[Deck] UBGx Landstill

[Nihil Credo]

I wouldn't play Dismantling Blow in a 4c Version: Seed Spark is just so much better as the two chump blockers are actually relevant in many matchups whereas you won't be paying the kicker for Dismantling Blow very often.

Just because I like coming up with random silver bullets: Mystic Melting comes to mind as a more affordable CA Disenchant effect.

[Van Phanel]

@Nihil Credo: Possible, still I'd agree with DiF that Seed Spark is probably better.

@undone: Yes, for being the aggro player Tarmogoyf main would make sense. However you don't plan to be the aggro player. Ever. You just do it when those matchups come up. Still you can run Goyf if you want to. Never run it together with Humility however.

It can be correct to run 3 Meddling Mages as well. He still does his job when drawn later, as opposed to (for example) Leyline which should always be a four or none-of. Of course you want to draw it as early as possible but you only have 15 sb-slots. Marius Hausmann (Wasteland) is currently running the following sb:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Seed Spark (I think. Might be Blow)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

He plays Leyline because it helps even more in the really bad matchups (like Loam) because it doesn't only shut down their recursion, it also shuts down what they want to recur. On the other hand it can be Gripped, but between Humility, Crucible, Deed, EE your opponent will run out of Grips long before you run out of Artifacts/ Enchantments to destroy.

@b4r0n:
What you name against combo depends on the situation. There is no general plan. Against TES Chant, Burning Wish and LED (in no particular order) are possible targets. But it can also be correct to name Shusher. I actually had a game against Bryant Cook during the Source-tournament where I (correctly) named D-Returns and it won me the game where anything else maybe wouldn't have.

Generally: Don't name a win-option but disrupt their engine!

Also against Solidarity Brain Freeze is the worst possibility. A turn-2 Mage should always name High Tide, with Follow Ups naming Cunning Wish and (if you think they boarded it) Wipe Away. Brain Freeze generally is a losig plan, as they'll play through your counters, resolve three Meditates, bounce your Mage and then win or just Stroke you for 40+. Also Solidarity is not a metagameconsideration unless it is heavily played at your local meta otherwise we'd play another deck.

@undone: I am in a team with Marius Hausmann (Wasteland), so I naturally learned a lot about landstill.

You are pretty much correct about the Wish-targets except that you seem to not play Enlightened. Listen to DiF, he knows what he does.

- Van

[diffy]

Leyline

Isn't Wheel of Sun and Moon just the better option? It is easier on the Mana (double black isn't the easiest to come by) and cheaper if you don't have it in your opening hand especially since you don't want to mulligan into it in the Loam matchups. I think that being able to cast it at half the price of Leyline is worth the loss of the occasional tempo advantage that Leyline offers especially since Loam decks don't do that much in the first few turns anyway.

Just in case anyone wonders: Leyline/Wheel are played over Planar Void because they both are replacement effects and not triggered abilities which is useful against Countryside Crusher (who still would get counters under Planar Void).

[Van Phanel]

I agree. It is even possible to run only 3 Wheels and readd the fourth Meddling Mage or some other card then (even though I like the thought of 4 Wheels)

Maybe even a 3 Leyline, 1 Planar Void/ Wheel split would make sense here with Tutor in mind. As I don't actively play the deck, I can't tell you more however. I'll try to get Marius to answer here.

Edit: Yeah right, I knew there was a reason. It was just too obvious to see for us. Maybe playing too much U-W-b has made us forget about Deed :) Thx Wasteland

[Wasteland]

Concerning Planar Void / Sun and Moon Wheel: You can surely pack theese cards in a UWb Landstill, in my 4c build i wound never run theese cause of the own pernicious deeds.
greetz, Marius

[Osse]

Don't you side the deeds out v Ichy, or blow it at 1 or 0? I guess the Loam argument is fine, but iunno. You can also target yourself with Wheel if he goes wasteland recursion so it might be worth it. Sorry this isn't more in-depth.

[Bardo]

Concerning Planar Void / Sun and Moon Wheel: You can surely pack theese cards in a UWb Landstill, in my 4c build i wound never run theese cause of the own pernicious deeds.
greetz, Marius

I'm with Osse here in struggling to find a match-up where you would, post-board, typically blow Deed for more than 0 or 1. What am I missing?

[landstill101]

With the whole sideboard, lately I haven't been bringing in mmage(mainly because i haven't seen any combo.) But I haven't seen a reason where taking out mainboard slots for them when the mainboard slot is better. The one card I have liked is extirpate which really helps against landstills 1 bad problem recursion, But lately my meta has been filled with a couple of cards that extirpate could not stop such as stronghold, academy ruins, treetop village, etc, soooo I added pithing needle in my board and learned to blow my deeds right and it has actually won me more games than I can remember, I bring them in for:
wasteland
stronghold
dust bowl
academy ruins
fetches(if they are really that bad of a player and forget to sac)
vial
manlands(the ones I don't use)
rashidan port
sadly zuran orb
any many other odd things that rucur or just hurt..

