Well countertop is much better postboard since you can board out lands if you decide to stick with countertop. Against threshold I at least play with 23 lands postboard and the deck still ends up working out well in practice. I also board out even more lands against fetchland tendrils since FT can win at anytime.Originally Posted by Mental
Team Hammafist!
This was directed at Bardo.
And he just suggested those boarding plans because he's been playing Bardo's exact list for awhile now. It's not Bardo's response, but it is someone who has tested his deck extensively.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I have a question, i havent gone through each landstill forum but wouldnt gifts ungiven either as a wishboard target (what I have been testing) or as a MD replacement to FoF be a decent idea? I mean you could easly go
Gifts for
Life from the loam (1 of)
Eternal dragon (1 of)
mishras factory
wasteland
Or
Life from the loam(1 of)
EExplosives
mishras factory
acadamy ruins
All it would take would be like 2 card alterations or a 1 card different mana base. I could be wrong but it seems like gifts is what this deck wants card quality, not cards en mass. While it is a 2 for 1 its really a "go get 4 cards that win the game"
Also another question, has any one tested Rude awakening as a 1 of "I WIN NOW" card to prevent time from beating you?
Intuition is much better than Gifts Ungiven as it costs one less mana and you can also tutor for a counterspell or Deed.
For opinions on Intuition, look a page back as it is discussed in length. And while I still love it, the general consensus seems to be against Intuition.
Gifts does something intuition doesnt do though. it gives CA.
Also is RAwakaning worth it as a 1 of if you can wish for mystic tutor?
Well, you can't win them all. My suggestion isn't going to be anything earth-shattering: against Slide/Loam, you bring in Grips and Extirpates in place of Counterbalance, plus whatever's in the flex slots. Extirpate is a champ, mainly in removing LFTLs. Otherwise, you have a lot of ways to get their permanents into the bin (counters, Deed, EE, etc.)
Yeah, this has been one of the hardest things to settle in the design: the correct removal package. I like the 3/3 Deed/EE split, for some reasons that are easy to explain, some not; but every couple of weeks I bring in 2-3 Smothers/Edicts, and then remove them when I need the room and feel the removal is more of a luxury than necessity. I've been up in the air on the whole issue for over a year, so I can certainly see squeezing a few in. In my build, I still have that random Cunning Wish, that's the first slot I'd fill with a Diabolic Edict. But running a single Edict seems painfully random, and there are no other slots I feel like freeing up (maybe a land, maybe not).However I like running diabolic edicts in your UGB landstill since then you won't have to always blow up a deed at your own expense. Deed is too good of a card to waste on just one creature and this is relevant since decks like threshold can just ride on one creature ftw.
As for reluctance to Deed away a single guy, if it's the right play for that stage of the game, then that's what you have to do. With a card that powerful and expensive, it's an easy card to want to get greedy with, but that often leads to incorrect plays. I've lost more than a couple of games against Affinity, for instance, when the right move is to drop and pop Deed for 0 on turn 3 to remove their lands, but have held off an extra turn to kill that random Vial or Disciple, etc. and lost. Sometimes, the weaker-seeming play is the correct one, so I wouldn't be too shy about killing a single guy with Deed if your strategy supports that play.
You have enough blue spells that the ability to pitch Control Magic over Vedalken Shackles shouldn't weigh that heavily. Shackles is straight up a more powerful spell in Landstill, though Control Magic has its perks too.I also have been trying the hatfield's control magic tech in the UGB landstill board as well. In my testing control magic has been awesome against threshold and it's more flexible then vedalken shackles since you can pitch to force of will too. Definite props to the hatfields for that tech.
You'd be surprised. Statistically, I'm not sure how and what would be different if you're relying on blind reveals with CB and 17-23 lands, but you hit enough of the important spells at 24 that the CB/Top package still feels worth the slots.How is Counterbalance in combination with 25 lands?
My CB list should have 24 land; the 4c-non-CB list has 25.
Seems pretty bad without Top.
