[Deck] UBGx Landstill

[Citrus-God]

Because if even if your FoW resolves, you're still never going to draw another one in the entire game. 4 Counterspell Landstill isn't too strong, I hear.

I'm going to have to back up Mental, because he's right. The point of Landstill is to draw into cards and prevent threats from being played. Now preventing is different from answering. There are times where you're going to have to let it resolve so that you can answer it later, but it is mostly recommended to prevent that threat before it deals more damage and applies more pressure towards you. Counters are there to prevent threats, which is why Standstill is so bloody amazing and which is why you can chain Standstills so effectively because what you're doing to the board is controlling it by preventing threats from doing harm towards you.

[The Grim Reaper]

Why is it that everyone seems to be playing 3x Edict instead of 3x Explosives? Explosives answer almost anything, and you already have 4x STP to answer creatures!

[Citrus-God]

Why is it that everyone seems to be playing 3x Edict instead of 3x Explosives? Explosives answer almost anything, and you already have 4x STP to answer creatures!

Not sure why, but if it's UGB, then you should be running Edict and EE. But in a deck like UWBG, you want to have EE because it can do more. I wasnt sure why Tacosnape cut the EEs for Edicts, but I'm pretty sure it was an alpha test build. I'm sure he'd leave it in if he keeps testing EE. Then again, I think he cut EE because it interferes with Jace.

[The Grim Reaper]

Not sure why, but if it's UGB, then you should be running Edict and EE. But in a deck like UWBG, you want to have EE because it can do more. I wasnt sure why Tacosnape cut the EEs for Edicts, but I'm pretty sure it was an alpha test build. I'm sure he'd leave it in if he keeps testing EE. Then again, I think he cut EE because it interferes with Jace.

I think you are probably right about the alpha build part. I run both EE and Jace and in 60+ games played I've only once had EE interfere with Jace. Usually if you have Jace out and are drawing tons of cards, you don't need to blow EE anyway.

[landstill101]

Why don't you guys try garruk wildspeaker instead of jace? Jace does help draw more cards but it doesn't win you the game(its win mech is way way way to slow to truly count) and it actually helps them draw cards too, so it doesn't help you control the game if you give them more chances to stablize. But if you use garruk instead, it gives you a great kill mech, a great blocking tool, and an overrun ability that really wins games. But the main reason you should choose garruk is because it helps against one of landstill's most horrible problems...land disruption. With garruk you can add 2 more mana to keep you mana screwed, add more power to factories to swing in, save your ass against choke, stax decks, anyone that runs ghostly prison, and it can save you a couple of turns getting attacked because many times ppl wont take out jace because their drawing cards too but with garruk they try to remove it faster than goyf.

My list also consists of goyf for a kill mech too, so the third ability is huge, but the first 2 abilities are more than enough to atleast give it a shot.

[The Grim Reaper]

Why don't you guys try garruk wildspeaker instead of jace? Jace does help draw more cards but it doesn't win you the game(its win mech is way way way to slow to truly count) and it actually helps them draw cards too, so it doesn't help you control the game if you give them more chances to stablize. But if you use garruk instead, it gives you a great kill mech, a great blocking tool, and an overrun ability that really wins games. But the main reason you should choose garruk is because it helps against one of landstill's most horrible problems...land disruption. With garruk you can add 2 more mana to keep you mana screwed, add more power to factories to swing in, save your ass against choke, stax decks, anyone that runs ghostly prison, and it can save you a couple of turns getting attacked because many times ppl wont take out jace because their drawing cards too but with garruk they try to remove it faster than goyf.

My list also consists of goyf for a kill mech too, so the third ability is huge, but the first 2 abilities are more than enough to atleast give it a shot.

While I agree that Garruk is a good card, it doesn't actually stop land disruption. By the time you can pay his hefty 2GG casting cost, you should already be relatively stable. Most of the landstill-raping land disruption happens before you get to 4 lands, which makes Garruk kind of useless. Also, Jace pitches to FoW (a minor detail).

