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Thread: Counter-Top strategy

  1. #1
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    Counter-Top strategy

    Is there a thread like this already? If so, point me to it and lock this up.

    I've never played with CounterTop in a deck before and was curious as to the "tricks of the trade" if you will.

    Assuming you're running the full Ponder/Brainstorm package I'm just curious as when you use which and how?

    In otherwords, say I drop a first turn top. I also have a BS and/or Ponder in my opening hand as well. On your turn 2, would you untap your single land and immediately spin the top before your draw step or would draw normally and then Ponder/BS assuming you have to dig? I understand that every situation requires different decisions. ie do you have a second land drop, do you have a decent 2 drop, do you have a Fetch in hand so that you can shuffle away a shitty spin, ect.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that during the few games I've played with the engine, I've found myself sitting there with one or more BS/Ponder and a Top on the table and I'm never really sure if I should be spinning the Top or using the cantrip. Without a shuffling effect at hand it seems redundant to me.

    I dunno, does that make any sense? Is the question even answerable or is just up to experience and the current situation? I guess I was just looking for general guidelines. I wouldn't even ask and just do my own thing. Generally my own thing turns out to be wrong, so I figured I'd give it shot.

    -Also, what is the right number of 1/2/3cc spells recomended for having the optimal results against more top teir decks?

    -I usually scribble down my top 3 cards or I end up forgetting the order. Does anyone else have that problem?

    Thanks.
    In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.

  2. #2

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    It all depends on hands

    If i have a 1 land hand with cantrip and top. I would prefer using Ponder to try finding another land (or brainstorm/portent)

    If i have a 2 land hand WITHOUT counterspell (force/daze), i would much rather use Ponder/Brainstorm to find a counterspell

    If i have a 2 land hand that is decent (force/daze), i am not sure, but i guess i can play Sensei

    If i have 2 land hand with counterbalance, obviously, sensei is a good choice.


    Once Sensei is on the table, you can usually just spin at the end of your opponent's turn to look at the top 3 cards and draw at your turn. If you have a hand with only a Sensei (as a "draw"), if you actually kept that hand, yes i would spin at upkeep (but only if you have no 2cc drop that is essential). Dont forget that ponder allows you to draw, where Sensei's just allow you to check the top 3. You can Sensei, and then use ponder as a shuffle effect or to draw something. You usually dont want to tap your sensei's to draw, unless it is to get an answer.
    Brainstorm is simply too power. It gets you 3 cards (if you have 2 to put back). It is played for different reasons :)

    My memory isnt the best, but i do remember easily the top 3 cards. You can "write"' it down if necessary.


    Assuming we are playing a "ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh list"
    1cc 10-16 (4 brainstorm/ponder, 3 sensei's, possibly portent/swords to plowshare, lighting bolt)
    2cc 10-14 (4 tarmogoyf/daze/counterbalance, possibly smother/ fire/ice /dark confidant)
    3cc `more likely 0 preboard

    Robert

  3. #3
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    That's very helpful, thanks Omega.

    I guess most of skills involved in playing optimally are through trial and error. I'm more of a "turn it sideways" guy. I've been trying to step away from the more "mindless aggro" route and play decks that are more skill intensive. Sometimes I get flustered and just sit there staring at my hand though, unable to come up with the "correct" play. It sure is a lot easier to just drop a creature and enter the attck step.

    1cc 10-16 (4 brainstorm/ponder, 3 sensei's, possibly portent/swords to plowshare, lighting bolt)
    2cc 10-14 (4 tarmogoyf/daze/counterbalance, possibly smother/ fire/ice /dark confidant)
    3cc `more likely 0 preboard
    Assuming it's not Thresh, should these numbers be generally followed? In other words having less than 10 2cc spells would not be advised?
    In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.

  4. #4

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    guess most of skills involved in playing optimally are through trial and error. I'm more of a "turn it sideways" guy. I've been trying to step away from the more "mindless aggro" route and play decks that are more skill intensive. Sometimes I get flustered and just sit there staring at my hand though, unable to come up with the "correct" play. It sure is a lot easier to just drop a creature and enter the attck step.
    More skill intesive decks are generaly combo. (people claim thresh and such require skill but no offence after playing combo decks into the ground I can confidently say they are all childs play by comparison. Decks like TES, Solidaridy, IPop negation, Ichorid *well less so on ichorid but still*, and even Breakfast.)