I've messed with every funky land that struck my fancy (Ruins, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Treetop Village, Tolaria West, Faerie Conclave) and can safely say you don't you need them. They're cool, but recurring EE is overrated, extremely intensive on your mana and rarely relevant. I could see it being more of use in the control mirror, if you were recurring Crucible, Mindslaver or Shackles for inevitability, otherwise Ruins/EE is one of those combos that looks awesome on paper, but is rarely meaningful. I'd rather just have land that produces colored mana or a Wasteland.Also, do you ever miss Academy Ruins? You are playing 3 EE.
FT is one of the few decks I would board out a land against; otherwise, I rarely want to reduce my chances of have four land on the board on turn 4.Well countertop is much better postboard since you can board out lands if you decide to stick with countertop. Against threshold I at least play with 23 lands postboard and the deck still ends up working out well in practice. I also board out even more lands against fetchland tendrils since FT can win at anytime.
Re: Gifts. Sure, it might get you +1 CA, but at what cost? It costs four mana, doesn't win the game and most versions of Landstill aren't designed to take advantage of Gifts. It would take an overhaul of the deck to make it worthwhile.Gifts does something intuition doesnt do though. it gives CA.
Also is RAwakaning worth it as a 1 of if you can wish for mystic tutor?
As for Rude Awakening, dunno. Seems cute, but I don't see it helping you win your rougher match-ups.
I am with bardo on this one considering no matter how hard you test your still going to have good and bad matchups.
The 3 deed, 3 smother/edict, 3 EE config. can be a versatile removal package since you can cover alot of ground. However the 3 deed, 3 ee, 2 vedalken shackles setup can work if your a compotent player. In other words, the less options you have the more brain work you have to consider if you want to win.Yeah, this has been one of the hardest things to settle in the design: the correct removal package. I like the 3/3 Deed/EE split, for some reasons that are easy to explain, some not; but every couple of weeks I bring in 2-3 Smothers/Edicts, and then remove them when I need the room and feel the removal is more of a luxury than necessity. I've been up in the air on the whole issue for over a year, so I can certainly see squeezing a few in. In my build, I still have that random Cunning Wish, that's the first slot I'd fill with a Diabolic Edict. But running a single Edict seems painfully random, and there are no other slots I feel like freeing up (maybe a land, maybe not).
I agree with you and you make relevant points.As for reluctance to Deed away a single guy, if it's the right play for that stage of the game, then that's what you have to do. With a card that powerful and expensive, it's an easy card to want to get greedy with, but that often leads to incorrect plays. I've lost more than a couple of games against Affinity, for instance, when the right move is to drop and pop Deed for 0 on turn 3 to remove their lands, but have held off an extra turn to kill that random Vial or Disciple, etc. and lost. Sometimes, the weaker-seeming play is the correct one, so I wouldn't be too shy about killing a single guy with Deed if your strategy supports that play.
Both shackles and control magic have their arguements. In my opinion, shackles is much better for your deck then control magic considering you run less creature control options. I run more removal in UGB landstill so that is why I would take control magic over shackles.You have enough blue spells that the ability to pitch Control Magic over Vedalken Shackles shouldn't weigh that heavily. Shackles is straight up a more powerful spell in Landstill, though Control Magic has its perks too.
Besides you run like 8 fetchlands so your bound to obtain a more relevant topdeck CB then running less then the X number of fetches. You also don't always have to utilize countertop religiously either instead you get to choose which strategy is more efficient at the time.You'd be surprised. Statistically, I'm not sure how and what would be different if you're relying on blind reveals with CB and 17-23 lands, but you hit enough of the important spells at 24 that the CB/Top package still feels worth the slots.
Yep, you can actually transform UGB landstill into UGB threshold against combo. Your deck is far from being a one dimensional deck.FT is one of the few decks I would board out a land against; otherwise, I rarely want to reduce my chances of have four land on the board on turn 4.