[thefreakaccident]

I have been dabbling a little bit into LandStill Americana, mainly because of my meta... Here is a little list for your guys input on the matter:

lands//24 (been using snapes manabase... is strong enough)
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuku monastary
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

spells//36
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 pernicious deed
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 fact or fiction
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
2 spell snare
1 engineered explosives
1 extirpate
1 life from the loam


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague
2 krosan grip
2 yixlid jailer

You only need, in my opinion, 2 grips in the board due to the high amount of possible enchantment/artifact hate in the MD...

You do need the extra grave hate though, although it isn't much... the one ofs are there just to fill in some extra slots, EE being like a fifth copy of deed, LftL being extra copies of my manlands, and extirpate being a preumtive answer to any threat I have already encountered... the 2 spell snares are there for extra counterbackup, and helps against threshold/goyf.


I haven't needed any other wincons in the deck, and usually can put it away in just a couple of turns after acheiving control (not a very difficult task)...


I have been having a tough time against the ranimator MU (believe it or not this is an important MU here)... as they either a. have a SSS, which will not die, or b. have a sundering titan which cripples my board state.

I will like to have your replies on this issue as well.

[Mantis]

I'm going to have to back up Mental, because he's right. The point of Landstill is to draw into cards and prevent threats from being played. Now preventing is different from answering. There are times where you're going to have to let it resolve so that you can answer it later, but it is mostly recommended to prevent that threat before it deals more damage and applies more pressure towards you. Counters are there to prevent threats, which is why Standstill is so bloody amazing and which is why you can chain Standstills so effectively because what you're doing to the board is controlling it by preventing threats from doing harm towards you.

... I do understand how Landstill works, and actually there is no need to chain Landstill. I can't think of a game I lost that involved me resolving a Standstill and my opponent not having any manlands and a clear board.

But we were talking about Intuition for 3 counters. Whilst this is not always (maybe even rarely) the play to make, situations do occur where it is in fact the one and only right play. For example if you are facing a Storm combo deck and they try to go off and you see a way to stop them mid combo by all means, go grab 3 FoW's or 3 Stifle with your Intuition instead of just losing that game (assuming you don't hold any counters). I don't understand how one could disagree with this logic. It's either you lose or you play on and assuming you want to win, you will have to make that play sometimes.

[Citrus-God]

But we were talking about Intuition for 3 counters. Whilst this is not always (maybe even rarely) the play to make, situations do occur where it is in fact the one and only right play. For example if you are facing a Storm combo deck and they try to go off and you see a way to stop them mid combo by all means, go grab 3 FoW's or 3 Stifle with your Intuition instead of just losing that game (assuming you don't hold any counters). I don't understand how one could disagree with this logic. It's either you lose or you play on and assuming you want to win, you will have to make that play sometimes.

Everything you wanted Intuition to do the deck already does. For example, when playing Intuition for trip FoWs, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for trip Stifles, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for Ruins, EE, LftL, you should be casting Wish for Extirpate. I'm just saying, everything you want Cunning Wish to do, other cards can do better in it's place.

As for the Intuition for 3 FoWs, 3 Stifles thing, I agree, but there are better things to be used. Intuition is incredible at setting up a long term engine but requires a long term investment as well as extracting copies of desire cards from your deck.

[Mantis]

Everything you wanted Intuition to do the deck already does. For example, when playing Intuition for trip FoWs, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for trip Stifles, you should be running Cunning Wish. When Intuition for Ruins, EE, LftL, you should be casting Wish for Extirpate. I'm just saying, everything you want Cunning Wish to do, other cards can do better in it's place.

As for the Intuition for 3 FoWs, 3 Stifles thing, I agree, but there are better things to be used. Intuition is incredible at setting up a long term engine but requires a long term investment as well as extracting copies of desire cards from your deck.