Right now this is my sideboard:(sorry no c wish here)
2 meddling mage
3 extirpate
3 engineered plague
3 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
2 beb

[landstill101]

Quick question, since a couple of the last posts have been talking about the ichorid matchup, are you guys having problems with it??? a deed laughs in the face, and explosives works great, and if you play against lists that have akroma in it, they can still be swords or countered. 4c Landstill is one of the few blue decks that don't have a bad matchup against ichorid because of the power of the other 3 colors, this should be an easy matchup that doesn't need specific sideboard slots, extirpate is more than enough, and even mmage can work to beat them.

[Mister Agent]

Ichorid can still be a hard matchup even if your prepared for it postboard. I mean Ichorid is still a Deck to beat for a reason. A good strategy when playing against ichorid is probably naming "illusion" with engineered plague which will cancel out their narcomoebas. Considering narcomoeba is one of their piece outlets when going off.

[Omega]

However, if the bridges are in their graveyard, even naming the narcomoeba will give them zombies, and eventually, they will win...

Robert

[Mister Agent]

However, if the bridges are in their graveyard, even naming the narcomoeba will give them zombies, and eventually, they will win...

Robert

That's why I said it wasn't an easy matchup even if your prepared for it. Depending on the situation engineered plague can buy you sometime though and your better off supplementing plague with other hate like extirpate.

[Wasteland]

Terravore / Countryside Crusher / Seismic Assault have all a cc of 3 - you need the deed on 3 there...

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Terravore / Countryside Crusher / Seismic Assault have all a cc of 3 - you need the deed on 3 there...

Thats right.
I play a 4c list with cunning wish and of course the platinum angel aka humility.

My Board:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
1 Seed Spark
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields

I prefer extirpate as gave control. You don't need it on your start hand like the Leyline AND it is a wish target and improves your loam matchup preboard (for me: extirpate is the only reason to play cunning wish instead of enlight. tutor for example).
I would like to speak about some boarding plans, cause I saw several posts, that mention: Boarding meddling mages against other matchup except combo.
Can u give concrete examples? Which matchups? What comes in/out?
For example I don't board mages against loam, except land.dec.

greetz

[undone]

I play ichorid and I will tell you naming ilusion is pretty irrelivant. Name horror and simply stifle narcomebas triggers. Also as an ichorid player I can safely say that UGbw Landstill Is my hardest non combo matchup. Swords+ plagues target Ichorid/horror, Counterspells target dread return, deed/explosives set at 0, stifle on narcos is a pain, and stifling cephilid sage is just awfule for us.

Also play non hateable hate vs ichorid, extripate and faerie macab or offle snout(snout is better) seriously 3 snout 4 extirpate compleatly beat the deck especialy with brainstorm and force to slow the deck down. But then there are still those games where they go off through a force of will on turn 1.

[diffy]

I prefer extirpate as gave control. You don't need it on your start hand like the Leyline AND it is a wish target and improves your loam matchup preboard (for me: extirpate is the only reason to play cunning wish instead of enlight. tutor for example).

That's why there still is one Extirpate in Wasteland' board... Leylines are just complements.
If there are no Loam decks in your meta, going with Extirpates over Leylines is a plainly reasonable move as they are more broadly usable (NQG, Control, Combo etc.).

I would like to speak about some boarding plans, cause I saw several posts, that mention: Boarding meddling mages against other matchup except combo.
Can u give concrete examples? Which matchups? What comes in/out?
For example I don't board mages against loam, except land.dec.

Against most control decks you have to be the aggro player because you have too many dead cards (removal), even after boarding - Meddling Mage helps a lot with this. He's also useful to protect you of a single card that will otherwise always need to be addressed with a counter because it would win on the spot if left unchecked. Setting a Mage on said card will then give you more time and security to accomplish your main gameplan for the matchup.
There are plenty of matchups where Meddling Mage is great... some examples:

• Meddling Mage can come in against Mono-U Control to name Back to Basics and support your clock
• He can also come in against Stax to name Armageddon which is their best shot at winning if it resolves even if you have the game under control otherwise
• I also board him against Aggro Loam to name Devastating Dreams once I have shut down their Loam-recursion engine or to shut down their Engine in the first place (if you happen to not have Extirpate).

[b4r0n]

@b4r0n:
What you name against combo depends on the situation. There is no general plan. Against TES Chant, Burning Wish and LED (in no particular order) are possible targets. But it can also be correct to name Shusher. I actually had a game against Bryant Cook during the Source-tournament where I (correctly) named D-Returns and it won me the game where anything else maybe wouldn't have.