I'd say your much better off running fact or fiction instead if your going that route. Although Jace seems like a worthy inclusion since it can be quite powerful with SDT in UGB landstill.Re: Gifts. Sure, it might get you +1 CA, but at what cost? It costs four mana, doesn't win the game and most versions of Landstill aren't designed to take advantage of Gifts. It would take an overhaul of the deck to make it worthwhile.
Last edited by Mister Agent; 05-13-2008 at 12:56 AM.
Team Hammafist!
Obviously there's a lot of variation in those lists, but as a general rule I'd say you want to keep Counterbalance in against Loam, since alongside Extirpate it's your best plan against their namesake, which can really ruin your day alone (both by drawing three cards per turn, and by recurring Wasteland on your greedy manabase).
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
What do you guys think of Bitter Blossom? It's a game ending threat under a Standstill and it should be able to hold off a Tarmogoyf or Goblin(s) for awhile. It's anti-synergistic with Pernicious Deed, but it's more of a tempo card that doubles as a finisher or even just an "Oops, I win" card any way. I definitely think it has some potential, unlike Garruk, Hoofprints and DoJ it actually comes down fast enough to be relevant against Goblins
The best removal in Landstill is by far Pernicious Deed. Not only deed destroys Bitterblossom, but it also destroys the Faeries. This, alone, should be a sufficient argument to not play Bitterblossom.
However, i do agree that Bitterblossom is a good card and might fit into this deck (making my statement wrong, but that is of no importance). You just have to test it, but personnally, i am not convinced.
I think Tarmogoyf (if not already in your list) combined with Tombstalker should be enough to hold back opponents threats. This, coupled with your deeds, should be enough, i believe
Robert
It just seems like LFTL is the only thing you're likely to hit with Counterbalance and you really want the slots for Extirpate. Maybe though, it isn't a match-up that I've test, to be honest.
RE: Bitterblossom. Yeah, I was discussing this with TopGun a couple of weeks ago. Deed by damned, I still intend to test it out.
Re: Tombstalker. He's been in and out of my list for months, but the BB in the cost can be surprisingly difficult to hit when you really want to. Actually, double anything (WW, GG, BB) that isn't blue (and sometimes even then) can be prohibitive with the numer of colorless sources Landstill runs. And not being able to play your cards pretty much sucks.
Before we go back to the whole annoying gifts discussion again(which last time we dismissed the idea because it doesn't work in landstill, I hope this isn't the same person who brought it up last time)..... Does anyone see any hopeful prospects in the new set that could be new additions to landstill, many things I saw were not helpful but I'm just one person, maybe someone else has found something that might work.
The more you guys explore the BalanceTop route, the less this becomes Landstill. The fact is that you're moving towards Chase Rare Control (not a bad thing) or something along those lines. There isn't any real reason to run Standstill along side SDT, Brainstorm and possibly Confidant (which is better than SDT and Standstill.
Before you can choose a kill condition you have to know what it can handle. Shroud doesnt do anything really. I'm liking stuff like Tog, Goyf, Stalker and Blossom in those slots, and strongly suggest 3-4 Vedalken Shackles.
In my testing from playing 3 different decks very intensivly(landstill, red thresh, rock), I have found that landstill should stay completly away from countertop, with countertop, you pretty much take out deed and explosives, your 2 best board sweepers. it also makes it harder for you because landstill runs more land than anyother deck, soo it makes it harder to find the right converted mana cost. Also unless you play it after turn 4-5 you really have no way to protect it unlike thresh which has daze and such. Landstill just doesn't have the right mana cost curve to play the card plain and simple, if you want to play countertop, play thresh.
Also, whats with the talk of throwing in tons of creatures, Yea I think landstill needs addition of goyf or stalker, but not both, usually landstill sticks with 6-8 creatures in factory and such, going more than that just pulls away from the point of landstill. Landstill shouldn't need a bunch of creatures to win, it has sooooo many answers to everything that a lone mishra's factory is enough alot of the times.
And the whole bitterblossom talk, Anything that interferes with deed, should not be in 4c landstill, those cards are for the non deed versions.