Glad we can at least agree on that :).
Cunning Wish and Intuition essentially do the same thing I guess, but Intuition doesn't butcher your SB and you can grab winconditions. That said, I think it's still a bit metagame dependant. Because of the many Loam and Threshold decks in my metagame Intuition just seems a lot stronger. Against Loam decks you can grab the Tormods Crypt pile (I prefer a recursive crypt over Extirpate against a deck that uses it's graveyard so extensively), and against ******** you can get nontargetted removal to deal with the Nimble Mongeese.

That said, I would most certainly run Cunning Wish if it wasn't for Intuition, and if my metagame shifts I might even do so.

EDIT: I should not forget about the main reason that pleads for Intuition, namely that it allows you to essentially run 4 Life from the Loam.

[Citrus-God]

Glad we can at least agree on that :).
Cunning Wish and Intuition essentially do the same thing I guess, but Intuition doesn't butcher your SB and you can grab winconditions.

When you run Cunning Wish, all cards being ran can also be sided in post-board without much difficulty. I mean, your board is basically

4 Extirpates
2 Disenchant
1 FoF
5 Other random cards.

All of which can fit into the maindeck. Also, the main reason to run C-Wish is for Extirpate which are sided into the maindeck of some quantity. I havent never seen those being dead.

That said, I think it's still a bit metagame dependant. Because of the many Loam and Threshold decks in my metagame Intuition just seems a lot stronger. Against Loam decks you can grab the Tormods Crypt pile (I prefer a recursive crypt over Extirpate against a deck that uses it's graveyard so extensively), and against ******** you can get nontargetted removal to deal with the Nimble Mongeese.

Extirpate combats Loam and Threshold.

That said, I would most certainly run Cunning Wish if it wasn't for Intuition, and if my metagame shifts I might even do so.

I urge you to try Cunning Wish. It would make your games against your metagame so much more easier.

EDIT: I should not forget about the main reason that pleads for Intuition, namely that it allows you to essentially run 4 Life from the Loam.

Or you can run Cunning Wish and wish for Extirpate to get rid of Wasteland for good.

[Mental]

Why would you want to play 4 LftL, anyways?

The problem with Intuition is it forces you to play cards that are situational and bad without Intuition to maximize IT fully, like Crypt/Cycling Land, and when you play Intuition for anything but LFTL/Academy Ruins/EE, you're butchering your Maindeck.

Also, the situation you described against Combo is ridiculous. If you're so worried about beating combo, don't play a 3 mana instant, play Chalice in your board and more Stifles main. Personally, if I was playing a combo deck like FT and my opponent Intuitioned for FoW against me, I wouldn't mind much. Landstill is so slow I would just build back up and win with only fear of CSpell.

[Mantis]

@Mental:
I know, but against a competent FT player I feel like the matchup is pretty awful anyway. I usually use Intuition for 3x counter for situations where I am already mostly in control, just to ensure absolutely nothing can go wrong.
Also, Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck is not butchering my maindeck, seriously in Holland so many people run Loam decks. I can't really see any other cards that butcher my maindeck.

The reason I probably like Intuition so much is that it offers a lot of designing space and it really rewards creative play during a game. I know these arguments don't really make sense considering the competative nature of The Source, but it might act as a confounder (making me biased).
Yet, I strongly feel Intuition is not the wrong choice at all, but I have already gone to length about those arguments and I won't repeat myself.
Then again, by no means do I want to imply running with Cunning Wish is the wrong decision. I might make the switch some day but as for know I have really been happy Intuition, but I'm glad we can debate it's inclusion.

I would also like to bring up Vedalken Shackles. I've been testing that card as a 3-of and it's treated me well but nothing spectecular. If you can resolve it, it's basically an autowin versus Stompy variants, Deadguy and similar non-swarm aggro strategies. I feel like 3 copies might be too much and was more thinking of it as a 2-of. Is this card too situational or is it a reliable wincondition/disruption card?