    If you learn to play a bunch of combo decks it makes picking up a deck and making a out with a win with it easy. The decks that are skill intesive are generaly decks that have no or nearly no margin of error. These decks are almost always the most powerful (See TES, no worse then 50/50 with any deck) HOWEVER playing the deck correctly is nigh impossible.

    IF you want to learn a countertop skill intensive deck I would recommend Not quite survival and UGB landstill. Both have countertop and are not threshold (Despite its hype, it is easier to pilot then people think. Threshold is not good or bad. It simply does the same aggro/control amount every single game.)

    And if you really want to just turn em sideways. Play R/x Goblins, its good, fast and REAAAAAAAALY strong.
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  5. #5

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Well, I don't know if "no margin of error" is necessarily the sign of a skill intensive deck, but usually the most skill intensive decks are the ones that require you to navigate thru' multiple choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Breathweapon, I regret saying this but ... I've been liking you more and more every day.

  6. #6

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Exactly, the more decisions you have to make with a single given hand/board position, the more complicated it becomes.

    Margin of error increases difficulties too, since the less margin of error you have, the less amount of "correct" plays exist in that decision making tree. With less margins of error, even if you don't make the most optimal decision, sometimes the brute strength of your cards can push through for the win.

    I think you just need to practice more with the deck. If you are new to Threshold, I wouldn't be worried just yet about tightening your plays on top/bs/ponder, instead, worry about which card you should FoW, what hands to keep, when to what card, etc. It also helps if you have a playtesting partner, and you guys both just play open handed while discussing about the most optimal play both of you can make.

  7. #7
    Painter's Servant
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    undone: It actually is combo. It's a Servant deck. Other than ProsBloom like 100 years ago, I've never played combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apex View Post
    Exactly, the more decisions you have to make with a single given hand/board position, the more complicated it becomes.
    I have to agree. For instance when having an active Top in play and a hand full of cantrips I almost have too many choices. When you play a deck without (or very minor) deck manipulation you just make the best decisions based off what you have. That's all you can do.

    I think you just need to practice more with the deck. If you are new to Threshold, I wouldn't be worried just yet about tightening your plays on top/bs/ponder, instead, worry about which card you should FoW, what hands to keep, when to what card, etc.
    Good points, but I'll direct back to the first part of you post above. With so many options it's even harder to decide what is a good hand to keep. I find a deck with 7 Fetchs, 8 cantrips, Tops, ect, I can keep a one land hand more often than not. I guess that's consistancy. Considering I'm coming off a more mulligan oriented Stompy deck, it's a big adjustment.
    In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.

  8. #8

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Honestly the thing is. Top+ cantrips are redundant. You want to use top untill it is destroyed. Most of the time it is based on the MU.

    Painters servant is unique in that it may have a combo win, but its actualy a control deck that slaps down the "WIN RIGHT NOW" combo. So realisitcaly play it like a control deck. Think "what can my opponent do" just run them out of cards and counters then auto win. This seems simple but really it means using cantrips to find answers and top to find combo peices (Because combo peices can be found slower and you need to answer threats NOW)
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  9. #9

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    "Assuming it's not Thresh, should these numbers be generally followed? In other words having less than 10 2cc spells would not be advised?"

    Usually, yes. The reason why counter/top is so powerful is that almost all legacy decks run an insane amount of 1/2cc cards. Thus, having a good number of 1cc and 2cc cards is good and allows you to abuse the counter/top engine.
    3cc is not important. Postboard, you usually want to keep a 3cc card on top of your library (if you have the mana obviously) just in case opponent has Krosan Grip. Obviously, good opponent will usually avoid gripping when you have a 3cc
    Assuming you are playing force of will, 5cc is possible, but almost always useless.

    I am not sure about all that skill talking. Combo certainly requires skill. ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh do require skill, no matter what people may think. In fact, all decks require a certain amount of skill, if you want to play it optimally

    Robert

  10. #10
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    In otherwords, say I drop a first turn top. I also have a BS and/or Ponder in my opening hand as well.
    Just for reference if your opening hand is "Top, Blue Land, Ponder, any 4 other cards," I think leading with Top over Ponder is incorrect just about always.

    If you have Counterbalance in hand, and no other land, it should be obvious that drawing that next land is more likely with Ponder.