Meh. I've played the deck with and without Top, Deed, EE and Counterbalance and think you're selling Top/CB short. I agree that the approach to the deck and certain strategies shift, but it should not be discarded out of hand. In actuality, nuking your CB with Deed or EE does not occur with the regularity that would tell you to keep the two cards out of the same deck. It's a fringe occurrence and one that is avoided by playing the deck properly.
Actually, CB/Top Landstill, such as the Vorosh deck listed above, pounds the hell out of Thresh.Landstill just doesn't have the right mana cost curve to play the card plain and simple, if you want to play countertop, play thresh.
A single Factory is also glacially slow at winning the game and gives your opponent a lot of time to turn things around and gain advantage.Landstill shouldn't need a bunch of creatures to win, it has sooooo many answers to everything that a lone mishra's factory is enough alot of the times.
Again, maybe Bitterblossom is crap here, but I think it's worth exploring. By your logic, no deck should run both Deed and other non-land permanents. A survey of the great decks of MtG's past indicate this is not the case. If a certain strategy works and helps improves your weak and already favorable match-ups, a closed-minded approach to powerful cards is not the best position.And the whole bitterblossom talk, Anything that interferes with deed, should not be in 4c landstill, those cards are for the non deed versions.
Well the reason why I like Countertop in landstill is because it can act as a buffer in quite a few matchups. I see countertop as a cushion more then a win-more utility combo in landstill.
As for the deed vs non-land permanent debate I'd say it highly depends on how you play the deck really. I mean you don't always need to play CB and then deed just because you can. Your just much better off playing Bardo's deck by ear.
Your not getting at the point of what I am saying, Bitterblossom is easily blown up by your own deed and explosives because of the cost, it makes you take damage for a 1/1 that is easily removed by the deed and it only blocks 1 thing which doesn't help in any matchup really other than possibly thresh if done right. You have to look at the card from a certain perspecitive, landstill has some problems with goblins if you don't draw the right stuff, which bitterblossom is horrible against goblins and by putting this in the deck, it takes away the chances of drawing the things you need. Next it makes you take damage, which alot of times against any aggro deck unless you get a god hand, you will have to take some damage over a couple of turns before you can stabalize, which in my opinion taking more damage would hurt the deck.
When I said that it wasn't right for landstill I ment that this card is not right for landstill, not any nonland permanent(which this isnt true either because deed can't hit planeswalkers.) Im saying that it is too much of a contradictory to deed and explosives for it to work, landstill doesn't need blockers that just die and don't kill anything of theirs,(this is why mutavault never hit the deck even thou everyone boasted that it would) landstill works because it can wipe the board, swords their main guy from the game, counter the things in the way and gain card advantage. by bring blockers, all your doing is blocking 1 tarmogoyf, which you token can easily be burned, explosived, and really any little thing and their goyf will still be there. I Myself play a landstill with goyf, deed and explosives main, and any skilled landstill player knows how to play around it soo you don't blow up too much of your own shit, but is it really worth it to open 3 slots for a card that doesn't have the ability that soo many other cards can do in the spot? What I'm saying really is, in what situation would you like a bitterblossom over anything else in the deck? If your looking for some kind of kill mech you should try garruk, overall its a better card.
Last edited by landstill101; 05-13-2008 at 06:59 PM. Reason: bad typing error
Actually Bitterblossom can be quite good against goblins even as a defensive specialist. Considering bb can buy you time until your able to stabilize with engineered plague or some other relevant utility. Also bitterblossom can be stellar in the mid to late game as well since it can serve like a psuodo-doj.
As for Garruck, he seems alright in UGB landstill since he can be a good finisher in the late stages. However, Garruck doesn't serve well under counterbalance and the cost is double green which can be a problem. I'd rather run more removal and/or card draw instead and Garruck can not provide either.
By your reasoning, bittberblossom is worse than garruk, it doesn't draw cards, it doesnt remove anything and atleast garruk can untap lands to help with things and can produce blockers that can actually kill something, and has a finisher which helps.
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