[Mental]

@Mental:
I know, but against a competent FT player I feel like the matchup is pretty awful anyway. I usually use Intuition for 3x counter for situations where I am already mostly in control, just to ensure absolutely nothing can go wrong.
Also, Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck is not butchering my maindeck, seriously in Holland so many people run Loam decks. I can't really see any other cards that butcher my maindeck.

The reason I probably like Intuition so much is that it offers a lot of designing space and it really rewards creative play during a game. I know these arguments don't really make sense considering the competative nature of The Source, but it might act as a confounder (making me biased).
Yet, I strongly feel Intuition is not the wrong choice at all, but I have already gone to length about those arguments and I won't repeat myself.
Then again, by no means do I want to imply running with Cunning Wish is the wrong decision. I might make the switch some day but as for know I have really been happy Intuition, but I'm glad we can debate it's inclusion.

I would also like to bring up Vedalken Shackles. I've been testing that card as a 3-of and it's treated me well but nothing spectecular. If you can resolve it, it's basically an autowin versus Stompy variants, Deadguy and similar non-swarm aggro strategies. I feel like 3 copies might be too much and was more thinking of it as a 2-of. Is this card too situational or is it a reliable wincondition/disruption card?

I've played Shackles in the past but came to the conclusion that it was TERRIBLE, like, ABSOLUTELY AWFUL against Threshold. IF Threshold/Goyf isn't big in your meta, by all means play it.

FT does roll over Landstill, as you only have 8 outs to Chant, and they have 4 Chants, 1 Pate, and 7 Tutors + Cantrips. If I was playing FT and you went for Triple Counterspell, I would probably just Mystical/Deathwish for Extirpate and take all of them. But, then again, to each his own. This discussion has run its course.

[Tacosnape]

Not sure why, but if it's UGB, then you should be running Edict and EE. But in a deck like UWBG, you want to have EE because it can do more. I wasnt sure why Tacosnape cut the EEs for Edicts, but I'm pretty sure it was an alpha test build. I'm sure he'd leave it in if he keeps testing EE. Then again, I think he cut EE because it interferes with Jace.

I think you are probably right about the alpha build part. I run both EE and Jace and in 60+ games played I've only once had EE interfere with Jace. Usually if you have Jace out and are drawing tons of cards, you don't need to blow EE anyway.

I'd appreciate it if you both wouldn't assume you know what I'd do. My list up there is not an alpha test build by any means, and if I continued to test EE for another 800+ games, I'd still leave it out in favor of Diabolic Edict. But, then, clearly I'm the Landstill newbie in this thread, so carry on.

EE might do more, but it can't do everything Edict can, and it can't do anything with the efficiency of Edict. Edict is faster and keeps threats off of you. 4 Deeds, 1 C//P, and 8 Counters backed up by the deck's ridiculous draws should be enough to keep most artifacts/enchantments off of you, and a pair of Grips in the board can play cleanup in a pinch.

EDIT: Also, having your threat removal die to Stifle is an incredibly good way to lose to UGR Threshold. That "Oh, Landstill smashes Threshold anyway" thing only holds up to so much weakening before Threshold has a solid fight.

[Citrus-God]

I'd appreciate it if you both wouldn't assume you know what I'd do. My list up there is not an alpha test build by any means, and if I continued to test EE for another 800+ games, I'd still leave it out in favor of Diabolic Edict. But, then, clearly I'm the Landstill newbie in this thread, so carry on.

I also said that maybe you didnt run EE because EE interferes with Jace. The point I'm getting at is that it's natural to assume,. Us humans, assume, because it lacks reasoning in our view, so we conjure up reasonable possibilities to why it might been like that. Be glad we didnt claim witch and demand the incineration of all Diabolic Edicts.