    If you have Counterbalance in hand, and the second land to cast it, Ponder allows you to set up the card that will be on top when Counterbalance resolves for your opponent's turn. After that you'll be resolve Top anyways. Playing Top first here only gives you the option of stacking a 1cc card on top (by drawing with Top), and usually you'd rather have a 2cc card on top to stop Tarmogoyf/Counterbalance/etc from your opponent.

    If you don't have Counterbalance in hand, and no other land, Ponder helps you find the Counterbalance & Land to go with the Top (or the land to go with the 2cc spell in your hand). If you have the second land, it find the appropriate 2cc spell to play on turn 2, or the Force of Will to shut down your opponent's turn 1 play.

    I think you really want to play Ponder immediately, if you don't have Counterbalance immediately, it's unlikely you're won't have resolved SDT by the time you've drawn and can play Counterbalance. If your deck didn't have Counterbalance, and you had that opening hand, would there be any reason to ever lead with SDT in Legacy? The only acceptable reasons seem to be "because I know for a fact my opponent is playing Duress/Thoughtseize" or "I'm on the draw and I know for a fact my opponent has 4 Counterbalance in his/her deck."

  11. #11
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    I've actually thought about writing an article on how to play with Top, Brainstorm, and Ponder in the same deck. It's actually a really interesting topic.

    I think leading with Top over Ponder is incorrect just about always.
    It's really hard to answer this question without specifics about your hand and your deck. However, I disagree, somewhat. It does depend completely on the rest of your hand, but I usually like to hold on to Ponder for its shuffle effect.

    Say I'm playing UGBW Threshold, and I start with one Blue land, Top, Ponder, Daze, and some other cards (though, to be honest, it really does depend on what these other cards are, but I'll ignore them for simplicity's sake). On the draw, if I don't draw a land, I'll often lead with Ponder. If I'm on the play, I'll lead with Top. Obviously, this means I have the intention to Daze the opponent's play, which would set me back a land drop, anyway, so finding the second land a turn later doesn't hurt at all. This leaves me with two choices on my second turn: Ponder during my turn, or Top at the end of my opponent's turn. (Again, for simplicity's sake, let's just assume we're goldfishing). Often, it is actually best to use Top, for a couple of reasons. There are going to be two cases when using Ponder/Top:
    1. A land is one of the three cards on top of your library. In this case, using Top is much better.
    2. A land is not one of the three cards on top of your library. In this case, it is best to use Ponder to shuffle, giving you two draws to find a second land (again, depending on your hand, you might want to Top during your Upkeep. If you're hand is full of one drops, then you want to Top during your Upkeep. Though if you need to cast something like Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance, then you're actually better off just hoping to rip the land (assuming you didn't draw it off of Ponder)).

    However, you usually don't know if there is or is not a land on top. What you do know, however, is what cards are good and bad against the deck you're facing. (Again, this completely depends on the rest of your hand). Using Top let's you see what cards are coming up before Ponder forces you to either shuffle them away, or keep them on top. If there is no land on top, but you've played a Tundra and have, say, two Swords to Plowshares on top of your library against some Aggro deck, you might just stick with the one-land for the moment. Using Ponder in that situation is a waste. Obviously, that is an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point - often times, using Top gives you more flexibility.

    That was assuming, of course, you were on the play and did Daze the opponent's play.

    Being on the draw is completely different. In that case, leading with Ponder is often better for ensuring you hit the second land.

    Furthermore, Stephen Menendian has some useful guidelines when to use Ponder or Brainstorm that he wrote about here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/15931.html

    If you don't have Premium, what he basically said was this:

    -If you are digging for a specific card (say, Painter's Servant, for example), Ponder is better
    -If your hand is really good, play Ponder
    -If your hand is really bad, play Brainstorm
    -If you don't have another shuffle effect, playing Brainstorm first is better

    There is so much more to say on the whole "Playing with Top/Ponder/Brainstorm" stuff. It's fascinating. Though, I don't feel like writing anymore right now. I hope that's a good start.

    *edit*I reread what freakish wrote, and I am in agreement with him when it comes to Counterbalance. If you need to get Counterbalance down, then you want to Ponder. That is assuming you don't have/don't play (on your opponent's turn) Daze.

    *edit* I'll answer Versus's specific questions later.