Generally: Don't name a win-option but disrupt their engine!

Also against Solidarity Brain Freeze is the worst possibility. A turn-2 Mage should always name High Tide, with Follow Ups naming Cunning Wish and (if you think they boarded it) Wipe Away. Brain Freeze generally is a losig plan, as they'll play through your counters, resolve three Meditates, bounce your Mage and then win or just Stroke you for 40+. Also Solidarity is not a metagameconsideration unless it is heavily played at your local meta otherwise we'd play another deck.

If you name win conditions with Mage, doesn't this effectively slow down the combo player by making them search for removal? For example, naming Tendrils against TES makes their Infernal Tutors and LEDs useless, and negates the usefulness of their first Burning Wish (since they have to use it to find removal). Naming Wish or LED simply forces them to go about winning in a different way. Thus, it seems better to shut off the win condition and just defend the Mage for 10 turns (or less).

For Solidarity, it seems like they can beat you even without High Tide, by Brain Freezing you over the course of several turns. You have no way of defending against such a "slow roll" strategy other than Mage (or possibly Stifle, if you run it). However, you can defend against High Tide by countering it and preventing them from getting their engine going.

But you probably have more experience with the deck than I do, so I'll defer to your expertise; it just seems to me that it would be better to stop storm win conditions with Mage, and fight over the engine with counterspells.

[landstill101]

If you name win conditions with Mage, doesn't this effectively slow down the combo player by making them search for removal? For example, naming Tendrils against TES makes their Infernal Tutors and LEDs useless, and negates the usefulness of their first Burning Wish (since they have to use it to find removal). Naming Wish or LED simply forces them to go about winning in a different way. Thus, it seems better to shut off the win condition and just defend the Mage for 10 turns (or less).

For Solidarity, it seems like they can beat you even without High Tide, by Brain Freezing you over the course of several turns. You have no way of defending against such a "slow roll" strategy other than Mage (or possibly Stifle, if you run it). However, you can defend against High Tide by countering it and preventing them from getting their engine going.

But you probably have more experience with the deck than I do, so I'll defer to your expertise; it just seems to me that it would be better to stop storm win conditions with Mage, and fight over the engine with counterspells.

When it comes to mmage, it really comes down to what deck your playing, if it is 4c landstill then you would easily name tendrils because you have soooo many ways to stop empty of the warrens that it makes the match easy but if your not playing landstill then naming tendrils is a waste of a mmage because they just laugh and get goblins and win the next turn instead. Against solidarity(which in my opinion is one of the worst combo decks right now) is actually really easy to stop if you name high tide, mainly because high tide takes out many of their draws because they don't have enough mana. Naming brainfreeze is worthless mainly because they can just cunning wish to bounce the creature and they usually have enough mana because of high tide.

[undone]

Or just name cunning wish, then name Brainfreeze. But honestly recursion seems to be our worst matchup, A question I have Has thoughtsieze been tested. Seems like its a great 4 of as additional counterspells because It stops storm even more, it makes the threshold matchup even better, and ironicaly helps in the ichorid matchup (YOINK TO THE GAS) Grabbing the recurison before it matters then extirpating it prevents it from winning more easily

[Van Phanel]

Rest assured that (at least since the addition of Extirpate against recursion) Solidarity is the worst matchup Cunning Landstill has by far. Whoever doesn't believe that, feel free to contact me via pm and we'll play it out (I'm pretty busy this week but after Sunday it should be possible to find a time to play). I'd really wonder if you could win more than 1 out of 10 matches. You only ever win this matchup if they struggle with finding lands or you have a draw with like 2 Meddling Mage and 3 counters (and even that sometimes isn't enough)

That said, more about relevant matchups namely TES/ Fetchland Tendrils:

Yes naming a wincondition slows them down. But as they have so much protection (Chant + Shusher/ Chant + Extirpate) and so many solutions to Mage (Red Blast + SB Pyroclasm/bounce + Sudden Death(sometimes)) they will eventually find a way to kill/ temporarily remove it before going off more often than not. Also, be prepared for Empty the Warrens + Chant. Naming Chant is the thing I'd do with a counter in hand as it gives you a reasonable shot at stopping them. Shusher is a creature, so getting rid of it shouldn't be that hard. Against FT consider naming Extirpate as well.

Generally speaking there are two different things to consider when naming something:
a) What would annoy you most at the moment/ What will help them the most? More often than not this is Chant, but if you have no creatureremoval this can be Shusher as well.
b) What are they most likely to have/ What are you sure that they have? Seen a Mystical by FT? Name what they searched, there is a reason why they searched it. TES just Wished for something/ Infernaled for something without Hellbent? Name it. Being able to read your opponent is huge here if they didn't show you something.

Still remember that there is no general plan, the correct naming always depends on the circumstances.