EE might do more, but it can't do everything Edict can, and it can't do anything with the efficiency of Edict. Edict is faster and keeps threats off of you. 4 Deeds, 1 C//P, and 8 Counters backed up by the deck's ridiculous draws should be enough to keep most artifacts/enchantments off of you, and a pair of Grips in the board can play cleanup in a pinch.

'

But lacks a form of way to keep Enchantments/Artifacts clear early game. Like Counterbalance could give you headaches if you have Deed as your only answer because CB helps them in counter wars when you're trying to resolve Deed. At least EE offers additional outs and makes games for the Threshold player more difficult to handle.

EDIT: Also, having your threat removal die to Stifle is an incredibly good way to lose to UGR Threshold. That "Oh, Landstill smashes Threshold anyway" thing only holds up to so much weakening before Threshold has a solid fight.

Yes, but then you'll have a weaker Vial Goblin match-up pre-board then.

[Tacosnape]

But lacks a form of way to keep Enchantments/Artifacts clear early game. Like Counterbalance could give you headaches if you have Deed as your only answer because CB helps them in counter wars when you're trying to resolve Deed. At least EE offers additional outs and makes games for the Threshold player more difficult to handle.

No, it leaves Deed, Force, Counterspell, and Punishment for 2 as my only outs to Counterbalance. And Krosan Grip postboard.

Yes, but then you'll have a weaker Vial Goblin match-up pre-board then.

You're kidding. Diabolic Edict is a godsend against Vial Goblins and is sixteen times better in that matchup than Engineered Explosives could ever dream of being. Pernicious Deed and C//P will do the sweep-away-1-drops thing you want EE to do, and Edict will pick off Warchief and Piledriver as they come out. Then you Stifle/Counter/Force the Matrons/Ringleaders so they can't get any card advantage ever and win.

Edict can handle Lackey when you're on the play. So can EE, in theory, but it does it with one less mana, and you don't have to commit to it as your first play by leading with land, EE for 1. The extra mana gives you the flexibility to Brainstorm into the removal you need, or Swords the Lackey instead, saving the Edict for a Driver, Chief, or second Lackey.

EDIT: FWIW, I'm 9-0 against Goblins with this deck in tournaments and 0-1 piloting Goblins against my own build. It's even better now that Goblins packs more dead cards in the form of Warren Weirding. Postboard is so good against Goblins unless they pack Blood Moon that it hardly matters. Blue Blasts + Plagues + Mages on Grip if they run green = facewreckery.

[Citrus-God]

No, it leaves Deed, Force, Counterspell, and Punishment for 2 as my only outs to Counterbalance. And Krosan Grip postboard.

Counters are there to prevent CB from being resolved. They drop CB turn two, you cast C-Spell, they Daze. If you force, they'll force back. They have a better edge when casting cards like CB early game because they're designed to force crucial cards down early game. So FoW is better, C-Spell is alright, but Deeds and Punishment might be a little unreliable. Deeds are good answers to CB but requires some protection might even be CBed if against Moon Thresh and Crime can be CBed with Enforcer/Dragon.

You're kidding. Diabolic Edict is a godsend against Vial Goblins and is sixteen times better in that matchup than Engineered Explosives could ever dream of being. Pernicious Deed and C//P will do the sweep-away-1-drops thing you want EE to do, and Edict will pick off Warchief and Piledriver as they come out. Then you Stifle/Counter/Force the Matrons/Ringleaders so they can't get any card advantage ever and win.

I've had some great results with EE while playing UWG Landstill. The one reason they've won so many games for me is because it dismantles AEther Vial. I know Deed can do the same, while is amazing, but with EE, it can easily make this match-up much easier.

Edict can handle Lackey when you're on the play. So can EE, in theory, but it does it with one less mana, and you don't have to commit to it as your first play by leading with land, EE for 1. The extra mana gives you the flexibility to Brainstorm into the removal you need, or Swords the Lackey instead, saving the Edict for a Driver, Chief, or second Lackey.