  12. #12
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Quote Originally Posted by undone View Post
    This seems simple but really it means using cantrips to find answers and top to find combo peices (Because combo peices can be found slower and you need to answer threats NOW)
    This is how I played last night against a few decks and worked like a charm. I did my best to keep them at bay until I could get the CB lock in place. Once that was down I resolved a Bob an just drew cards like crazy until I had enough mana to play both Servant, Stone, it's activation cost, and extra just in case of any surprises.

    Omega: I upped the 2cc cards (from 8 to 12) in the deck to support CB better and the results were positve, thanks!

    freakish and KrzyMoose: Thanks for all of that! Very informative. I played a mess of games last night and was finally able to get a feel for what to do and when. After reading both of your posts (multiple times) I see I was on the right track, but did make a couple of decisions that weren't optimal. For one, I'm not really there as far as anticipating what to keep on top in a given situation. Most times I was able to have 1 and 2 cc spells within the top 3 cards, but also had available mana to switch them in responce to an opponents spell. There will be times when I'm tapped out. I need to be mindful of what the most likely cc my opponent will play at that point is and prepare for it accordingly. In other words say I Top at EOT and reveal a land/Top/Goyf. I would tempted to grab the Goyf and play him myself, when most likely the best play is to take the one of the others during my draw step and leave the Goyf in order to counter theirs. Again, it would all depend on the situation at hand.
    In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.

  13. #13

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Good to hear :)

    But you might want to play more, depending on your metagame. But usually, 12+ is a good number

    Robert

  14. #14
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    I did change things around again. I was still too 1cc heavy. Before i upped the 2cc to 12 I had like 24 1cc spells in there. I was a Chalice's wet dream. I think I have a better (ahem) balance now. Thanks again for the help!
    In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.

  15. #15
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Quote Originally Posted by KrzyMoose View Post
    It does depend completely on the rest of your hand, but I usually like to hold on to Ponder for its shuffle effect.
    Yes, Ponder's shuffle effect can be helpful. In general however in a deck with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top you're already running 8 fetchlands. So if you "give up" one of your shuffle effects early, you still have 11 more in your deck, some of which you want to see in order to hit your land drops. Holding a Ponder for the sake of "not giving up your shuffle effect" is incorrect (assuming your deck is built correctly and actually has a sufficient density of cards you want to draw and play in it).

    Say I'm playing UGBW Threshold, and I start with one Blue land, Top, Ponder, Daze, and some other cards ... On the draw, if I don't draw a land, I'll often lead with Ponder. If I'm on the play, I'll lead with Top. Obviously, this means I have the intention to Daze the opponent's play, which would set me back a land drop, anyway, so finding the second land a turn later doesn't hurt at all.
    Why is it better to play the Top here instead of the Ponder?

    Playing Ponder immediately still allows you to Daze your opponent's first turn play, provided the Ponder doesn't present you with a better option.

    If, in a game, you aren't actively playing in such a way to increase your options relative to your opponent's options (either by doing something like playing Stroke of Genius on yourself to increase your options, or by playing something like Mind Twist on your opponent to decrease their options), then you are playing incorrectly. If you build your deck such that it cannot either create more options for you or less options for your opponent, you've built your deck incorrectly. This is why not playing Flash at GP Columbus was a mistake. Resolving Flash immediately created a game state which resulted in an infinitely larger number of options for you than for your opponent (because your opponent had zero options due to losing the game). Other decks at that tournament simply could not reduce their opponents options to zero as fast as Flash could, nor could they actively increase their own options in such a way as to provide the necessary answers that the metagame required you play or lose.

    Given your 4 cards in your hypothetical hand (Daze, Land, Top, Ponder) and 3 other cards at random, we have the following two options:

    Play Top, holding Daze (this increases your options in the "late game" when you have mana to activate Top)
    Play Ponder (this immediately increases your options). This still leaves Daze as an option.

    If we know our opponent can't take the Top out of our hand on their first turn then playing Top is incorrect. Ponder immediately increases our options.

    If we Ponder into Counterbalance, land, random card we immediately have been presented with an additional option to consider (over Dazing our opponent's first turn play) that we wouldn't have been presented with if we played Top.

    If we Ponder into Land, Goyf, Random card we immediately have been presented with an additional option to consider (over Dazing our opponent's first turn play).

    Ponder shows us 3 cards, and no matter what (barring it getting countered, which is terrible Force of Will from our opponent), put another card in our hand immediately. In comparison Top requires us to wait. In a long game a single Top will give us more options than a single Ponder ever will by optimizing the top of our deck. Given that we don't know how long the game will be and that we have the mana to play and activate Top by the time we draw the last card we saw with Ponder playing Top here is wrong (again unless we know for a fact that there's a large chance that it won't be in our hand because of Duress/Thoughtseize).

