a case where you try to go off in the face of graveyard hate, fail, and then top deck a mystical to get Doomsday.

[emidln]

This thread is great for understanding the use of a single Doomsday in Fetchland Tendrils. Giant Growth, I don't see this one:
" BBB requires SDT in play and cruel bargain in hand.
LED
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils "
I think it needs one more colorless to cast the IGG.

Is there a clever stack if you're both topdecking, no top, in the face of opponent's Leyline or crypt, and you can cast Doomsday? Most of the non-graveyard stacks seem to use brainstorm or top. Not sure if it comes up that often, but I'm thinking of a case where you try to go off in the face of graveyard hate, fail, and then top deck a mystical to get Doomsday.

The best plan here is probably to Mystical for Death Wish then Death Wish into Empty the Warrens. Alternately, you can Mystical for a Draw4 and play it. Playing Doomsday will mean you either need an obscene amount of mana to deal 18, a more obscene amount to add in Death Wish to manage to get to 20, Wipe Away the hate + ETW + IGG + Doomsday again so you don't lose to decking.

When the OP quoted my solution, he kinda shortened it. I explain it roughly 3 posts above you.

[GiantGrowth]

So, I've been thinking about this all day. I don't know much about fetchland tendrils, but would it be better to start off with a control shell to fit doomsday and the combo pieces into, or start with some kind of FT that has a little more emphasis on doomsday? also, keep the piles coming!

[emidln]

So, I've been thinking about this all day. I don't know much about fetchland tendrils, but would it be better to start off with a control shell to fit doomsday and the combo pieces into, or start with some kind of FT that has a little more emphasis on doomsday? also, keep the piles coming!

I was considering this (as I had built a Doomsday combo-control deck in the vein of FT before actually sticking it into FT) and came to this major question:

If I've sufficiently protected my combo, is it easier to cast Infernal Tutor and win the game or Doomsday and win the game? Well, if we take into account that we've already resolved an Abeyance/Chant effect and protected it, you run into these numbers:

Doomsday requires at least 2 cards, one of which must be Doomsday, and another must be a draw spell. This requires, at the very least, 2UBBB (with a Sensei's Divining Top or a Street Wraith).

Infernal Tutor requires at least 3 cards, one of which must be Infernal Tutor, and two of which must be Ritual effects producing at least 3BBB + the cost of the least expensive ritual (otherwise IGG will not loop).

This boils down into Infernal Tutor needed 2 of a group of 12 cards and Doomsday requiring 1 of a group of roughly 12 cards. The caveat here is that the additional cards pay for the mana requirement of the Infernal Tutor combo. That is, the 3 necessary cards are self-contained. With Doomsday, a Doomsday, a draw spell, and mana (probably requiring rituals) will be needed to get to 2UBBB. This turns the Doomsday requirement into 1 of a 4-of, 1 of a 12-of, 1-2 of a 12-of versus the 1 of a 4-of and 2-of of a 12-of requirement of Infernal Tutor. Unless there is significant mana development, the Infernal Tutor win condition will be as efficient, if not more efficient than the Doomsday win condition.

Another major question is how much are you affected by hate and what can you do about it? I don't think it would be intelligent to argue that one instant and sorcery-based UBw combo deck is better at finding bounce/solutions than another instant and sorcery-based UBw combo deck so I'll focus on the scenario of what happens if you can't answer the hate. Can you play through it?

In a Doomsday-centric list the answer is maybe. Leyline of the Void for instance, assuming the Grapeshot infinite storm kill, must be answered before the combo is played. The only way around this is to include an alternate win condition outside of the combo.

In an Infernal Tutor-centric list (playing Doomsday as a bomb) the answer is yes. Nothing forces a Doomsday to be played, and it is relatively easy to play through hate ranging from Meddling Mage to Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere to Leyline of the Void by altering the immediate path to victory. This is possible because the actual kill condition (Tendrils of Agony/Empty the Warrens) can be realized through a number of ways, from Ill-Gotten Gains to Doomsday to simple spell casting. Shutting down one avenue leaves others open for exploitation without actually addressing the hate in most scenarios.