Yes, but what are you going to do Turn 1 anyway? Not much against Goblins; just cast the EE for 1 and force the opponent to play around it. If he plays around it, that's one turn of nothingness on your opponent's turn. The more land drops you make, the more advantage and control you have over the board.

And Edict, imo, is terrible against Goblins because it just hits blanks like Matrons, Ringleaders, and Fanatics. You usually want removal to hit something important; like Piledrivers, Lackeys, or Chief. Edict could do that, but only post-Deed.

EDIT: FWIW, I'm 9-0 against Goblins with this deck in tournaments and 0-1 piloting Goblins against my own build. It's even better now that Goblins packs more dead cards in the form of Warren Weirding. Postboard is so good against Goblins unless they pack Blood Moon that it hardly matters. Blue Blasts + Plagues + Mages on Grip if they run green = facewreckery.

... wait... why would you side Mages in against Goblins? Isnt the point of Landstill to make half your opponent's deck dead against you, like removal? Even if you side in Meddling Mages as blockers, you would probably have to trade it with another Goblin a majority of the time.

I would agree with BEB and Plagues, but Mages are just random. Even here, I would much rather have Edict. And if they remove Plague, you still have BEB to fall back on and still maintain a strong game against Goblins. In fact, I dont recall a moment where I ever really needed E-Plague with 4c Landstill. Most games I played and won with was probably because of BEB and Stifle Post-Deed.

[Tacosnape]

And Edict, imo, is terrible against Goblins because it just hits blanks like Matrons, Ringleaders, and Fanatics. You usually want removal to hit something important; like Piledrivers, Lackeys, or Chief. Edict could do that, but only post-Deed.

No, it doesn't. Because you didn't let Matron and/or Ringleader resolve. If you did, and you didn't Stifle the trigger (In which case Deed kills them), then you probably lose. Fanatic gets swept away by Deed or Punishment for 1.

What's more, Edict gets its best use either before Matron or Ringleader would be out (Hitting a Chief/Driver), or after a Deed sweeps the board (Hitting whatever they drop). You have to approach the match with the mentality of assigning cards in your deck to deal with cards in theirs. Edict stops Warchief/Piledriver, and to a lesser degree things like Lackey.

... wait... why would you side Mages in against Goblins? Isnt the point of Landstill to make half your opponent's deck dead against you, like removal? Even if you side in Meddling Mages as blockers, you would probably have to trade it with another Goblin a majority of the time.

If you run 3+ Plagues, then you side in Meddling Mage to stop Krosan Grip, because Goblins sided out all of its Gempalm Incinerators and Warren Weirdings against you. It's not a necessary tactic, but it's a highly effective one. Mage can also name guys who can still be a problem under a single Plague, like Ringleader and Warchief.

EDIT: Obviously, you don't do this if you didn't see a Taiga in the first game.

[Citrus-God]

No, it doesn't. Because you didn't let Matron and/or Ringleader resolve. If you did, and you didn't Stifle the trigger (In which case Deed kills them), then you probably lose. Fanatic gets swept away by Deed or Punishment for 1.

They cast AEther Vial, you're trying to find a Deed. Only Stifle can stop them now.

What's more, Edict gets its best use either before Matron or Ringleader would be out (Hitting a Chief/Driver), or after a Deed sweeps the board (Hitting whatever they drop). You have to approach the match with the mentality of assigning cards in your deck to deal with cards in theirs. Edict stops Warchief/Piledriver, and to a lesser degree things like Lackey.

They usually wont be overextending. They're probably applying pressure with a couple Fanatics at this point.

If you run 3+ Plagues, then you side in Meddling Mage to stop Krosan Grip, because Goblins sided out all of its Gempalm Incinerators and Warren Weirdings against you. It's not a necessary tactic, but it's a highly effective one. Mage can also name guys who can still be a problem under a single Plague, like Ringleader and Warchief.

Even if they used a Grip to remove a Plague, you still have lots of plans to fall back on, like the Deed + Counters plan.