    If our opponent has a turn 1 Wasteland or Sinkhole for our land Top is clearly wrong as Ponder would have given us a far better chance to see another land.

    If they have a nutty combo hand (that Daze alone can't stop), Top was clearly wrong as Ponder would have given us greater chances to see Force of Will.

    If the top 3 cards of our library are so bad that we want to shuffle them away with Ponder, then clearly Top was wrong.

    I could continue on end about this as far as turn 1 plays go.


    Now, if the top 3 cards of our library are "so-so" and don't present us with a relevant option to weigh against "just Daze my opponent's turn 1 play no matter what" we haven't lost anything besides a shuffle effect that hypothetically could have been used later by playing Ponder over Top. Again, we have roughly 11 more shuffle effects in our deck, and assuming you've built your deck correctly you should be content with most of the cards you draw. The vast majority of the time, you won't be kicking yourself thinking "nuts, I totally wasted that suhffle effect!" You're much more likely to kick yourself thinking "nuts, I totally could have Ponder'd and ripped Force of Will for that retarded opening hand" or "nuts, I totally could have Ponder'd, and been playing Counterbalance/Goyf/Confidant/Werebear/Painter's Servant/Lim-Dul's Vault/etc on turn 2 instead of waiting another turn and giving my opponent a Time Walk" or "nuts, I could have Ponder'd and drawn a different answer than Daze that didn't set me back a land drop."

    Seeing as how I think I've sufficiently argued why leading with Ponder here is correct, I won't bother addressing any of the rest of your post as it assumes you led with Top over Ponder.

  16. #16
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Interesting. Mind if I give you another scenario?

    Top/Ponder/FoW/Confidant/Daze/Fetch/Blue land

    Now with the following hand, is Ponder still the right decision for the first turn play? You have your first two land drops, you have a solid turn 2 play, and you have FoW back-up. If not Top, Would you still lead with Ponder? Would you Brainstorm at EOT knowing you have the shuffle effect? Even with that hand is digging for CB still the right answer? I guess I can sumarize all of that by asking if setting up CB/Top ASAP is always of the utmost importance?
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  17. #17
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Interesting. Mind if I give you another scenario?

    Top/Ponder/FoW/Confidant/Daze/Fetch/Blue land
    That certainly makes things interesting.

    Two questions for this hard are:

    Play or draw?
    Number of blue cards left in your deck (ie, liklihood of seeing one in the top 3)?

    I would say that if you're on the play, and are fairly certain you'll see a blue card in the top 3, that you'd still want to play Ponder first here.

    Confidant is obviously a very strong turn 2 play (and will likely be our play). However I think Counterbalance is a stronger turn 2 play (given that we have Top in hand), and if we're pretty sure we'll see a blue card (to replace the Ponder to pitch to Force for double counters) then why not give ourselves the chance to see Counterbalance?

    There are less decks that can recover against Top + Counterbalance + Confidant than there are decks that can recover against just Confidant and Top.

    Over the course of a single turn, Ponder is more powerful (it costs one less, it allows you to shuffle, it isn't stopped by Pithing Needle/Stifle/Krosan Grip, etc) than SDT. Over the course of most games SDT will yield more selection due to the fact that it's repeatable. But so long as we're only concerned about this single, first turn, and optimizing it, why wouldn't we lead with the more powerful card and then proceed to use the "long term" powerhouse when we have the time and mana to utilize it to it's fullest advantage (which requires lots of mana)?

    On the draw, I'd consider Top first given that we could be up against a Counterbalance + back up hand. In the event our opponent resolves Counterbalance, we want to have already resolved Top.

    If you don't think you're likely to see a blue card in your top 3 (I'll leave the math to you), then I wouldn't play Ponder first, as you want both Force and Daze active in the event you have to try and push Confidant through, or keep Goyf/Counterbalance from your opponent from resolving.


    As I said, I think it's "almost always" incorrect to lead with SDT over Ponder, but there will always be some hands, and some opponents that warrant a closer look.