The answer that I arrived at was that adding Doomsday to storm combo provided more flexibility by allowing alternate paths of storm generation. This does not preclude a build with more Doomsdays or a heavy emphasis on casting Doomsday, but it appears that the inclusion of an Infernal Tutor/Tendrils of Agony engine allows Doomsday to be used opportunistically with the potential for winning outside of the primary victory path than other kill conditions. This seems very important in the face of widely varying hate cards present in the Legacy metagame.

[BreathWeapon]

Have people found Doomsday piles that abuse Doomsday(ing) into a second Doomsday pile for additional storm? The basic idea being that Doomsday #1 stacks Infernal Contract, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Doomsday and Brainstorm and then re-stacks Infernal Contract, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony for a guaranteed stack of 10 storm with a minimum of 16 life and 0 cards in hand.

Note: If you still have cards in hand, you can move the Dark Ritual in that stack forward to reduce the costs.

There's also some interesting looping potential with Doomsday(ing) into a Research/Development pile of 4 Manamorphose or 4 Ill Gotten Gains for building ridiculous storm counts.

Chaining Doomsdays is sweet tho', you're pretty much guaranteed to win if you get to untap with that pile, it feels like unrestricted Yawgmoth's Will.

[emidln]

Have people found Doomsday piles that abuse Doomsday(ing) into a second Doomsday pile for additional storm? The basic idea being that Doomsday #1 stacks Infernal Contract, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Doomsday and Brainstorm and then re-stacks Infernal Contract, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony for a guaranteed stack of 10 storm with a minimum of 16 life and 0 cards in hand.

Note: If you still have cards in hand, you can move the Dark Ritual in that stack forward to reduce the costs.

There's also some interesting looping potential with Doomsday(ing) into a Research/Development pile of 4 Manamorphose or 4 Ill Gotten Gains for building ridiculous storm counts.

Chaining Doomsdays is sweet tho', you're pretty much guaranteed to win if you get to untap with that pile, it feels like unrestricted Yawgmoth's Will.

Kinda. I built a pile to recur Doomsday off IGG to generate additional storm. I only play one, so short of running Doomsday into an RFG effect like Leyline then Death Wishing for it or using Ill-Gotten Gains, I can't manage to cast it twice.

[Nihil Credo]

Have people found Doomsday piles that abuse Doomsday(ing) into a second Doomsday pile for additional storm? The basic idea being that Doomsday #1 stacks Infernal Contract, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Doomsday and Brainstorm and then re-stacks Infernal Contract, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony for a guaranteed stack of 10 storm with a minimum of 16 life and 0 cards in hand.

While interesting, this sequence requires that you have previously put Dark Ritual and Tendrils into the graveyard, right? So it would be more of a "cool trick if the stars align right" than a main plan.

[BreathWeapon]

The second Doomsday is definitely worth it, because the Doomsday into Doomsday pile lets you avoid Ill Gotten Gains altogether, which lets you play around a discarded Force of Will effectively.

There also has to be a stack involving Brainstorm in hand, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract, Infernal Contract and Research/Development into another 4 card pile that wins the games from there, sort of like the Vintage Mind's Desire and Research/Development piles.

As long as life is at 16, there's an extended loop of Brainstorming into a Doomsday of Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract, Infernal Contract, Research/Development and then Research/Development into Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual (you should be at Threshold) and Doomsday or perhaps double Cabal Ritual into double Tendrils of Agony.

Research and Development seems to have a lot of merit as a pseudo second Doomsday on the back end that lets you avoid using the graveyard. You could also conceivably find a way to set up a Krosan Reclamation.

It's certainly more Doomsday centric, but I doubt a minimum of 2 Doomsday and 1 Research and Development is going to cripple a typical Storm deck with bricks.