  18. #18
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    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    But so long as we're only concerned about this single, first turn, and optimizing it, why wouldn't we lead with the more powerful card and then proceed to use the "long term" powerhouse when we have the time and mana to utilize it to it's fullest advantage
    Ah, I think this says it perfectly. Baring any reason to get Top into play immediately (as per your example of being on the draw or facing discard), it would make sense to optimize the current turn while at the same time keeping the late game in perspective.

    I'm always amazed how just one turn can be so diverse. I think I take Magic for granted sometimes. I've played control decks in the past, but almost always perferred aggro. More often than not the decks I choose basically play themselves. Not that multiple decisions won't present themselves depending upon future draws or what your opponent does, but normally I look at my hand, check for 2 mana sources, a first and second turn play, removal, and that's it, "I'll keep!".

    Reading your analysis of that theoretical turn really turns on a light in my head that I need to be more mindful of what I'm doing when I play. For instance...

    If you don't think you're likely to see a blue card in your top 3 (I'll leave the math to you), then I wouldn't play Ponder first, as you want both Force and Daze active
    Forget what I would do as far as the opening hand play, but assuming I did decide to Ponder here, I would probably overlook this fact. I would be mindful of having a blue card (Daze) to pitch to FoW if Ponder didn't yeild another, but not even taking into consideration that by not drawing another, I would be wasting the option of having two counters if I was forced to pitch Daze to FoW. That would be a mistake on my part.
    In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.

  19. #19

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    I just finished an event playing UGw Threshold. I found playing Ponder first to be the correct play if I have access to both Brainstorm. I'll grant that there may be clear exceptions to the rule, however Ponder just gives you access to the answer you're looking for. I found holding Brainstorm to be good for two reasons. First, Brainstorm at end of turn after a Ponder is always good. Also, if I have a 3, 4, 5 casting cost card and I have Countertop active, being able to drop that card on the top and use Counterbalance is the best play. I guess I would save Brainstorm on the off chance you need to place something on the top.

    In otherwords, say I drop a first turn top. I also have a BS and/or Ponder in my opening hand as well. On your turn 2, would you untap your single land and immediately spin the top before your draw step or would draw normally and then Ponder/BS assuming you have to dig?

    I would drop the second land and cast Ponder for a few reasons. If you're playing Threshold, Ponder is another card in the Graveyard. Second, lets say you spin the top and peek at the top 3 cards. You'll get to draw the card that you want and its not a bad play per say. I found myself done that this weekend. However if you have Ponder in hand and Top on the board. Draw for turn and then Ponder and here is why its the best play. Drawing for turn and then using Ponder is good because the play will get two cards for one mana and the best card selection possible out of the top four cards of your library. It is possible to spin the top, draw for turn, lay land for turn then Ponder, however its the weaker of the two plays since it will cost you two mana rather than just drawing for turn and then casting Ponder. Following the first play will leave a land open for anything from Duress/Thoughtseize, Swords to Plowshare, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt ect.

    I think in most cases the question of whether to play Top depends on a few things. Cards in hand is always a bit difficult because without protection, a destroyed Top can be somewhat painful. On the other hand, look at what you're opponent is playing as well. That usually will determine if you're going to Top vs Ponder. However I think if you have the protection, one should cast the top first and save Ponder for a later cast.

  20. #20

    Re: Counter-Top strategy

    I'm a little surprised that we haven't seen Arcane Laboratory maindeck with Counter-Top more in the existing meta. Particularly in Landstill-ish themes that are going to drop their threats without using up the one cast per turn.

    Counter-Top gives good card advantage as it is and it'd be really abusive in an environment in which people could not remove it and then cast what they wanted to. Removing Arcane Laboratory would give the opponent the ability to then make a play for Counterbalance if they have the goods to go 2x anti-enchantment in a turn.

    Think of all the decks that are just hosed by Arcane Laboratory-Counterbalance: TES, Dreadstill, FT, Threshold (resolving a threat would be very hard), Aluren, anything relying on Pernicious Deed to sweep (will never get it to land without being able to Therapy beforehand or back it with counters as it is resolving), any mono-color aggro theme that wants to disrupt and resolve a threat in the same turn to take advantage of tempo, any MUC deck that is planning to win a counter battle somewhere along the way and sumo a win off of it.

    Throw in the possibility of keeping an Arcane Laboratory, Krosan Grip, Intuition or other 3cc card topdeck to counter Wipe Away and Krosan Grip and you probably have a really nasty controllish semi-lock that eats a lot of the major contenders alive if it lives to turn 4.

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